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How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
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   Author  Topic: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?  (Read 1432 times)
Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #80 on: Dec 23rd, 2009, 10:08pm »
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on Dec 22nd, 2009, 7:53am, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Matt:
 
What the CNJ and LV did was a start in the right direction-unfortunately, it wasn't enough.  However, that is what I had in mind, or what the LV did when CNJ pulled out of Pennsylvania in the early 1970s.

 
Agreed. And if NJT had followed Rev_Matt's idea of extending path down the CNJ main, it might have been possible for LV to absorb and rationalize the rest of the CNJ system.  
 
on Dec 22nd, 2009, 7:53am, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I'm not saying that Conrail style cutbacks were necessary at the time, although that's what may have happened anyway even if Conrail had never come into existence. As an example, would it not have been possible for the PRR and Reading to combine or coordinate their respective Shamokin branch operations and reduce trackage at the same time?

 
IIRC, Pennsy and Reading were serious rivals from Harrisburg to New Jersey. I don't know if they would have been as amicable as LV and CNJ were.  
 
 
on Dec 22nd, 2009, 7:53am, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but didn't the B&O have an ownership interest in the Reading and/or the CNJ at one time?  If that is the case, perhaps it would have made sense for the B&O to have taken completely over.  This would have begun to accomplish what I suggested in my previous post, a financially stronger road coming in.

 
Yes, the B&O owned an interest in the Reading, which in turn had a stake in CNJ onwership. The only problem with a B&O takeover of Reading/CNJ is that it would have precluded a C&O/NYC merger, since Chessie ultimately would have controlled two routes into the greater New York City market. I don't think the ICC would have allowed that to happen, especially if the Penn Central merger happened first.  
 
 
on Dec 22nd, 2009, 7:53am, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
In fact, if we go back to Robert Young's idea for a moment, doing that in the 1950s wouldn't that have also resolved the anthracite road problem before it really got bad in the 1970s?

 
It would depend on where the Erie, the DL&W and LV fit into the merger picture. Interestingly, the Van Swearingen brothers had proposed a merger of the C&O, Erie, Nickel Plate and Pere Marquette during the 1920s. The entire RRing in the picture in the East would have been drastically different if that 4 way merger had been allowed to happen.  Among othe things, either the DL&W or the LV would have died a quick death with the loss of the Nickel Plate gateway in Buffalo.
 
I'm also surpised that the New york Central never made a serious attempt to acquire either the DL&W or LV (before 1930) as a means to gain entry into anthracite country.  
 
 
on Dec 22nd, 2009, 7:53am, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
And isn't it the case Young's idea is accomplished through the Conrail breakup in the 90s?

 
Yes, it was.  
 
 
 
 
 
   
 


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #81 on: Dec 24th, 2009, 7:44am »
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Matt -  
 
Excellent analysis and "op-ed" piece in your detailed work!
 
on Dec 23rd, 2009, 10:08pm, Matthew_Langworthy wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...I'm also surpised that the New york Central never made a serious attempt to acquire either the DL&W or LV (before 1930) as a means to gain entry into anthracite country...  

On this point? Not to forget the "Celebrity Death Match" precedent. J. P. Morgan resolved all of it with his Ruling (much stronger than any established Court)  
and Order: N Y C shall not extend across Pennsylvania to raid the Pittsburgh market. P R R shall not acquire the West Shore for incursions into New York  
State points.
 
I agree. The complex scenarios described in your comments with a result that both L V and D L & W "...hung out to dry..."
 
BTW. Where's the published work that actually details the realities of the who held what control in the entire B & O - RDG - C N J matter? Didja' ever notice  
so much of the observed C N J hardware and rolling stock looked like it all came from B & O Mount Clare Shops?
 
................Vern...............


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Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #82 on: Dec 24th, 2009, 5:26pm »
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Vern, neither the DL&W nor LV came close to the Pittsburgh market... so the NYC certainly could have made a bid for one of them. Methinks something else was in play that convinced NYC to steer clear of purchasing an anthracite line.
 
Furthermore, JP Morgan's edict eventually became a moot point anyway. The Pennsy acquired trunk lines (and worked with NKP) to compete against the NYC in both Buffalo and Cleveland. Similarly, NYC had active branchlines reaching down into southwestern PA (though not Pittsburgh proper). Some of the latter branchlines are operated by RJ Corman today.  
 
