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How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
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   Author  Topic: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?  (Read 1434 times)
Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #60 on: Dec 18th, 2009, 4:25pm »
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on Apr 1st, 2009, 10:47am, ARA18 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Ultiamately what it boils down too, was a lack of foresight bu the big railroads. They should have taken the smaller weaker roads. Even the ICC said this the 1920's (when the regulations should have been lifted, but that's another story). Because the C&O was a huge Appalachian hauler, with large export-coal buiseness, combining the C&O with the NYC made most sense, along with the B&O. Because B&O controlled RDG & CNJ both had to brought under the protective wing of a profitable road, who could have trimmed the unprofitability. Of course another merger that shouldn't have occured is EL. Two loser don't make a winner, they a an even bigger loser. NKP was shelfish and sould have taken in DL&W, then the new railroad (we'll call it Lackawnna & Nickel Plate or L&NP), should have started pressuring the PSCs of NY and NJ to subsidize. The L&NP would have better benfitted both railroads. ERIE, WAB, PRR and NH should have merged, into what would have been an N&W subsidiary, possibly called the New England, Pennsylvania & Chicago (NEP&C). The core message as always is  no PC, at all costs.

 
Thanks for quoting Milton McInnes (i.e. the two losers quip). He was a horrible CEO for EL. I can see your point about the L&NP. That RR would've been a powerhouse. However, it would not have addressed the nagging issue of entirely too much trackage between the NY/PA border and Buffalo. There were 3 such RRs in 1950- Erie, the DL&W and LV. Only the Erie route remains fully intact now... and it runs under capacity. Perhaps an end-to-end merger with ATSF might've saved the Erie... but there is also the problem of decreasing carloads in Buffalo and the Finger Lakes. In the end, combining Erie and the Lackawanna makes the most sense to me.
 
Once upon a time, I thought that an Erie/PRR amalgamation was a good idea but reading about the mergers of the '50s and '60s has convinced me that combining a struggling Erie with Pennsy's rotten management structure and NH's even weaker finances would have been a distastrous reality. Talented RRers like Bill White and Gregory Maxwell would have had no place in the Bevan/Sanders regime... and we would've had the Penn Central fiasco under another name.    


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Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #61 on: Dec 18th, 2009, 4:34pm »
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on Apr 1st, 2009, 11:37am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
ARA18 -
 
Sigh! I have some religious issues with prospect of C&O + NYC...
 
It was Robert R. Young's idea when he was at NYC, he acknowledged as a bit of a P. T. Barnum, and incorrigible promoter! IMHO, he was just  
trying a raid on the C&O cookie jar, to solve massive NYC problems. Yes, indeed, the concept exciting, but why would C&O have wanted any  
"pay the bills" part of it?
 
...................Vern................

 
Apparently not at the time... although I will credit Perlman for being honest in his accounting practices. He (and Bill White before him) also made the controversial move of investing money in modernizing the Central's physical plant. Thus Perlman had a RR that was marginally profitable in the mid 1960s... but it was in good shape overall. The C&O needed to look past the quarterly or monthly balance sheet... and take a look at the long term. Surely, the C&O folks knew the Pennsy was a ticking time bomb. Foisting it off on the hapless NYC makes no sense to me.  
 
Notice that I am referring to Perlman. Robert Young was only involved in the merger discussion for a few years... and committed suicide under the duress. Perlman was the steady hand at the helm of NYC... and he surely deserved better than what he got with the Penn Central.


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photoman475
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #62 on: Dec 19th, 2009, 4:18pm »
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I think you're right about Al Perlman-he did deserve better than PC.  I think his stint at Western Pacific at the end of his career provided a sort of redemption-that he knew what he was doing, while Saunders did not.

