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Rumours & Speculation & Rants
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   Author  Topic: Rumours & Speculation & Rants  (Read 21292 times)
cn2220
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #60 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 10:53pm »
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on Jul 7th, 2005, 7:42pm, Pyronova wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Secondly,  where in PA would these "facilities" go?
 
 

 
I am not arguing with you, If you read my post you will see that I asked the same question.
 
 


« Last Edit: Jul 8th, 2005, 12:12am by cn2220 » Logged

Tyler

Long live the GE`s!!!!
CPRail4744
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Posts: 2383
Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #61 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 11:39pm »
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I can see the smoke rising, thicker than a burning railroad trestle......

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Matt Arnott, Kamloops, B.C.

"I would prefer to see it shipped by train..."
cn2220
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #62 on: Jul 8th, 2005, 12:09am »
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on Jul 7th, 2005, 11:39pm, CPRail4744 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I can see the smoke rising, thicker than a burning railroad trestle......

 
Fire extinquisheron standby   lol


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Tyler

Long live the GE`s!!!!
Aaron Lypkie
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #63 on: Jul 8th, 2005, 2:24am »
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Hmmm , I think we should all go on the Jerry Springer Show.
 
First, it wont be up to us what is shipped on the E&N.
Second, it will be up to the new operator as he or she will have the know how and business sense.
Thirdly, we can argue all we want, but we wont know what is going to happen until a new operator is announced
Four, can we stop questioning each others intelligence, we could all be wrong or all be right.
Six, its going to take many ideas, cooperation between many parties and a lot of hard work to make the E&N successfull.
 
So if it means starting commuter service, bringing back steam trains, being innovative with freight operations or parading naked along the track to bring back confidence in rail travel on the island then so be it.
 
Until then, keep up the entertaining discussion
 
Aaron


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CP8673
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #64 on: Jul 8th, 2005, 10:59am »
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Aaron,
 
well said. Thanx for injecting some sanity back into this thread


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B_Winkler
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #65 on: Jul 8th, 2005, 11:04am »
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on Jul 8th, 2005, 2:24am, Coastrail wrote:       (Click here for original message)
So if it means starting commuter service, bringing back steam trains, being innovative with freight operations or parading naked along the track to bring back confidence in rail travel on the island then so be it.
 

 
I draw the line at the parading naked thing.  I am way too old for that to have any appeal, either for me or anyone else.


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Aaron Lypkie
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #66 on: Jul 9th, 2005, 12:16am »
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Ok, well the parading naked thing was a bit too far.  
 
 
 
But,  I do think that working together on improving the transportation situation on the island will benefit all of us. Not the bickering that seems to consume the politicians and citizens of Vancouver Island. This is especially true in the Victoria area. Lets use this energy at getting things done. This means improving the E&N (commuter rail and freight), improving transit services (all communities), putting in a streetcar and LRT network in Victoria, etc.  
 
Regardless what is said, we have to give the E&N a chance.
 
Aaron


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torch
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #67 on: Jul 9th, 2005, 3:17am »
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my 2 cents worth here is that this hobby of railfanning and rail dreaming  is supposed to be a fun release for most of us.This is where we can escape from our hectic day to day schedule.Lets just cool down. Pyronova sweems more interested in the corporate structure of railroads and seems to be a realist.  Fine.  maybe this board is not for him then. you could always just ignore an antagonist.   cheeerios.

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Pyronova

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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #68 on: Jul 9th, 2005, 4:06am »
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Lets do a change up then......  since I am too serious for the majority here......
 
Can we come up with a rock solid list of shipper/receivers in the following catagories: current and possible (either have chosen truck (alternate methods of shipping) or a shipper/receiver that has suspended operations (spur line intact - building deserted) ) .     I figure with a rock solid list (not a what if the E&N were to extend into Port Hardy for Queen of the North pax traffic list) we could extrapulate possible shipping scenarios as well as some $$ numbers.
 
For instance:  We know Top Shelf exists and is current.   They receive X amount of cars per week at say $500 per car in and $500 per car out.    E&N obviously receives $1000 per car barge to barge.  
 
If we have a full list, and since this is a speculation thread, we could come up with some realistic numbers, to satify everyones theories........
 


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hillbank
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #69 on: Jul 10th, 2005, 1:22am »
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Hey thats a good idea...i will start with one item for the list...lumber shipments  
now this has been talked about before and Rail America was looking into it as well including truck/rail reload...the best location for this would be Wellcox the reasons.
1. there is room for trucks to come and go and store lumber.
2. the switching could be done by the yard crew.
3. Wellcox is not to distant from most of the sawmills on Vancouver Island.
4. to build a reload anywhere else there is the need for land and to purchase it would be expensive plus the problem of NIMBYS.
 As you all know alot of lumber used to be shipped by the E&N off the island HOWEVER  things have changed, the mills that did have direct rail access have either closed or have had the spurs removed...Chemainus sawmill is a possible future customer as some of the spur is still intact and i am not sure on the status of track in Port Alberni however from a business perspective if a railroad was to invest in trying to capture the Island Lumber traffic it would make sense to build a reload facility and service A NUMBER OF CUSTOMERS than build/rebuild a couple of spurs.
 Well thats just my thoughts maybe some of you can add some more to this or come up with some $ figures or if all else fails you can napalm me.
 


