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Rumours & Speculation & Rants
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   Author  Topic: Rumours & Speculation & Rants  (Read 21727 times)
Aaron Lypkie
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #120 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 1:35am »
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Whoops,
My mistake, thankyou for correcting me.
 
 
About Crofton, is it big enough to accomodate container traffic? As someone mentioned before (rumor of course) that Washington Group wanted to ship containers from Port Alberni to Crofton.
Aaron


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Jason King
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #121 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 2:58am »
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Wow, I go away for a day and look what happens to my comment about container traffic.  
 
The idea of interchanging with a line in the US is interesting, and I know that there is a shortage space in the ports to take the containers, though more capacity is in the works.  
 
Yes, I am one of the naysayers on the idea but it's only because no one has been able to convince me of how it would save time going into another port, especially when they'd have to be loaded onto rail barges shortly after leaving Port Alberni.
 
Cheers.
 
J\


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95XXX
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #122 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 11:53am »
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Some large container ships hold 3-4 thousand containers ,ok lets do the math 60 containers out for each train =50 trains at 5 out  of the valley per day =10 days of continuous trains and thats only one way.

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Cody
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #123 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 1:01pm »
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How big will the rail-barge be?   It might break some world records.  

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Pyronova

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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #124 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 1:09pm »
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So far we have all asumed that the idea of containers at Port Alberni would be containers arriving by sea to then be put on rail to be shipped to many different locations.
 
What if?   the container port is to be the reverse?
 
What if?   the containers are to be filled with - paper? lumber? and other Van Isle products destined for China?  
 
What if?  Port Alberni will stockpile 3000 containers of lumber products for a p/u by container ship every six months or so?
 
 


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Jason King
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #125 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 1:56pm »
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on Aug 16th, 2005, 1:09pm, Pyronova wrote:       (Click here for original message)

What if?   the container port is to be the reverse?
What if?   the containers are to be filled with - paper? lumber? and other Van Isle products destined for China?  
What if?  Port Alberni will stockpile 3000 containers of lumber products for a p/u by container ship every six months or so?

 
The underlying problem is still that we're an island. Sure, one could spend millions upgrading the line for the larger trains and building massive rail barges to handle all the extra traffic but would it not be cheaper to simply put that money into expanding a main land based port?
 
As for stockpiling materials for six months before shipping all I can say is that if I were a producer, I'd not want to get paid six months after I've made a product. If I was a purchaser who had pre-paid for something, I'd not want to wait six months for it. Besides, wouldn't any savings not shipping "the long way" via Vancouver be lost in storage charges?
 
Cheers.
 
J\


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Pyronova

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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #126 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 3:38pm »
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on Aug 16th, 2005, 1:56pm, Jason King wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
The underlying problem is still that we're an island. Sure, one could spend millions upgrading the line for the larger trains and building massive rail barges to handle all the extra traffic but would it not be cheaper to simply put that money into expanding a main land based port?
 
As for stockpiling materials for six months before shipping all I can say is that if I were a producer, I'd not want to get paid six months after I've made a product. If I was a purchaser who had pre-paid for something, I'd not want to wait six months for it. Besides, wouldn't any savings not shipping "the long way" via Vancouver be lost in storage charges?
 
Cheers.
 
J\

 
 
I think you have missed my point.
 
Since we have established Port Alberni as a reciever of containers to then ship via rail to the Mainland as basicly unrealistic, and yet a "rumor" of COSCO-CHINA still looking at it as a port....  perhaps our assumption of PA being a reciever is unrealistic and actually COSCO-CHINA is looking for PA to be a shipper.
 
 FACT: More containers are received to North America than are shipped away from North America.  More bulk, raw comodities are shipped to Asia than are recieved to North America.  


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Cody
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #127 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 5:11pm »
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Until such time as a link from something other than a "secret source" is posted on this issue, I will relegate the idea to the "pie in the sky" bin and think about other subjects.   I cannot see how it would make sense to run unit trains of imports, or exports, over a 50 million dollar rail line to Port Alberni.   It just seems too far-fetched.  
 
Maybe Bill Gates plans to run the E and N as his private 1:1 scale layout.  If he relaid the tracks on the old CN lines, he could get some "loop running" going for the delight of the kids.