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Rev_Matt
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #63 on: Dec 19th, 2009, 5:51pm »
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Being primarily interested in the anthracite railroads that ran through central and northern NJ, I have a hard time coming up with a scenario where all of these roads could have survived without coal remaining the primary energy source for home heating.  Coal is the only thing that justified so many different roads that were almost parallel to each other.  The fate was set at the end of WWII when heating oil and natural gas supplanted coal.  Once that happened there was no need for more than half a dozen railroads to run from the Hudson River to the Scranton, Wilkes Barre, Shamokin, etc... region of Pennsylvania.  
 
That being said, there are a few things I would like to revisit.  They would not have necessarily prevented the flags from falling but would have saved many routes that were lost to us.  Here are a few things I would have done differently.
 
1)  Would have the Port Authority of NY take over the operation of passenger ferries from the CNJ Jersey City Terminal or extend PATH to that area.  Also would have had the government a new Newark Bay Bridge.  Both of these things would have preserved the Jersey Central mainline from Aldene to Jersey City.  This may not have saved the company, but would give both freight and commuter railroads more options.  The CNJ was a five track mainline.  
 
2)  Kept the Lackawanna cutoff.  This was a victim of the political infighting once Conrail was formed.  The NYC people versus the Erie Lackawanna people.  The NYC won.
 
3)  Formed New Jersey Transit in the early sixties.  This would have prevented the abandonment of several lines that NJT wishes they could have back today.  The railroads were begging for a government agency to take over the commuter lines which were unprofitable.
 


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #64 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 7:38am »
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Rev_Matt -
 
Agree with the obvious and vital role of King Coal, as long as it lasted. It was but one commodity group, though, in the vital long time  
"Mix of business" (the Ed Ellis maxim). Declines in Coal, and related traffic, redefined the parameters of the business, and exacerbated  
the cost demands/ revenue structure of the regional commute operations. Add in regulatory agencies that did not deliver timely or  
appropriate responses, and it set the stage for a huge disaster. Or, more succinctly put, the whole of the commute operations demanded  
re-pricing of all of it, to compensatory levels! It did not happen...
 
Further about the specifics you noted:  
 
1) Port Authority: Why not the agency had assumed all Trans Hudson passenger Ferry routes? Would have added ERIE, DL&W and  
West Shore routes?  
 
2) Lackawanna Cutoff: Yes. We received the results of tearing down monuments. Makes the point that ERIE and NYC should  
never have been on the same list to the particular party? Live and learn?
 
3) N J Transit. No! Absolutely not! Much better no "uber gruppe" in charge? The underlying, global assumptions of regulation and pricing  
(fare) had vastly changed. The regulators did not adapt. It worked to destroy the Northeast (read NY/NJ Metro) Railroads.
 
Rather, the railroad would have continued to serve as operators, each under own corporate, investor owned flags? Commute operations  
pricing (fares) at fully compensatory levels. Either sell the tickets at fully priced levels. Or, if presumed "know it all" agencies believed much  
too high, then provide direct operating subsidy in part? (This theory, BTW, likely would have preserved the somewhat "minor player" role  
of, example, NYS&W service.) Bottom line: It would have been more efficient and less costly than the present fix.
 
Somehow, the regulators just wouldn't listen to the acute, mortally wounded conditions of the commute operations. They never elected to  
"...grow up and be an adult..." about any of it. I have long advocated the lines, absent realistic pricing, should have simply embargoed  
commute schedules, and parked the trains.
 
......................Vern.................
 


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photoman475
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #65 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 7:44am »
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Rev. Matt:
 
Your idea for saving the CNJ main sounds familiar, but in my application, in a different location.
 
When the Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee started making noise about going out of business, it was suggested that a government agency be formed to save the line for commuter service.  The idea was rejected and the North Shore died.
 
Funny how a few years later, Metra is formed to take over the commuter problems in the Chicago area!  Some of the old North Shore survived, as the CTA's Skokie Swift line, but it does not run to Milwaukee.  
 
And with all the traffic congestion in Chicago nowadays, the loss of the North Shore and the Chicago, Aurora & Elgin hurts!