Thanks for the kind words.


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Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #83 on: Dec 24th, 2009, 5:44pm »
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on Dec 24th, 2009, 7:44am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

I agree. The complex scenarios described in your comments with a result that both L V and D L & W "...hung out to dry..."
 
BTW. Where's the published work that actually details the realities of the who held what control in the entire B & O - RDG - C N J matter? Didja' ever notice  
so much of the observed C N J hardware and rolling stock looked like it all came from B & O Mount Clare Shops?
 
................Vern...............

 
A good background history on B&O's interest in the Reading and CNJ:  
1. http://jcrhs.org/B&O.html
2. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/cnj.html
3. http://jerseycentrallines.webs.com/cnjpaoperationshistory.htm
 
I hope this helps!  
 
 


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Henry
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #84 on: Dec 25th, 2009, 11:58am »
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on Dec 24th, 2009, 5:26pm, Matthew_Langworthy wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Vern, neither the DL&W nor LV came close to the Pittsburgh market... so the NYC certainly could have made a bid for one of them. Methinks something else was in play that convinced NYC to steer clear of purchasing an anthracite line.
 
Furthermore, JP Morgan's edict eventually became a moot point anyway. The Pennsy acquired trunk lines (and worked with NKP) to compete against the NYC in both Buffalo and Cleveland. Similarly, NYC had active branchlines reaching down into southwestern PA (though not Pittsburgh proper). Some of the latter branchlines are operated by RJ Corman today.  
 
Thanks for the kind words.    

 
Matt,
 
The NYC was in Pittsburgh through the P&LE and the PMcK&Y (NYC & P&LE joint venture) and through the P&LE, the Monongahela and Montour RRs. NYC had full control over the P&LE before 1890. Unlike in Philadelphia, NYC was well represented in the Pittsburgh area.
 
PRR's presence in Buffalo and Rochester was quite marginal compared to that of the NYC. The line to Rochester was more of a branchline operation than anything. The "Buffalo Line" was a pretty heavy duty main that hauled a lot of coal, but it had/has some serious grades south of Olean to contend with. There was no New York to Buffalo competition to speak of between the NYC and PRR. The PRR line from Buffalo to Pittsburgh (joint double-track with NKP from Buffalo to Brocton, NY) was another marginal operation with a roundabout route and didn't survive into PC.
 
PRR's Cleveland & Pittsburgh (C&P) was and is a heavy duty double track main line, but aside from competing with NYC's P&LE for steel industry based traffic, it didn't represent any sort of threat to NYC as part of a through line. The spirit of the Morgan agreement remained intact.
 
Henry


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #85 on: Dec 25th, 2009, 2:41pm »
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Matt -  
 
on Dec 24th, 2009, 5:26pm, Matthew_Langworthy wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...Vern, neither the DL&W nor LV came close to the Pittsburgh market... so the NYC certainly could have made a bid for one of them...   

I knew that! <G> To "sound bite" it, though, D L & W and L V both easily characterized as Class 1 Regionals, serving North Jersey -  
Eastern PA - BUF/ RCR corridors. Odd how N Y C avoided either? Had they sold themselves too well on the merits of its Water  
Level Route
? I'll conjecture here and suggest: As the I C C didn't seem to "get it" about most serious conditions in the Northeast,  
it could have imagined some reason to stop any N Y C proposal...
 
Note reference to History, Penna. Turnpike, at (4.1) in link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Turnpike#History
Also, account of South Pennsylvania RR, including J. P. Morgan involvement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Pennsylvania_Railroad
 
The importance of all of it, the course of events did very much shape the Railroad Map. The J. P. Morgan agreement apparently  
ca. 1885. So, by the era of the decline of the Eastern Penna. and Eastern Lines, the deal little more than a historical footnote.  
In addition, I can't read the late Mr. Morgan's mind. My perceptions are, clearly, moves to avert ruinous competitive ventures by both  
P R R and N Y C. Also, the "feeling" (of sorts) where Morgan enforced thinking, largely about routes between NY/NJ Metro and Pittsburgh  
(for P R R), and Buffalo (for N Y C)...
 