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Cody
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #70 on: Jul 10th, 2005, 2:39am »
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From the little I know of the lumber trading market, the majority of lumber sold to the US enters the States via railcar.  I believe that majority of lumber trading happens in Chicago.  If Home Depot buys 2X4s, I believe they bid on them in Chicago, and then they are distributed from there.  As well, a lot of the traffic heading south from B.C. on BNSF is lumber and wood products, as anyone who has witnessed the late day south-bound in Vancouver can attest to.
 
Having said that.   All those 2X4s in Chemainus likely end up on railcars at some point so it might as well be on the Island.   I think it is entirely possible and realistic for that traffic to come back.   The kicker is that the lumber might be going directly to Asia or California on ships.
 
Being a Vancouverite recently transposed to Victoria, I think there is another factor at work here no one has discussed.  Perhaps it is inline with the "Island Mentality" that Pyronova eluded to.   I am always surprised by the networking, secret handshakes, cliques, back-room deals, and old school working relationships that have such great strength on the Island.  My PERSONAL experience on Vancouver Island is that industry here is a little less cut-throat and bottom line driven, and people co-operate and look out for each other a little bit more.  It makes the place a "hard nut to crack", but once you're on the inside people work together a little more.  If the trucking lines were reasonably affordable, and provided good customer service with a personal touch, it might be hard to steal traffic away.  Sort of a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" type mentality.  If a shipper's business was losing money it would be another story. From what I observe business friendships are strong on the Island, and people tend to like to stick with the status quo, so the new rail operator will have to really offer a great deal to break back into the market.   It would be ideal if they could work with, rather than against the truckers.
 
I like the idea of Pyronova's list.  How many carloads of lumber leave the island via truck?   Is it all perhaps leaving via ship?   If it leaves via ships there may be no hope for rail service so I think this distinction is important.
 


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CPRail4744
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #71 on: Jul 10th, 2005, 4:03am »
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Digging deeper a little into the research we have now started, particularily about lumber, how much lumber production is there left on the Island?  Is there a sustainable forest industry still going strongly?  As an interior person,  I probably have a warped sense of how many trees are left, and how much pressure there is from environmental types who want to make the whole island into a national park just for tree huggers .

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Matt Arnott, Kamloops, B.C.

"I would prefer to see it shipped by train..."
CPRail4744
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #72 on: Jul 10th, 2005, 4:04am »
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Digging deeper a little into the research we have now started, particularily about lumber, how much lumber production is there left on the Island?  Is there a sustainable forest industry still going strongly?  As an interior person,  I probably have a warped sense of how many trees are left, and how much pressure there is from environmental types who want to make the whole island into a national park just for tree huggers .

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Matt Arnott, Kamloops, B.C.

"I would prefer to see it shipped by train..."
B_Winkler
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #73 on: Jul 10th, 2005, 6:38am »
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on Jul 10th, 2005, 2:39am, Cody wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Having said that.   All those 2X4s in Chemainus likely end up on railcars at some point so it might as well be on the Island.   I think it is entirely possible and realistic for that traffic to come back.   The kicker is that the lumber might be going directly to Asia or California on ships.
 

 
Most of the mills on the island converted production to Asian sizes.  About this time, surprisingly enough, lumber shipments on the E&N dropped dramatically. Most of the mills that have survived, still produce for the Asian market and are on tidewater.  
 
The forest industry evolved into the interior mills cutting US dimension lumber and the coastal mills cutting for Asia.  That is one of the reasons that you see more lumber trucks on the ferries to the island than you do heading the other way.  
 
Having said that there are still mills producing for the US market but most of them load directly onto ships.  The 'reloads' have evolved into places like the Nanaimo Assembly Wharf where the lumber is sorted and loaded onto ocean going craft.  
 
Chemainus has a number of reman outfits that remanufacture lumber (planers - kiln dryers etc) and I think that this is usually barged from Stuart Channel.  The lumber mostly comes out of the mills in the Nanaimo/Ladysmith area.  This is why you almost always see lumber trucks on the road between Nanaimo and Chemainus.  
 
If a reload was to be successfully established, I think it would have to be in the Chemainus area.  If the Crofton sub was put back in, it may make sense to load railcars at a reload in Chemainus and barge them directly to the US.  I am sure there is someone out there with a better idea of these numbers than me.  