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #66 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 9:09am »
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on Dec 20th, 2009, 7:44am, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...When the Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee started making noise about going out of business, it was suggested that a government agency be formed to save the line for commuter service.  The idea was rejected and the North Shore died...  

 
photoman475 -  
 
Excellent "case study" example. Might I suggest all would have been ahead of the game, had a direct subsidy arrangement put  
into place with an independent North Shore Line...
 
Might we infer the "public purpose" was, therefore, not as important as the magnitude of the subsidy amounts? Geez! Monday  
Morning quarterbacking revisited? If only we knew alternatives more costly and inefficient? The unelected "planners" absent good  
track records in calling "good plays" in myriad situations...
 
................Vern............


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photoman475
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #67 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 1:59pm »
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You know, Vern, you can even use greed on the part of the private sector here.  How about the National Bus scandal in the 1950s?  I may be off on the date some, but didn't the Justice Department and Congress do an investigation on this division of General Motors?  
 
National Bus was buying out trolley & interurban lines and replacing them with buses.  They yanked the tracks and overhead on the lines they bought, and funny how these bus companies only had buses made by GM.  Now that many of these trolley-turned-bus companies no longer exist, how much better would the mass transit systems be in these areas if National Bus had not existed?  And the trolley or interurban lines still ran?
 
Pehaps my conclusions are wrong-always a possibility-but how many billions has California spent to replace what used to exist with Pacific Electric?  Or in Minneapolis-St. Paul, with the Hiawatha light rail and the new heavy rail service to Big Lake?
 
Government may very well be short sighted and not act rationally at times, but the private sector and its insistence on adherence to short term profits and lack of accountability are no better.  Do we really need another Enron, or Tyco, or Bernie Madoff?  
 
As a matter of fact, as long as the private sector is determining the allocation of resources to society on the basis of profit and loss, and doing so with thoughts only of this quarter's and next quarter's profit & loss statement to Wall Street, problems like this will continue to crop up-and the recent problems on Wall Street only prove the point.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #68 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 2:33pm »
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photoman475 -
 
Suggest pursuit of your own research of objective sources on the various Anti-Trust cases with respect to GM, NCL, et.al.
 
FWIW, I've made peace with it. Roger Rabbit, et. al. is foolishness. What I think I am perceiving here is ambitious, recently hired DoJ attorneys  
"on the make" to score a huge action against the GM Empire. Rather a real life extrapolation of otherwise harmless law school class exercises.
 
The "landmark case" is a bit of a joke. Finally, what appeared to have been a negotiated settlement, with most nominal fines against defendants.
This strategy saved DoJ public embarassment of loss in a case that had absorbed much department resources. Much like what Gertrude Stein  
said in her insult to Oakland, but considering the DoJ work: "There is no there, there!"  
 
Otherwise, too many collateral issues happening at the same time. The transit equipment industry very cyclical. No surprise the DoJ action  
happened in a low cycle. Otherwise, GM was simply producing excellent product. Other named bad actor, NCL, cutting thru all the nonsense,  
always did best in a secondary market, running middlin' sized fleets. Largely, it wasn't a big city player. The P E story? While in retrospect it  
is quite sad, at the time it was all about, "Have your fare ready when boarding the car!" Whether the fare was ever fully compensatory is another  
matter. Obviously, no one wished to pay the difference. So, why ever should someone in Susanville or Ukiah become mandated to pay their  
"fair share" of a wholly local L.A. issue?...
 
Not to overlook: Privately held operators, in nearly all cases, can do it all better and cheaper.
 
Again, signing off on this hot potato with...
 
...................FWIW..............Vern...............


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photoman475
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #69 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 2:54pm »
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I wasn't diagreeing with you, Vern-just trying to point out that the private sector isn't always the best judge of public interest either!
 
And no, someone in Utah should not be paying for LA's problems.  (They are, indirectly, through federal government & Congressional taxation & reallocation of tax monies, but that is another story.)
 