Henry (@ today's #84) documents what I noted as operating realities when I was in Buffalo in the 1960s. I'll suppose one factor we  
haven't touched on all that much was presence of WAB at BUF. It was an oddity on the I C C Maps, as it bypassed CGO, passed the  
"Chinese Wall" of the River, and served KCY and OMA...
 
BTW. Many Thanks for suggested B & O readings!
 
....................Vern...............


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photoman475
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #86 on: Dec 26th, 2009, 3:53pm »
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Vern:
 
The Wabash didn't exactly bypass Chicago.  While it's true that the main line was Buffalo-Detroit-Decatur-Kansas City, they also had two ways to reach Chicago from that main line.  Those routes would be from Montpelier, Ohio to Chicago via Gary, Ind., or the main line from Decatur to Chicago.
 
My source is the map on page 138 of Schafer's "More Classic American Railroads".
 
While it's not the best route from Buffalo to Chicago, it does work.  And I'd agree that the Wabash's main line can be a great way to avoid Chicago if you are routing traffic east that has to go to, say, to New England, or vice-versa.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #87 on: Dec 26th, 2009, 4:58pm »
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Alan  -
 
Ya' got me! <G> With my somewhat cryptic style, my note did let a reader infer no Chicago service via WAB. Such was not the case,  
of course...
 
My remark based on some experience of actual routing of carloads ex Buffalo (North Tonawanda), largely all for the West Coast. Routings  
of preference were: 1) NYC - Streator - ATSF, 2) WAB - KCY - ATSF BYD, or OMA - UP BYD, or 3) (Choose one here): NYC - PRR - WAB -  
NKP - B&O - STL - MoP/ T&P/ Espee, or STL - SSW/ Espee...
 
Needless to say, I had a great time doing it. I had any number of rail guys calling on me. ATSF was excellent in providing empties for  
loading. I knew the game, and routed loads for receipt at Streator...
 
I used to have a marvelous time, too, with occasional WP empties, for load to Bay Area. These received the "Gould Empire" treatment:  
BUF - WAB - STL - MoPac - DEN - D&RGW - SLC - WP - Bay Area...
 
Also occasionally relied on the trick of routing via STL, then UP (Kansas Pacific) BYD. In addition, the old ROCK ISLAND was still in  
good shape, and I would route those loads to The Rock at CGO. Or, I did not "short route" a carrier providing needed empty car. The
singular odd routing involved a CNJ DF empty for the Coast. I called and inquired of the serving B&O agent: Are you sure you want to  
do this with a CNJ?
 
..................Vern............


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Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #88 on: Dec 27th, 2009, 6:08pm »
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on Dec 25th, 2009, 11:58am, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)

PRR's presence in Buffalo and Rochester was quite marginal compared to that of the NYC. The line to Rochester was more of a branchline operation than anything. The "Buffalo Line" was a pretty heavy duty main that hauled a lot of coal, but it had/has some serious grades south of Olean to contend with. There was no New York to Buffalo competition to speak of between the NYC and PRR. The PRR line from Buffalo to Pittsburgh (joint double-track with NKP from Buffalo to Brocton, NY) was another marginal operation with a roundabout route and didn't survive into PC.

 
Thanks, Henry. I didn't include the Rochester branch for the reason you cite.  
 
By the same token, Pennsy reached the anthracite fields via a branchline as well. I don't see where a NYC acquisition of either the Lackawanna or LV would have been in violation of Morgan's edict. It should also be noted that Morgan died in 1913. His son didn't have the same clout, so I still think something else convinced NYC to steer clear of the anthracite business.      


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Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #89 on: Dec 27th, 2009, 6:21pm »
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An interesting tidbit, courtesy of the Erie Lackawanna Historical Society:
 
By the late 1930's the New York Central had purchased 25 percent of the Lackawanna's stock, giving it working - but unexercised - control of the DL&W. During World War Two the Lackawanna merged a number of its subsidiaries and leased lines for tax purposes. After the war the Lackawanna began to purchase Nickel Plate stock with an eye to possible merger, but Nickel Plate and New York Central were both opposed to it.
 
This is where the story takes an interesting turn, because Pennsy began acquiring LV stock around in the 1920s. From http://fglk.railfan.net/history.html:
 
After a long struggle, 1928 saw The Pennsylvania Railroad win out over The New York Central for stock control of The Lehigh Valley.
 
