Railfan.net Home Railfan Photos ABPR Archives Staff Safari Photos Railfan Links

Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please Sign In or Register. Jan 20th, 2018, 12:33am
Categories •  FastIndex •  LongIndex •  Help •  Search •  Members  •  Sign In •  Register


Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
   Railfan.net Web Forums
   Regional Area Operations
   Vancouver Island
(Moderators: SRY 110, Pyronova, Henry)
   Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2 3  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint
   Author  Topic: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria  (Read 2076 times)
MinionII
Historian
Posts: 541
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
 
« Reply #40 on: Mar 7th, 2015, 12:33am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

I realize that I'm dredging up my own thread from years ago, but now I'm interested in duplicating this bit of track in N scale...
 
I am wondering if over the years anyone has come across any more precise information on the layout of track behind these warehouses, especially that little bit at the south end served via the switchback or crossing.
 
I have the 1960 yard map from CPHA (excerpt posted by ENR3005). The southernmost warehouse with the switchback/crossing spur didn't exist at that time. I'd love to see the same map for say 1970, 1980, 1990, etc. to see how the layout changed over the years.  
 
I know the 1960 map didn't jive with the physical evidence I found several years ago, specifically the northern most switch - the physical evidence shows that switch further south, with the Malkin warehouse served by 2 spurs - one that ran into the building (after running along the back of the safeway warehouse, as shown in the 1960 map), and another running along the back as I illustrated on my map. I messed up the placement of the middle switch, I think the video stills show pretty clearly that it was behind standard furniture.  
 
I believe the 1960 map is accurate other than the placement of the northernmost switch, and of course it does not include the southernmost warehouse which I am most interested in.
 
The screen captures of the video were great, but still not really adequate to nail down how that warehouse was served.
 
The personal recollections are great, but I'm really after additional visual/data record.
 
Much appreciated,
Andrew


Logged
ENR3005
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 775
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
 
« Reply #41 on: Mar 11th, 2015, 11:41pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

In the years since this post, I haven't collected any new photos of that area. I have labeled my whole photo collection down to exact mileposts over the year so I can make quick reference. Hopefully someone else can post some of the visual evidence you see as I would be very interested too.
 
Chris


Logged
MinionII
Historian
Posts: 541
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
  Hereward_to_Devonshire_suspected_truth_sm.jpg - 96947 Bytes
« Reply #42 on: Sep 18th, 2015, 1:55am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Well, I didn't need to dig much to dredge out my thread again...it was on the first page! Activity on the board is definitely in a lull. Hopefully some great news will spark activity once again...hopefully.
 
 
I think I've come to a conclusion on the rough track layout behind these warehouses between Devonshire and Hereward. The switch showing in Goose5's photo (July 1985) in reply #790 in the photos thread is the Malkin Warhouse spur switch, the switch stand would have been on the other side of the track. This switch and spur was removed shortly before the video (1989) as ENR3005 stated in reply #10.
 
The switch stand showing in the image is very likely the switch located on the Standard Furniture spur which allowed access to the building in the background, the southernmost warehouse in the block. This stand can be seen again in ENR3005's reply #11 in this thread. Also, one can see the fresh ties/ballast from complete removal of Malkin's spur switch. It appears the southernmost warehouse was indeed served via a switchback with a very short tail! What a pain that must have been to switch.
 
Goose5's reply #18 in this thread appears to be precisely the case.
 
ENR3005's reply #12 shows the switch behind the Safeway warehouse which ran down the back of the Malkin warehouse, this spur does not appear on the CPR drawing. I now accept the northernmost switch/spur on the CPR drawing, as this served what is shown as a 'plaform' which later turned into the building that stands there today, with 2 loading doors. I thought that the northernmost building was served by the same spur that run along the side of the Malkin warehouse, but there would have to have been a few feet of drop in a very short distance judging by the existing grade and relative heights of the loading doors on the two buildings.
 
It seems CP got lazier with spur removals following the late 80s. The Malkin spur ties were completely removed, and the switch ties were trimmed. Such is not the case for the Standard Furniture spur (and switchback spur), or the spur that ran beside the Malkin building. The ties were left in the ground, and the switch ties are still plainly visible. This leads me to believe the northern most spur was removed prior to the late 80s.
 
ENR3005, do you have any stills from Hugh Fraser's video further north alongside the Malkin warehouse?
 
Torch, in reply #20 you stated the northernmost spur crossed the road to serve another customer. Which road did it cross? Fairview? Or Devonshire?
 
