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Raven Coal article in National Post
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   Author  Topic: Raven Coal article in National Post  (Read 668 times)
thehighwayman
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Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« on: Feb 14th, 2015, 8:15am »
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Although the article does not discuss moving coal by rail, you folks might find it an interesting read ... main focus is on local opposition to the project.
 
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/02/13/opposition-mounts-to-block-new-b-c-mine-as-town-shuns-its-coal-mining-heritage/
 
Will MacKenzie
Flamborough, ON


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Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #1 on: Feb 15th, 2015, 12:36am »
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Will et al,
 
You have to realize that the quoted story was a paid political statement put forth by a sketchy at best site that tends to misconstrue science. The main players do not want the truth to come out around their “I have my piece of paradise so you can’t have yours” so they tend to push misinformation to the extreme. John Snyder and some of his cohorts (two post here) will use every trick in the book to publish misinformation to people who are uneducated enough to not realize they are being lied to.  
 
They have published stories about coal piles exploding, about whole trains of coal bursting into flame while underway, of coal trucks that spread cancer-causing dust along the highways. I believe you are or once were in the Golden Horseshoe area of southern Ontario and have witnessed these phenomenon happening constantly. J The real problem is that people who are not familiar with anything but the wonders of  Wickipeadia will espouse much knowledge and agree that the Raven Project is a terrible problem that pens doom for the shellfish industry along the east coast of Vancouver Island. Not many realize the coal that is over in the Fanny Bay area of the Island is already on the surface and are easily mislead by the Cumberland Mines issues. The coal at present can be seen as one drives the forestry roads already in existence and witness the coal just laying there on the surface. This surface coal is the same coal they claim will cause all the supposed shellfish industry problems. These problems don’t exist now even though the rainwater runs along the exposed surface coal and washes into the ocean. The very area that the detractors claim will destroy the Oyster Beds.  
 
There are those in Port Alberni who also are doing their best to kill the Raven Project and it is all about the view from their homes overlooking the proposed reload area. The coal is planned to be in a covered storage facility with and endless belt delivery system to the ships furthering the shipments. The coal, if approval is given, will arrive in Port Alberni by 100 T B train units that have top and bottom clamshells on the hoppers. This prevents load loss and maximizes truckload weight at arrival. If the railroad gets back into operation then the loads could easily be reassigned to rail. Some think this not true.
 
Their last impassioned argument stems around the coal type designators ranging from metallurgical down to thermal. They base their unknowing claims on the fact that thermal coal types cannot be used in the steel making process. The fact is all coal can be coked and the coke is then used to make iron ore for refinement to steel and the raw coke can also be used to recarbonize a furnace of liquid steel that has blown down to a carbon level too low for the intended purpose.  
 
The fact that I speak from 30+ years of steel making experience means nothing to the wiki knowledge they all have. The last gasp stand for a possible freight source on the E & N and keeping this thing afloat is being killed by people without a clue of what they talk about.  


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #2 on: Feb 15th, 2015, 7:51am »
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Dennis - Lodge Members -
 
Oh, Heavens! Bombard this with facts, will you?  
 
The News article is somewhat sly in its direction. A working theory of, "...Oh! The Horror. the Horror!..." (Apocalypse Now, Marlon Brando):
1) "Coal Buckets" running thru town every fifteen (15) minutes. Well, and IMHO, this would quickly become movements of seven or eight  
axle combinations all the time. The config apparently legal in B.C.
2) Else. Put it on the rail. The line of track can apparently take the loadings. The Mine output would result in daily train of (oh) thirty to thirty  
five cars?
3) The larger Sociology Class issues. By the News item, some fears the town has no enthusiasm to look like the (miserable) little Coal  
communities of a century back? That's understandable. Under current regulations, directives, and so on, it is doubtful it is possible to  
repliciate the look of the dreary coal towns of ages past...
 
"...and that's all I have to say about that..." (Forrest Gump)
 
................................Vern.........................


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thehighwayman
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #3 on: Feb 15th, 2015, 8:53am »
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Dennis:
 
By posting the article, I was in no way implying that I agreed or disagreed with it. I posted it so others might be able to read what is being pushed in the national media about the Raven project.
 
Personally, I do not object to most projects that could have a strong positive economic impact on the community, so long as there are mitigating measures for any downside.
 
I do strongly object to what I call "greenie bed-wetters" who fight tooth and nail, using dubious arguments, against anything that they think (underscore THINK) might (underscore MIGHT) have an impact on one blade of grass.
 
We have an entire generation of young people in our schools today who have few prospects for decent jobs when they graduate. We, as a society, have a duty to help provide meaningful employment for them.  
 