I'm starting to think that Pennsy actively worked to block NYC from expanding into the anthracite fields. Hmmm....


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #90 on: Dec 28th, 2009, 8:56am »
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Matt -  
 
And, so, the unending problems with "what if" exercises, or even plain reading of historical records. We can't know the  
thinking of the players!
 
Concerning the stock purchases (and other instruments, I'll guess) of targets, D L & W and L V. We agree that, by the  
time, J. P. Morgan was gone...
 
A comparative, perhaps the latter deals were more of quid pro quo exercises? Compare, the ca. 1885 disputes involved  
proposed build of an all new line, North Jersey to Pittsburgh. Also, by later date, a Federal structure of Anti Trust law.  
That would have worked to bar common control of D L & W and L V.  
 
So, who knows? The story later became all the more bizarre, with N Y C and P R R, the earlier "Odd Couple" sharing  
the same household!
 
........................Vern....................


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Henry
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #91 on: Dec 28th, 2009, 1:01pm »
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I was going to mention the NYC ownership of DL&W stock, but it slipped my mind while posting. There was an awful lot of swapping of spit between many RRs after management control was regained from the USRA.
 
As for the death of Morgan, the major banking houses continued to exert substantial influence over railroads as they were the RRs primary source of capital while government regulation started turning the screws ever tighter on both the income and "outgo" sides of RR ledgers. Herb Harwood's Invisible Giants about the Cleveland's NKP/C&O/PM/MP Van Sweringens offers an interesting peek into the bankers' side of things a couple of decades later. Bankers were also often prominent members of RRs Board of Directors. Daughen & Binzen's The Wreck of the Penn Central and Grant's Erie Lackawanna: The Death of an American Railroad are two more good ones.
 
Vern: WAB was indeed an oddity. It might have been very interesting if the Vans had managed to gobble it up instead of its becoming a poor stepchild of the Pennsy. I'm sure a lot of the maneuvering was quid pro quo, but you could never tell which way the wind was blowing with the government. The USRA and ICC seemed to be somewhat at odds over the Sherman act after WWI. There was a lot of noise from the government about merging roads into larger systems, but when some tried moving in that direction (like GN/NP/CB&Q) the ICC said NO! If the consolidation movement had really gained traction in the Roaring '20s, things might look quite different today, at least east of the Mississippi. In some cases, like the NYC/DL&W, I think the RRs were more interested in exerting influence via installed directors than outright merger. There was also the defensive factor, ie preventing a competitor from siphoning off traffic through their own ownership influence over a third party RR or via a strategic alliance. A lot of it was related to the cartel mentality that prevailed after WWI, which brings us back to maintaining the status quo through quid pro quo.
 
Henry


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #92 on: Dec 28th, 2009, 1:45pm »
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Henry -  
 
Looks good! I think we have a Transport Regulation draft copy going here!
 
Indeed! One can't overlook the growing presence of the I C C Finance Case mechanisms, and the collateral "Trust Busting" enthusiasm on  
part of U S DoJ - Anti Trust. If the one Agency didn't get an applicant, the other one could! The "friendly Director" ploy, I'll guess nominally  
urged by a sponsor Bank, rather a good gimmick that wouldn't trigger Government oversight...
 
Examples: Think how much "paper" of the railroads was out there and held by New York based "Manny Hanny" and "Chemical"...
 
Side Note: In my Car Routing Wonderland I recalled here earlier, I completely overlooked the viable E - L on BUF - STL (or CGO) routings.  
E - L could, and did, provide good fifty (50) foot DF Cars, as need, for long loading. Ordinarily, I would keep cars out of CGO interchange...
 
...................Vern...............


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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #93 on: Dec 28th, 2009, 5:34pm »
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on Dec 28th, 2009, 8:56am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Matt -  
 
And, so, the unending problems with "what if" exercises, or even plain reading of historical records. We can't know the  
thinking of the players!
 
Concerning the stock purchases (and other instruments, I'll guess) of targets, D L & W and L V. We agree that, by the  
time, J. P. Morgan was gone...
 