Attached is my 'final' take of how I believe the track was layed out, save for the end point of the northernmost spur.
 
I hope I haven't bored anyone, it only took me 7.5 years to satisfy myself.
 
Thanks,
Andrew
 


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/Vancouver/Hereward_to_Devonshire_suspected_truth_sm.jpg
Click Image to Resize

« Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2015, 1:57am by MinionII » Logged
Goose5
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 1284
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
  0001.jpg - 91557 Bytes
« Reply #43 on: Sep 18th, 2015, 8:21pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Hello Andrew,
 
Subjects like these are never boring as they are about the history of the E&N. Adding to what I mentioned in a previous post I can say with certainty that my time of occasionally walking along this stretch of track in the mid 1980's to early 1990's that the only road crossings were the main track. There may have been a siding that crossed a road earlier than that as Torch had mentioned but I can't recall any evidence of seeing where one was. Therefore I think from memory that your trackplan for the area is dead on. It is interesting to note that on the 1960 plan the southernmost warehouse did not exist and then when it was built the only way to have a siding for rail service was to put in the switchback. I looked through my photos again and I did find 1 more that I had never posted that shows the dayliner partly on the bridge over Hereward Rd. and partly on the southernmost switch that leads to the switchback which is unfortunately completely overgrown. The switch stand is almost exactly even with the end of the switchback spur. The photo was taken on June 16, 1990.
 
Dave
 
1.


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/Vancouver/0001.jpg
Click Image to Resize

« Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2015, 8:25pm by Goose5 » Logged
MinionII
Historian
Posts: 541
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
 
« Reply #44 on: Sep 19th, 2015, 1:15am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Hello Dave, thanks for the confirmation!  
 
Since the CP map is from 1960, and your photo is from 1990, that warehouse only made use of the spur for 30 years max.
 
I was surprised that the Safeway warehouse had 5 car spots. That's a heck of a lot! And then to have the same spur continue into the Malkin warehouse, it must have been a real pain to switch.
 
What was the business that Malkin did? What sort of freight cars were pushed inside the building?
 
I wonder if the spur running down the side of Malkin went in when the Safeway/internal Malkin spur was removed. From the map, the doors on the older portion of the Malkin warehouse would not have been accessible if there were freight cars on the internal track. The 3 doors on the expanded Malkin warehouse were a loooong way apart, I estimated 150ft. Most of the other buildings appear to have doors spaced for 40ft box cars. I plan to go back and take pictures and measurements.
 
Hopefully Chris comes back with additional stills from the Hugh Fraser video.  
 
Andrew


Logged
Goose5
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 1284
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
 
« Reply #45 on: Sep 19th, 2015, 11:11am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Hi Andrew,
 
Malkin was the W.H. Malkin Co., a grocery wholesaler that supplied a lot of independent stores. If I am correct on my history they were bought out in the early 1970's by Kelly Douglas & Co. which later was absorbed into the Weston Food Group of companies, Canada's largest grocery retailer currently run by Galen Weston. On the map, Safeway's warehouse would actually have been Macdonald's Consolidated which was their wholesale division supplying their own stores. I believe they moved out from the Viewfield Rd. warehouse to a larger one in the late 1970's and their space was acquired by Kelly Douglas to expand their warehouse. Therefore the 2 main competing grocery wholesalers in the Victoria area were side by side for a while. They would have received almost exclusively boxcar loads from the major manufacturers (Campbells Soup, Kelloggs, etc.). Refrigerator cars are also a possibility for cold and frozen foods. I would certainly include those on a model for operating interest. Standard Furniture would be only boxcar loads coming in and out. To add interest on a model I would make the northernmost building a manufacturing company of some sort that would receive and ship boxcars but also gondola and flatcar loads as well as the odd tankcar. This results in a wide variety of cars for this area. An interesting operating possibility for a model that may have actually happened on the E&N would be for a major manufacturer to have a carload split between Malkins and Safeway resulting in a switch engine having to come out and respot the car at the other company's loading door to finish emptying it. This area can be nicely modelled on a 9 inch wide shelf as part of a larger layout with only 2 or 3 inches of the backs of each building being modelled and maybe with some selective compression (3 doors instead of 5). A local freight operator would be kept busy for quite a while during an operating session switching this mess. I am going to put this area plan in my notebook of ideas for a multideck HO layout that I am planning.  
 