The whole problem of public transit has been a mess for decades, and I don't see any easy fixes-not that there are any, there aren't-for it.  A government operated and subsidized model, working with private companies, is what we have, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
 
The country as a whole does not have a rational, organized, well-thought out transportation policy.  Having said that, the private sector is still the best mechanism for trying to allocate always scarce resources.  
 
Alan


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #70 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 3:53pm »
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on Dec 20th, 2009, 2:54pm, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...The country as a whole does not have a rational, organized, well-thought out transportation policy.  Having said that, the private sector is still the best mechanism for trying to allocate always scarce resources...    

 
Alan -  
 
(Sigh!) Amen! And, concur! It has always been about the fact there are elections every two years. Whatever it takes to hold the office,  
that is what is said. The original legislation of the Interstate Commerce Act is entirely suspect. It went on to much worse, example,  
Motor Carrier Act, 1935 very much punitive to the railroads, for little real demonstrated excesses, if any at all. "One bill" still makes  
a great deal of sense!...
 
On another note. Take present day public passenger transit! Please! Better, perhaps, we were to contain the egomaniacs with hands  
on the pencils? That is, why is the agency's name on the equipment? Better it remained in hands of a private operator? The latter would  
receive discreet payments for new equipment, some operating costs relief, or whatever. The operator's name would remain on the door,  
and a lot of organization pride would help everything along...
 
...................Vern.............


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Rev_Matt
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #71 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 5:26pm »
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on Dec 20th, 2009, 7:38am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Rev_Matt -
 
Agree with the obvious and vital role of King Coal, as long as it lasted. It was but one commodity group, though, in the vital long time  
"Mix of business" (the Ed Ellis maxim). Declines in Coal, and related traffic, redefined the parameters of the business, and exacerbated  
the cost demands/ revenue structure of the regional commute operations. Add in regulatory agencies that did not deliver timely or  
appropriate responses, and it set the stage for a huge disaster. Or, more succinctly put, the whole of the commute operations demanded  
re-pricing of all of it, to compensatory levels! It did not happen...
 
Further about the specifics you noted:  
 
1) Port Authority: Why not the agency had assumed all Trans Hudson passenger Ferry routes? Would have added ERIE, DL&W and  
West Shore routes?  
 
2) Lackawanna Cutoff: Yes. We received the results of tearing down monuments. Makes the point that ERIE and NYC should  
never have been on the same list to the particular party? Live and learn?
 
3) N J Transit. No! Absolutely not! Much better no "uber gruppe" in charge? The underlying, global assumptions of regulation and pricing  
(fare) had vastly changed. The regulators did not adapt. It worked to destroy the Northeast (read NY/NJ Metro) Railroads
 
  

 
Vern, I agree with much of what you said.  The CNJ was very vulnerable because Tube service did not go to the Jersey City Terminal.  The Erie/Lackawanna did have tube service.  Because of this, today there is passenger service all the way to Port Jervis, Peapack, etc... while there is none in Hunterdon County west of High Bridge.  Neither does Somerset county along the former Reading line.  For sentimental reasons, I would have loved to see every fallen flag survive with diverse motive power flying diverse colors.  But for practical reasons I believe that today we need all of those lines for commuter service and to relieve freight service bottle necks.
 
It appears to me that survival of certain lines and commuter service to far reaching communities depended mostly on whether or not the terminal that served them had diverse means of transporting passengers across the Hudson River or relied on ferries alone.  It had less to do with overall ridership.  So outlying communities along the CNJ and Reading lost passenger service.  
 
Electrifying a portion of the CNJ around the same time the Pennsy did would have allowed the CNJ to run passenger service into lower Manhattan at a time when it was far easier to build a tunnel under the Hudson River.  This would not have utlimately saved the Reading, CNJ and B&O from Conrail, but the former CNJ and Reading lines might have been part of Amtrak.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #72 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 6:05pm »
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Rev_Matt -
 
Good to see your response. The "right answer" of sorts (if there ever is any in "what if" scenarios) being: Who knows?...
 