A comparative, perhaps the latter deals were more of quid pro quo exercises? Compare, the ca. 1885 disputes involved  
proposed build of an all new line, North Jersey to Pittsburgh. Also, by later date, a Federal structure of Anti Trust law.  
That would have worked to bar common control of D L & W and L V.  
 
So, who knows? The story later became all the more bizarre, with N Y C and P R R, the earlier "Odd Couple" sharing  
the same household!
 
........................Vern....................

 
I think I have found some answers on the subjects we have been discussing and it all boils down to one man: L.F. Loree. According to Jim Shuagnessy's Delaware & Hudson, Loree had been responsbile for the B&O gaining control over the Reading and CNJ when he was president of the B&O. Loree had also spent some time with the Rock Island and the Frisco, but he was apparently aggravated by their weak finances and quit. E.H. Harriman helped Loree gain both the preisdency and chairmanship of the D&H in 1907. Loree held those positions for the next 31 years.  
 
His story gets very interesting in 1925. Loree proposed a new low grade trunk line across Pennsylvania whuch would have been the shortest route of all between NewYork and Chicago. It also would have been the shortest route between New York and St. Louis. To make this happen, Loree proposed to merge the BR&P, LV, Wheeling and Wabash(!) with the D&H. However, the BR&P refused to extend a lease with the D&H. The B&O eventually wound up with the BR&P around 1930. The B&O also worked together with the Nickel Plate and NYC to gain control of the W&LE. The W&LE was eventaully absorbed by the Nickel Plate. Needless to say, Loree's plans couldn't work without those lines. Thus he sold off the D&H's shares in the Wabash and LV to Pennsy in 1928... and used the profits to acquire a 10% share in NYC.
 
Loree did propose several other mega-mergers. One was a 5800 mile super system involving the KCS, MKT and St. Louis Southwestern, but the ICC nixed that one. His final attempt was a proposed merger of 17 (yes, seventeen) Class 1 RRs, including the B&M, D&H, DL&W, NH and Western Maryland in the fall of 1929... but the Great Depression convinced him to abandon that idea.  
 
The picture is now a bit clearer for me. It looks like there were more players in the NYC vs. Pennsy battle than meets the eye, with the D&H and B&O having alot to do with the final picture in the pre-World War II era.      


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JohnPatrick
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #94 on: Jan 3rd, 2010, 1:19am »
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Can anyone direct us to a source that would tell us how much (what %) of the Reading's stock was owned by the B&O?  Or how much of the CNJ was owned by the RDG?  Or how much of the L&HR was owned by the RDG and the CNJ?
 
The B&O (including WM) at one point might have had control of the Alphabet Route east of Pittsburgh.


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photoman475
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #95 on: Jan 3rd, 2010, 7:14am »
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Matt:
 
Wasn't Loree also president-or hold some other high corporate position-with the KCS concurrent with his D&H presidency?
 
Alan


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Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #96 on: Jan 3rd, 2010, 9:10pm »
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on Jan 3rd, 2010, 7:14am, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Matt:
 
Wasn't Loree also president-or hold some other high corporate position-with the KCS concurrent with his D&H presidency?

 
Delaware & Hudson by Shaughnessy says Loree was chairman of the KCS in 1926 but gives very little detail about it (except for the proposed mega-merger involving KCS).  
 
Another interesting item- the C&O was controlled by both NYC and Pennsy at the beginning of the 1900s but the parent RRs were forced to divest themselves of control under anti-trust regulations in 1908. It is interesting to realize that that the C&O, which became CSX, outlasted both the New York Central and PRR.  


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #97 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 11:55am »
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Matt -  
 
Concerning C & O: It didn't hurt it was a very simple business model, as also the case with N & W...
 
Put the coal in at one end. Take the coal off at the other end. Return the empties. Repeat the cycle. Count the money. Most anything  
else was incidental window dressing. Explains how N & W ran few, but polished and snappy passenger schedules...
 
.....................Vern...............


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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #98 on: Jan 4th, 2010, 9:47pm »
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The D&H also benefitted from a rather simple operational style in its heyday as well. Anthracite was king... and unfettered by commuter traffic, the D&H didn't suffer as badly as its neighbors during business slumps.  

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Best wishes to all,
Matthew L

moderator- D&H, Erie Lackawanna/Erie and LA&L/B&H/WNYP

P.S. All aboard for the last train to Hammondsport!
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