« Last Edit: Aug 16th, 2005, 5:12pm by Cody » Logged
Jason King
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #128 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 7:18pm »
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on Aug 16th, 2005, 3:38pm, Pyronova wrote:       (Click here for original message)

I think you have missed my point.
 
Since we have established Port Alberni as a reciever of containers to then ship via rail to the Mainland as basicly unrealistic, and yet a "rumor" of COSCO-CHINA still looking at it as a port....  perhaps our assumption of PA being a reciever is unrealistic and actually COSCO-CHINA is looking for PA to be a shipper.
 
 FACT: More containers are received to North America than are shipped away from North America.  More bulk, raw comodities are shipped to Asia than are recieved to North America.  

 
 
So you're saying we transport containers, or raw materials, over to PA from all over and then ship them out from there?
 
J\


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FSD8014
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #129 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 10:07pm »
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 I dont understand why a container port couldnt both ship and recieve containers. Although I dont claim any knowledge of the process, I dont see why the crane/gantry (whatever its called) cant do both. Is there a container facility already at Prince Rupert?

« Last Edit: Aug 16th, 2005, 10:09pm by FSD8014 » Logged
Jason King
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #130 on: Aug 16th, 2005, 11:03pm »
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on Aug 16th, 2005, 10:07pm, FSD8014 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
 I dont understand why a container port couldnt both ship and recieve containers. Although I dont claim any knowledge of the process, I dont see why the crane/gantry (whatever its called) cant do both. Is there a container facility already at Prince Rupert?

 
Yes, a port can load and unload containers. There is a port in Prince Rupert that I believe is being upgraded.
 
Again, my main issue with the concept of containers in and out of PA is the capacity of the rail link to the mainland. If there were a bridge or a tunnel then yeah, it makes some sense but otherwise, I just don't see it.  
 
J\


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FSD8014
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #131 on: Aug 17th, 2005, 3:00am »
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 I would agree with you Jason, except that Washington group owns Victoria and Vancouver shipyards; and could build big rail barges faster than a container port could be built in PA. It might take 6 or 8 (maybe 10) years to build a working container facility. Who knows how long it might take to virtually recreate the E&N. They have the money, they are partnered with BNSF- who are partnered with China Shipping. For me, some of the pieces fit, yet something doesnt feel right about it. Maybe the time factor. Maybe the isolationism that has hamstrung the current E&N. Maybe I just cant see the E&N as a unit of international trade. I dunno....

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Cody
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
  april_crane.jpg - 38786 Bytes
« Reply #132 on: Aug 17th, 2005, 4:08am »
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I have been directly involved with the expansion of Fraser Surrey Docks, Deltaport, P & O Ports Vancouver, and the proposed Prince Rupert Facility.   I have seen the facilities as they appear in the design phase, on the drawing board, in operation, and during upgrades. A container port can be constructed from breaking ground to full operation in under two years, after a design phase of less than one year, not including environmental and municipal assesments and approvals.   The gantry cranes are brought from Korea pre-assembled and ready-to-run.  They are just plugged in with giant 15 kilovolt extension cords   The port itself consists of nothing more than a well-organized, perfectly level, parking lot.   The only physical structures that need to be built are the dock-face, an Electrical Substation, Forklift repair facility, staff office and shop, and possible electrical hook-ups for storage of refer containers.  All of these structures are basically pre-designed to standard models.  The rest is just paving and possible track-work if rail is used.
 
The major container ports exist in the location they do for only one reason.  Level real-estate, and lots of it.   Deltaport was constucted on a back-filled tidal flat.  Fraser surrey docks was built on a reclaimed tidal marsh.   P and O ports was built on the ancient burrard salt marshes that were reclaimed as Vancouver was first built.   The Coal facility and proposed container facility at Prince Rupert are located on Ridley Island which was a swamp at the mouth of the Skeena River that provided enough level ground to build the pulp mill (Skeena Cellulose) and Ridley Island terminals.   Anyone flying in to Prince Rupert, or Vancouver for that matter, can clearly see why these facilies are placed where they are.
 
My question:
 
Is there room for such a facility in Port Alberni?  These facilities require huge amount of pavement to move, sort, store, load/unload to rail, load to truck, and set out for customs, these containers.   With the existing lay of the land, in the existing townsite, I would say that the only way to put a modern container facility in PA would be to tip the mill down, or fill in the bay.   Maybe I'm wrong.   Where would this port go?   The dockface at the lumber mill at the end of the tracks is not large enough, from what I've seen of it, to compare to the other facilities being contructed.   Maybe the proposal is for a mini-container port with limited facilities.
 