Present website sources are available (tho, sorry, I don't have the precise links) depicting some near century back thinking that the H & M  
would have surely benefited from a Jersey City "spur" to the CNJ terminal. The site(s) include the diagrams and drawings of the proposed  
construction...
 
We have some "time shifting" issues going on here. IMHO, hard to say whether the rail - ferry joint service was (or was not) optimal for the  
problems at hand. Or, to this day, does it much matter if a "cross platform" change needed to get in and out of Manhattan via all rail? And,  
should Lower Manhattan have services on parity with Mid Town?
 
As I am not resident in NY/NJ area, I'm not about to even try to put together any specifics on possible solutions...
 
...................Vern...............


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Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #73 on: Dec 20th, 2009, 7:11pm »
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on Dec 19th, 2009, 5:51pm, Rev_Matt wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Being primarily interested in the anthracite railroads that ran through central and northern NJ, I have a hard time coming up with a scenario where all of these roads could have survived without coal remaining the primary energy source for home heating.  Coal is the only thing that justified so many different roads that were almost parallel to each other.  The fate was set at the end of WWII when heating oil and natural gas supplanted coal.  Once that happened there was no need for more than half a dozen railroads to run from the Hudson River to the Scranton, Wilkes Barre, Shamokin, etc... region of Pennsylvania.  

 
This is an extension of the issue I brought up previously. Not only did Erie, the DL&W and LV have redundant trackge from the southern Finger Lakes to Buffalo in upstate NY, they also competed for a shrinking pie in anthracite country... where they also had to compete against Reading and CNJ. As with the EL marger in upstate NY, rationalizing the parallel LV and CNJ mainlines into a single entity in Pennsylvania was a good diea. Without the coal traffic, there is no way two mainlines running from Scanton/Wilkes-Barre to Allentown could be profitable. As sentimental as I am for old rail lines (including my beloved LV), some retrenchment was a necessity in that era.  
 
On the other hand, I do wish that MARC-EL had happened. Because the Penn Central problem was so monstrous, the smaller components of Conrail did not got the attention they deserved. More rail would have been saved if former EL/LV/CNJ/RDG lines had been operating without the oversight of the former PC brass.


« Last Edit: Dec 23rd, 2009, 9:51pm by Matthew_L » Logged

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photoman475
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #74 on: Dec 21st, 2009, 3:01pm »
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The rationalization of railroad trackage in anthracite country is something that definately should have been attempted sooner.  The drawback I see is that all of the "players" back there were all about on equal footing-all not very good!  Had one railroad been stronger than the rest, even somewhat stronger, then rationalization could have been attermpted.
 
After all, this is what the CNW was doing when it took over the M&StL and the CGW in the 1960s, and was talking to the MILW at the same time.  Ben Heineman at CNW was doing through the slow ICC merger process what was never really done back east, except for Erie & DL&W merger.  Unlike the eastern roads, the CNW was much more aggresive-in comparison-in trying to get rid of duplicate trackage, especially in Iowa.  There's very little of the the Minnie or the CGW left today.
 
Yes Penn Central was supposed to also get rid of duplicate trackage, but the execs were too busy doing the red team vs. the green team fighting to do anything else.
 
I'd like to think that we'd have more useful trackage today if railroad management had been more creative back in the 1950s and 1960s.  Being more aggresive about branch line abandonments and joint service/traffic rights agreements may not have prevented the eventual abandonment of some trackage, but it may have helped keep lines available that are now gone forever.  And how often does it happen that once a line is pulled out and becomes a biking trail or whatever, it's come back to life with track?  
 


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Matthew_L
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #75 on: Dec 21st, 2009, 9:35pm »
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on Dec 21st, 2009, 3:01pm, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
The rationalization of railroad trackage in anthracite country is something that definately should have been attempted sooner.  The drawback I see is that all of the "players" back there were all about on equal footing-all not very good!  Had one railroad been stronger than the rest, even somewhat stronger, then rationalization could have been attermpted.