Projects such as Raven, provided there are proper oversight controls, can help provide those jobs.
 
On a personal note, I think it would be a better option to ship the coal from the mine to the loadout by rail instead of truck.
 
Will MacKenzie
Flamborough, ON


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #4 on: Feb 15th, 2015, 9:05am »
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Will - Lodge Members -
 
Indeed! Your writer appreciates your stance you are only the messenger...
 
As an old time truckman myself... Yes, put the loads on seven or eight axle combos. The better choice, and your writer  
with no issues with it? Put it on the rail! Daily train of thirty to thirty five cars. (Watch axle weights, until all certain about  
what on line bridges can take.)
 
In this instance, where there is actually a valid freight move, any line betterments (IMHO) ought to be on owners of the  
line, not the current operating tenant...
 
...........................Vern.....................


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chrisale
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #5 on: Feb 15th, 2015, 11:46pm »
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I spent many many hours and days and months fighting to get the company to even consider the railway.
 
http://www.vifreightbyrail.ca/no-rail-no-coal/petition-response/
 
All that was ever received from them was lip service and while they did consult with ICF/SVI and SVI did put considerable work into some sort of proposal, it was not identified as a "preferred" option to the existing highways in their final application.
 
Further, Dennis can fill all in on the push for a new highway starting closer to the mine and running to Port Alberni.  Paid exclusively by the province.  Though Raven did indicate they'd happily put in a few dollars.  
 
There are many many issues with the mine and the company that will likely keep it from moving forward that are not a part of most of the public debate as of yet.  Step one for them is to create an application that all stakeholders agree is complete and addresses all issues that need to be addressed. (outside the public... so province, municipal, first nation, environment, fisheries, health ministries, etc)
 
There is absolutely no guarantee that they will achieve that bar as they have already failed to clear it on their first try.


« Last Edit: Feb 15th, 2015, 11:48pm by chrisale » Logged

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Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #6 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 12:39am »
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on Feb 15th, 2015, 11:46pm, chrisale wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I spent many many hours and days and months fighting to get the company to even consider the railway.
 
http://www.vifreightbyrail.ca/no-rail-no-coal/petition-response/
Yes you did but some of your review process was suspect (re truck survey) and you did try and fight the good fight. Quote:

 
All that was ever received from them was lip service and while they did consult with ICF/SVI and SVI did put considerable work into some sort of proposal, it was not identified as a "preferred" option to the existing highways in their final application.
Chris et al, have you ever considered that they would have factored in the railroad if it was actually in operation or had real hopes of getting back into operation. I had lunch and drinks with Mr Tapics a couple of times and on querying his reasoning what I found was that the reports were paid for by the page and any information not considered 100% relative would not be included because of the huge costs. The documents was already beyond hundreds of pages when we last talked about the assessment. Quote:

 
Further, Dennis can fill all in on the push for a new highway starting closer to the mine and running to Port Alberni.  Paid exclusively by the province.  Though Raven did indicate they'd happily put in a few dollars.  
Some still labour with the truth about the proposed new highway into Port Alberni. The committee working on development of that road were actually meeting about 11 years ago as an unofficial group working towards a better route. Charlie Haggard and I walked pups and talked about the best places for such a new route. He talked, I listened because I had no local area knowledge back then because I had just moved to Port Alberni. Over the years more and different people got involved in that committee and finally it was wrapped into a portfolio of the PAPA group. Quote:

 
There are many many issues with the mine and the company that will likely keep it from moving forward that are not a part of most of the public debate as of yet.  Step one for them is to create an application that all stakeholders agree is complete and addresses all issues that need to be addressed. (outside the public... so province, municipal, first nation, environment, fisheries, health ministries, etc)
 
There is absolutely no guarantee that they will achieve that bar as they have already failed to clear it on their first try.
The one thing I find strange is the people that John Snyder hauls to the area as expert really have no accredited credentials to bring to the meetings and the expert from Sudbury they dragged up a few years ago had a problems determining the direction "UP"!


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chrisale
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #7 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 1:45am »
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Coalwatch is not part of the working group process right now.  They would only become involved if the application cleared the bar I mentioned before and the application entered into the public review process.

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chrisale
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #8 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 1:56am »
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And my truck survey was better than what they have provided.... Which is nothing as of yet.... Interestingly though, the BC ministry of transportation did basically confirm my findings. Their estimate (2012) is that truck volume of all types is currently around 300/day. Raven would add 40-60/day. An increase of around 20% overall.  My survey came to a maximum of around 30% increase overall.
The increase would be significantly more based on the heaviest/longest axle types.
 
http://www.vifreightbyrail.ca/no-rail-no-coal/highway-4-truck-survey/


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chrisale
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #9 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 8:56am »
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on Feb 16th, 2015, 12:39am, Dennis Dalla-Vicenza wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 Yes you did but some of your review process was suspect (re truck survey) and you did try and fight the good fight

 
Save your flattery for someone who believes it.  You have been fighting for the Horne lake route that would eliminate any chance of increased rail traffic into the Port and viability for the line as a whole since day one.  