 
The photo is of new container crane being unloaded at Fraser Surrey Docks in April of this year.   The rust coloured steel tubing are stiffeners for transport (packing foam if you will) that are cut away before the crane is put in service.   The crane was rolled right off the ship onto it's rails at the correct tide level.


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/Vancouver/april_crane.jpg
Click Image to Resize

« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2005, 4:11am by Cody » Logged
ENR
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #133 on: Aug 17th, 2005, 4:17am »
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Maybe we are all thinking too big.  The ENR has been viable in the past, so maybe SRY sees potential here.  They've done some buisness with Norske, they own shipyards, and there are other customers on the line(albeit a few).   A major container port seems a bit far fetched.
 
If SRY does indeed have interest in it, perhaps it is just their intention to operate it as it is, if the mills cooperate(PA and Crofton), and superior propane in Victoria starts shipping again.  With CP out of the picture it may be possible.
 
As far as containers go, why is everything shipped on BC Ferries by truck?  If a product comes from out east by train, to Vancouver, why would it not continue its journey by train to the island?  With gas prices and ferry costs so high it might be vialble.  
 
 


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FSD8014
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #134 on: Aug 17th, 2005, 10:59am »
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 Cody wrote: "Maybe the proposal is for a mini-container port with limited facilities" This makes sense at all levels. There isnt enough space for a huge facility in PA, coupled with logistics like rail/barge movement to get to real markets. Lets face it-if something huge were going to happen on this rock the media would pick it up. We're all about mediocrity here. I still cant see a big investment in the E&N without some kind of payoff, no matter who takes it up.

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Cody
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #135 on: Aug 17th, 2005, 8:01pm »
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B.C. Government proposed contruction project database:
 
http://www.gov.bc.ca/ecdev/down/mpi.pdf
 
Go to page 6 for proposed gravel pit info in Port Alberni.   No other projects are listed.


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Cody
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #136 on: Aug 17th, 2005, 8:03pm »
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http://www.eagleaggregates.ca/
 
looks like they will ship via ship/barge


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RDC1_9050
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
  Vancouver/EN_RAIL-LINK_Roster_001.bmp (Note: Can't Find Attachment!)
« Reply #137 on: Aug 18th, 2005, 12:30am »
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What I’m hearing that Washington Rail Group is buying five ex-CN GMD-1BRs
(Rebuild from GMD-1s with B-B trucks) or GMD-1Rs (Rebuild from GMD-1s with
A1A-A1A trucks) for service in BC. They are rumored to be interested purchasing or
leasing a number of GP38-2s. I feel that SRY is doing quite well with units they have, (In
fact three of their SD38-2s are on lease to a railway in Alberta.) so where could these
“new” locomotives be heading for.  
 
Here is a picture on what could happen to these units, if all goes to plan.
 
Say hello to E&N RAIL-LINK and the rebirth of Vancouver Island’s rail transpiration
system.
 
All the original drawings are from The Railroad Paint Shop web-site. They are in
Washington Rail Group Blue and Black with classic E&N Railway logo (Replacing the
big W.) as a nod to the lines history.


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FSD8014
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #138 on: Aug 18th, 2005, 10:32am »
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 I believe there are 5 ex-CN GMD1m's sitting for sale at North Bay, Ontario. Taylor Group has been storing them in the Ontario Northland yard. One is 1170, the last unit used by CN on its Vancouver Island operations. Many of the GMD1's have gone to Cuba recently and it would be nice to keep some in the west here; especially in service on the E&N. The E&N division (CRHS) has been trying to buy the 1170 for some time. http://www.geocities.com/t_welsford/  Tyler, I hope you dont mind my including that link.

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FSD8014
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Re: Rumours & Speculation
 
« Reply #139 on: Sep 3rd, 2005, 1:02am »
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 The GMD1 rumour may be true. A report on the Yahoo E&N group would indicate that Washington Group has purchased 5 in Ontario and are sending them to be serviced at Southern Rail of BC (SRY) shops. CN 1170 might be coming home.

« Last Edit: Sep 3rd, 2005, 1:04am by FSD8014 » Logged
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