 
LV and CNJ did rationalize their two mainlines to a certain extent in the the mid 1960s. It is interesting to note that CNJ's President at the time was Perry Shoemaker, who had basically done the same thing with the Lackawanna a decade earlier.  
 
I do think you have a point about the strength of the anthracite RRs. If LV had been somewhat stronger, it probably could've purchased CNJ outright, thereby eliminating duplicate operations as well as duplicate track.


« Last Edit: Dec 22nd, 2009, 11:03pm by Matthew_L » Logged

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photoman475
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #76 on: Dec 22nd, 2009, 7:53am »
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Matt:
 
What the CNJ and LV did was a start in the right direction-unfortunately, it wasn't enough.  However, that is what I had in mind, or what the LV did when CNJ pulled out of Pennsylvania in the early 1970s.  
 
I'm not saying that Conrail style cutbacks were necessary at the time, although that's what may have happened anyway even if Conrail had never come into existence. As an example, would it not have been possible for the PRR and Reading to combine or coordinate their respective Shamokin branch operations and reduce trackage at the same time?  
 
Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but didn't the B&O have an ownership interest in the Reading and/or the CNJ at one time?  If that is the case, perhaps it would have made sense for the B&O to have taken completely over.  This would have begun to accomplish what I suggested in my previous post, a financially stronger road coming in.
 
In fact, if we go back to Robert Young's idea for a moment, doing that in the 1950s wouldn't that have also resolved the anthracite road problem before it really got bad in the 1970s?  And isn't it the case Young's idea is accomplished through the Conrail breakup in the 90s?


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HwyHaulier
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Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #77 on: Dec 22nd, 2009, 8:12am »
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on Dec 22nd, 2009, 7:53am, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, but didn't the B&O have an ownership interest in the Reading and/or the CNJ at one time?  If that is the case, perhaps it would have made sense for the B&O to have taken completely over.  This would have begun to accomplish what I suggested in my previous post, a financially stronger road coming in...

 
Alan -  
 
Ref. CNJ & RDG: Yes, that was so! I have never been clear as to how pervasive the relationships. Herb Harwood may have  
included detail in his B & O works. Also, the much newer work about Jervis Langdon may have comment.
 
I see you took a "leap of faith" with the Robert Young reference, posing a "what if" had there been one, unified B & O. There  
would, nevertheless, been some hard realities: 1) NY/NJ Harbor operations vastly costly, and 2) B & O was quite cyclical,  
because of importance of coal traffic...
 
.................Vern................


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Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
photoman475
Historian
Posts: 870
Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #78 on: Dec 22nd, 2009, 11:58am »
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Vern-
 
I'm not that familiar with the NY & NJ harbor operations-but I'd think that there is another area where joint agreements would have been helpful.  High costs, sure, that I can beleive-having to operate your own "navy" can't be cheap!
 
I'm not sure that I'd call the Young reference a leap of faith-after all, isn't that what the Conrail breakup accomplished?  The ex-NYC lines ended up in CSX, and the ex-PRR lines ended up in Norfolk Southern?  We ended up with two major systems in the east, which is what Young was calling for.  If I remember correctly, Young was calling for NYC + C&O, and PRR + N&W.


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3448
Re: How would you have changed the fate of the fallen?
 
« Reply #79 on: Dec 22nd, 2009, 1:03pm »
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Alan -  
 
The "leap of faith" remark merely because it if difficult to envision how a more tightly integrated B&O/ RDG/ CNJ could have delivered much  
in way of net savings...
 
"NY/NJ Harbor" is something of shorthand, for the "whole ball of wax" including the commute lines, and costly ferry and rail support. Recall,  
B&O and CNJ had clear and distinct separation. That is, the Staten Island lines a B&O sub. CNJ took care of its own affairs in NJ.
 
.................Vern............


« Last Edit: Dec 22nd, 2009, 1:10pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
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