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Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #10 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 11:17am »
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This is always down to attack time with you, isn't it?
 
I gave you an offhand compliment which is much better than you sometimes deserve.  
 
I have never been two faced about my support of either the railroad or the highway connector improvement. I was aboard the need for the highway before even Raven new of their proposed project. The advent of the pending Raven deal just made the new highway that much more of an urgent need.  
 
We (highway supporters) also realized that the ICF was in misguided hands and the line to Port was no priority for the railroad.  
 
One thing you should also learn that being you are not some sort of omnipotent being there will be people out there who disagree with your stance so get over yourself.


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chrisale
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #11 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 12:44pm »
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on Feb 16th, 2015, 11:17am, Dennis Dalla-Vicenza wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
I have never been two faced about my support of either the railroad or the highway connector improvement. I was aboard the need for the highway before even Raven knew of their proposed project. The advent of the pending Raven deal just made the new highway that much more of an urgent need.
 
We (highway supporters) also realized that the ICF was in misguided hands and the line to Port was no priority for the railroad.  
 

 
I just want to make it clear to people here what YOUR priorities are for transportation on this Island and always have been.  They most certainly are not putting raven coal on the rails if the coal mine comes to fruition.  And your comments above prove that.
 
Thanks.  


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George_Harris
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #12 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 3:19pm »
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Without a reasonably certain traffic volume, why should the line to the port have any priority for the railroad?
 
The road / railroad do not have to be an "A" or "B" decision.  If the road needs improvement under current traffic conditions, whether the coal moves on road or rail does not would only change the priority status, not the yes/no decision.  
 
Yes, an additional 60 to 80 trucks per day in each direction would increase the road traffic volume, but not significantly.  Capacity of a 2 late road is in the thousands of vehicles per day.
 
Work required on the railroad would be a balancing act in that money spent on the track and structures would have to be justified by increase in capacity and reliability.
 
All these air schemes requiring major outlays of cash on the railroad that cannot be justified by traffic on the railroad are hallucinations, at best.
 
Coal by rail versus coal by rail does deserve a thorough cost-benefit analysis, but without a reasonable certainty that the mine will actually become reality, to do so is a waste of time.
 
Let me say that last again, without certainty that the mine will be built and the coal shipped to the port, to do an analysis on whether the move should be by road or rail is a waste of time.  The only thing needed would be a sort of "back of the napkin" analysis to determine whether the move is practical by any means, with refinement at the early stage only if transportation cost would be a determining factor in feasibility of the scheme.  
 
As to all these "greenies" they are truly living in fantasyland.  They want all the benefits of modern society that necessitate use of resources and their transportation, but without these things, and they also have no consideration of the need to make a living of those who cannot live in their fantasyland.  I have absolutely no sympathy for the small minded selfishness of these dolts.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #13 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 3:28pm »
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All Hands - Lodge Members -
 
Noted it is about sixty (60) Highway Miles, Cumberland - Port Alberni. Rail distance in the old Timetables and Station Lists?
 
Should this be a classic hearing for operating authority, then: It is being said the Rail Line is hardly "...ready, willing, fit, and  
able..." to perform needed services? Why is that?
 
Else, in a Highway discussion, some obvious legitimate comparisons of merits of "A Train" and "B Train" configs. As your writer  
a believer in merits of "Bridge Formula" thinking, it tends to favor the spread out axle spacings on combinations. If y'all want to  
run "B Train" configs. go right ahead...
 
............................Vern.......................


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Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #14 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 5:52pm »
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on Feb 16th, 2015, 12:44pm, chrisale wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
I just want to make it clear to people here what YOUR priorities are for transportation on this Island and always have been.  They most certainly are not putting raven coal on the rails if the coal mine comes to fruition.  And your comments above prove that.
 
Thanks.  

What part of "I'm NOT two faced" did you not understand. The new highway proposal (which you voted to support BTW) is needed for more than the almost toy train scheme to the people of this area not served by the railroad. Being the railroad isn't running that makes it 100% of the people need the new highway and will be better served by it and that extends out to Bamfield to the south and Ucluelet, Salmon Beach, Tofino and numerous other little places that your favorite tax subsidy requirement railroad never did run to.  
 
Most of the papers looking for support (without freight) should all begin, "Once Upon A Time," and I am damn serious about that.