« Last Edit: Jul 10th, 2005, 6:42am by B_Winkler » Logged
boxcar
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #74 on: Jul 10th, 2005, 1:02pm »
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ok seems to me that everyone has a say in  this so here is mine.
In one case i agree with pyronova about not making sense to unload & and reload to a barge, it will still take time to unload in pa then down to naniamo switch to a barge then off load at tilbury etc. Now, here is something to thionk about, the average ship holds how many containers? Transfered to rail makes how many trains, and that takes how many barges to get to the mainland...Honestly i don't see how it'll work, but who knows maybe it will. The other thing is this: next time you're out & about driving, notice how many sea cans are actually on vancouver island to various different receivers, if maybe the ships could unload all the ones for van isle lets say, then continue on it could work, but then again logistically doesn't make sense to make 2 ports of call for one load, does it? or on the flip make the container trains in vancouver or whereever and ship them by rail into victoria nanaimo whatever. This i think would be more viable and logistically makes sense.  No one really looses inn this...why? because, trailers (containers) take the barge to swartz bay or naniamo, railcars also have to take a barge...see still the same income there...you'd have to get a top-lift op. creates a job + plus local trucks to haul the containers, more jobs... that would make more sense in my opinion.


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B_Winkler
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #75 on: Jul 10th, 2005, 4:51pm »
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Good points but I want to point out one thing.  The original suggestion was that the containers going through PA would be those that time of delivery is important.  Being one day closer to the orient AND avoiding the congestion at the Port of Vancouver could mean earlier delivery times for product.  As with anything else, this would be a niche market, certainly not something that would replace Vancouver.  
 


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Pyronova

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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #76 on: Jul 10th, 2005, 5:41pm »
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on Jul 10th, 2005, 4:51pm, B_Winkler wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Good points but I want to point out one thing.  The original suggestion was that the containers going through PA would be those that time of delivery is important.  Being one day closer to the orient AND avoiding the congestion at the Port of Vancouver could mean earlier delivery times for product.  As with anything else, this would be a niche market, certainly not something that would replace Vancouver.  
 

 
Actually, PA is only 8-10 hours closer to the orient.  Any time to be made up would be the waiting time in English Bay or at Point Roberts.   But can a ship unload to rail, run rail, reload to barge and sail to Tilbury or Ballentine in 10 hours?  Probably not. Further to that is the issue of all lower mainland track is at capacity, so when & where can you run your idea of "express" local shipments?
It would be easy as boxcar said to have one ship only for the island....but that boat would have what 25 or 30 ports to p/u from - from Austraila to Russia (south to north) ......     Maybe if Vancouver Island was a seperate colony/country a VI boat could work.
 
If the PA Port idea would have been a viable idea, CPR would have either gone ahead and petitioned gov'ts for partial or whole funding and not leased out the E&N.  CPR always goes the profitable way; it never gives up the gold. Sidebar to this is CPR now has running rights/track agreement with CN from Edmonton to Kamloops, and is petitioning gov't / looking at legal action for the BC Gov't and the Port of Prince Rupert, which CPR has no access to (yet).
 


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Cody
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #77 on: Jul 11th, 2005, 12:28am »
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I plead ignorance.  Is there any industries within ear-shot of the E and N that recieve standard shipping containers (Sea Cans)?   I can only recall seeing standard tractor trailers on the Island in any great number.   My guess is that any products heading to the Island that were containerized at one point have been reloaded into 40 Ft. trailers in Vancouver.   What industries, warehoues, or businesses would recieve containers on the Island?

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hillbank
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #78 on: Jul 11th, 2005, 2:18am »
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Hey gang thanks for the input, i forgot to add that between three to five barge loads a week leave Cowichan Bay with Lumber that is reloaded in New West on BNSF and some frieghters that load at Cow Bay are heading to the Eastern Seaboard...Bob mentions the Crofton sub again and i think Crofton would make a good reload facility if there as it has the same assets as Wellcox.
   Now this container thing is getting to me...there is already a container crane at Duke point with the idea that barge loads of sea cans or ships with part loads can load/unload...so why Port Alberni...some of you have made good points and Pyro and Boxcar have both made good counterpoints so are we missing something? could it be the containers will contain a single product? or would they be going to a single customer? or somekind of hotshot? i have not a clue but when my longshoreman friend gets back from holiday i will ask him what he has heard around the union hall.


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Pyronova

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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #79 on: Jul 11th, 2005, 12:03pm »
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on Jul 11th, 2005, 12:28am, Cody wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I plead ignorance.  Is there any industries within ear-shot of the E and N that recieve standard shipping containers (Sea Cans)?    What industries, warehoues, or businesses would recieve containers on the Island?

 
What if any in the way of "Home Depots" or "Wal-Marts" or any box stores are near the line?  These type of businesses are the ones that have enough sales volume to warrant use of repeated container delivery.  But mind you, usually these stores' inventories is sorted at a central distribution point, then sorted and trucked to each store.  Constant moving inventory.....  Is there a "Wal-Mart" distribution outlet near the line, where they could recieve railed containers?


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