Dave


« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2015, 11:21am by Goose5 » Logged
hillbank
Historian
Posts: 327
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
 
« Reply #46 on: Sep 21st, 2015, 1:03am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Andrew and Dave.
Thankyou for posting this information and pics...it is not boring at all, it is useful archive material. I find industrial history very interesting even more now with the way things change so fast.  Spent the weekend up Hill 60 and Copper Canyon exploring old rail grades and logging sites and just about every person i ran into had no idea that there were railroads in those areas at one time, and one couple i was talking to were even standing on some old ties!
keep up the good work!


Logged
torch
Historian
Posts: 1166
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
  en_devonshire_xing_800-2.jpg - 110108 Bytes
« Reply #47 on: Sep 23rd, 2015, 11:49pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Hi, Andrew and all. The spur that I had mentioned came down off the end of the last warehouse spur heading west. It was a continuation of the spur. I swiped a photo and I dont remember which one of you took it, sorry, but the one level building on the left with the silver car in the driveway: that was the customer. Track crossed the road there and continued into where the silver car is. I think it was a one boxcar spot. I remember seeing the track and spur intact in the early 80s but i dont recall ever seeing a boxcar parked there.. The freight door IS still visible though and you will see this in google earth.

http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/Vancouver/en_devonshire_xing_800-2.jpg
Click Image to Resize

Logged
MinionII
Historian
Posts: 541
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
  Devonshire_and_Fairview_south_west_corner_looking_south_sm.jpg - 67189 Bytes
« Reply #48 on: Sep 26th, 2015, 12:19am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Hello Torch, thanks for clarifying where that last customer was. Below is a Google image of that building taken from Devonshire looking south. It looks like the spot where the silver car is in your image (cube van in mine) is too short for a boxcar to be spotted, with perhaps 20' of space. There is however an awkwardly placed platform on the south face of the building, with the green door. This looks like a likely spot that the track could have run to. There is also another similar platform a little further to the right...perhaps about the right spacing for 2 40' boxcars to be spotted simultaneously?
 
Still waiting for you Chris.  
 


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/Vancouver/Devonshire_and_Fairview_south_west_corner_looking_south_sm.jpg
Click Image to Resize

Logged
torch
Historian
Posts: 1166
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
 
« Reply #49 on: Sep 26th, 2015, 6:01am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Yes, the green door is what I meant by freight door being visible, not exactly where the vehicle was parked but was just making a general observation. The facade of the building has been altered somewhat since its rail served days but yes,that green door was definitely a rail door.

Logged
MinionII
Historian
Posts: 541
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
 
« Reply #50 on: Sep 26th, 2015, 7:07pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Hello Torch, thanks for clarifying.
 
I do wonder what the frequency of service was to all of these businesses while they were rail served, or how easy/cheap it was for a line side business to ask for a spur to be built.
 
Victoria sure was a tangle of tracks at the peak of railroading in the area.
 
Still waiting on Chris...
 
Anyone know where a copy of Hugh's video can be obtained?
 
Thanks,
Andrew


Logged
vicguy
Historian
Posts: 1038
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
 
« Reply #51 on: Jan 15th, 2016, 10:15pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Sep 26th, 2015, 7:07pm, MinionII wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Anyone know where a copy of Hugh's video can be obtained?

 
Not sure if you've gotten Hugh's video yet, but you can reach him at 250 385-2760. He just released another dvd called E&N Railway Memories, it's like a best of video.


Logged

Chris

click here for E&N and other rail photos

Rail videos here
MinionII
Historian
Posts: 541
Re: Trackage between Hereward and Devonshire - Victoria
  northern_most_spur.png - 28403 Bytes
« Reply #52 on: Jan 9th, 2018, 1:38am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Dredging up my thread again  
 
The answer on the northernmost spur was right under my nose all along.
 
The 1960 Victoria Yard map actually shows the northernmost spur (the one with the switch about mid-way along the back of the Malkin warehouse) continuing past the 'platform' that appears to be at the end of the spur, curving to parallel Devonshire Rd, crossing Fairview Rd, and continuing a short distance further. No Building is shown on the map, and the spur itself if barely legible past the 'platform'. You can make out the word 'spur' at the lower left of the attached image.
 
I had to share this discovery since I've been bothering y'all with this thread for so long.  
 



Image exceeds display size of 900 pixels wide. (28403 bytes, 1183x276 pixels)


Click Here to View Image northern_most_spur.png - 28403 Bytes


Logged
Pages: 1 2 3  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint

« Previous topic | Next topic »