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Olmanhall
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #15 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 9:44pm »
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Ooooo! Someone hit a nerve  

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chrisale
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #16 on: Feb 16th, 2015, 11:41pm »
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on Feb 16th, 2015, 3:19pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Without a reasonably certain traffic volume, why should the line to the port have any priority for the railroad?
 
The road / railroad do not have to be an "A" or "B" decision.  If the road needs improvement under current traffic conditions, whether the coal moves on road or rail does not would only change the priority status, not the yes/no decision.  
 
Yes, an additional 60 to 80 trucks per day in each direction would increase the road traffic volume, but not significantly.  Capacity of a 2 late road is in the thousands of vehicles per day.
 
Work required on the railroad would be a balancing act in that money spent on the track and structures would have to be justified by increase in capacity and reliability.
 
All these air schemes requiring major outlays of cash on the railroad that cannot be justified by traffic on the railroad are hallucinations, at best.
 
Coal by rail versus coal by rail does deserve a thorough cost-benefit analysis, but without a reasonable certainty that the mine will actually become reality, to do so is a waste of time.
 
Let me say that last again, without certainty that the mine will be built and the coal shipped to the port, to do an analysis on whether the move should be by road or rail is a waste of time.  The only thing needed would be a sort of "back of the napkin" analysis to determine whether the move is practical by any means, with refinement at the early stage only if transportation cost would be a determining factor in feasibility of the scheme.  
 
As to all these "greenies" they are truly living in fantasyland.  They want all the benefits of modern society that necessitate use of resources and their transportation, but without these things, and they also have no consideration of the need to make a living of those who cannot live in their fantasyland.  I have absolutely no sympathy for the small minded selfishness of these dolts.

 
It is certainly true that you can't put a ton of resources into the question without confidence about whether the mine will even happen, however the environmental application which basically forms the yae/nay decision in its entirety does require significant study of all transportation routes and alternatives that may be considered for the project whether they are in existence at the time of writing or not.
 
To that end, it will likely be of interest to folks here that port Alberni city council will be having a special meeting with the city's Raven review committee tomorrow.  The Committee is going through the thousands of pages of application and whatnot that Raven has given to the stakeholders to review to ensure everything that needs to be addressed in the City's perspective is identified before it goes to the next stage which is public renew.
 
I unfortunately will not be able to attend the meeting but I've sent in this to ensure it is included as a concern by the committee in its submission back to the CEAA and BCEAO.
 
"As we all know that Raven has shown interest in both the Horne lake and railway alternatives and that both of those alternatives would have significant and unique impacts on the City I believe it is imperative that we ensure those alternatives are fully studied as part of the requirements of their application along with highway 4 impacts and city street impacts."
 
If folks here are interested in the nitty gritty on the city and the coal mine and what the committee has identified as impacts, their report to council is on the city website.
http://www.portalberni.ca/content/meeting-agendas-minutes
 
Oh and by the way, in my short time on city council, we've never had any public consideration of the road or railway or debates or votes to that affect.  I am simply the city rep on the regional transportation committee that was, as Dennis said already, well on its way down the road toward investigating a Horne lake route.


« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2015, 11:14am by chrisale » Logged

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Dennis Dalla-Vicenza

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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #17 on: Feb 17th, 2015, 10:46pm »
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The transportation committee did look at all options and the one option that best served the needs of the extended population of this area was a new shorter road in from 19 to Port.  
 
 


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chrisale
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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #18 on: Feb 18th, 2015, 2:13am »
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on Feb 17th, 2015, 10:46pm, Dennis Dalla-Vicenza wrote:       (Click here for original message)
The transportation committee did look at all options and the one option that best served the needs of the extended population of this area was a new shorter road in from 19 to Port.  
 
 

 
Hmm. Never seen any documents that would support that conclusion especially in recent times with the coalmine involved.  
 
“New definition as “Highway Committee” Do not want to cross over into Island Rail committee” – Page 86 – April 2012
 
 
“SRY pushed back for rail to be the ask of government from the transportation committee and not a highway”Page 33 – July 26
 
http://www.vifreightbyrail.ca/access-to-information-requests/2012atiaport/


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Re: Raven Coal article in National Post
 
« Reply #19 on: Feb 18th, 2015, 9:47am »
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Dennis - chrisale - Lodge Members -
 
So, it has come to this? Bickering over reports and studies, which only beget more reports and studies?
 
Issues here are not that hard: 1) Is the current line of railroad in such condition it is "...ready, willing, fit and able..." to haul the  
possible, anticipated new tonnage? 2) Should the prospective source of tonnage become possible, then Highway option (if need)  
could be done with a fleet of about twenty (20) dedicated units of truck equipment.
 
........................Vern....................


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