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"BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
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   Author  Topic: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers  (Read 615 times)
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3437
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)
 
« Reply #20 on: Apr 4th, 2013, 8:12am »
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Inlet-Longport - All -
 
Trailers? It just became worse, as the bad decision of 1920 bore its fruit. The concept had not been trial tested. Result: There were  
practically no good applications for the dead Cars. (Sparrows Point? Why? They would slow down the line, while tearing apart the  
Powered Cars! Trailers would have been superb in slowing Routes #7 and #8, too!)
 
BTW. In another fine example, see the CSL (Chicago) notes. Here, we see CSL was effectively burning up motor cars, as part of  
sessions in dragging trailers! And, this in a City about as flat as a pool table!
 
..........................Vern............................


« Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2013, 8:33am by HwyHaulier » Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3437
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)
 
« Reply #21 on: Apr 4th, 2013, 11:37am »
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"285" - All -  
 
Yours, CGO M.U. Cars: So that? "...Stupid is as stupid does...", all over again?
 
There were so very, very few "markets" - and then on very specific "lanes" - it begs the question, therefore? Why spend any time with  
Trailer, Artic, and M.U. Car discussions? Save some obvious examples at CVE, DET, CGO, there was no point to it? (BOS long an  
oddity. TOR was a "jobs program" since 1921, more than anything else.)
 
I cannot make the combinations work, on any garden variety "Income/ Expense" bean counting. Anyone else who cares to try it?  
Kindly join in this discussion! Maybe a kindly CPA?
 
.............................Vern..................................
 


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SIRT MOTORMAN 285
Former Member
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)
 
« Reply #22 on: Apr 4th, 2013, 6:03pm »
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Scroll down page for photos of TTC's last trailer train charter (1954)......
 
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4602.shtml


« Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2013, 11:17pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3437
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)
 
« Reply #23 on: Apr 5th, 2013, 7:48am »
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on Apr 4th, 2013, 6:03pm, SIRT MOTORMAN 285 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Scroll down page for photos of TTC's last trailer train charter (1954)......
 
http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4602.shtml

 
"285" - All -  
 
Perhaps, from an engineering standpoint, TTC had it right? Else, difficult to explain how Power Car + Trailer lasted into 1954?  
An implied consideration here? The TTC Peter Witt Cars of sufficiently strong design, so they didn't burn up the electricals  
and fail in service account dragging trailers?
 
It did not impact the Income/ Expense considerations much? A Trailer demanded a Conductor. The combinations costly in  
"off peak" hours. So, it was endless switching in/ switching out of Trailer equipment.
 
In the entire history of it, might we guess Trailers and Articulateds always a bit of a side show? Center Entrance Cars, too,  
were obsolete even before they were built, in near any example. The industry trends post WWI came around to incentives  
to run one man Cars...
 
.........................Vern..................


« Last Edit: Apr 5th, 2013, 7:52am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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SIRT MOTORMAN 285
Former Member
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)
 
« Reply #24 on: Apr 5th, 2013, 11:06am »
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All:
 
Excellent page (w/rare photos) of a monstrous, three-section articulated from Detroit (with a crew of four this was HARDLY an economical vehicle to operate!)
 
Shades of BMT's famed "Triplex" unit, certainly!
 
This fearsome "one-car train" (notoriously underpowered, BTW) remained in service through WW2, and was not scrapped until 1947.......
 
http://www.detroittransithistory.info/DSR/ArticStreetcar.html


« Last Edit: Apr 5th, 2013, 11:08am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3437
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)
 
« Reply #25 on: Apr 5th, 2013, 11:22am »
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"285" - All  -  
 
In the longer perspective? All this kind of rolling stock but a tiny subset of equipment, and limited to a very short list of operators. For fact,  
it had nothing to do with an "average" fleet...
 
Somewhat surprising DETROIT ran some "gutless wonders". They had no clue how to do it right, either?
 
Else, in your reliance on Rowsome. His copy is not divinely inspired. He wrote from a "pro street car" view, and barely touched on daily  
Income/ Expense issues.
 
BTW. Perhaps the sole instances of where "M. U. Street Cars" ever worked well in: UR&E/ BTCo on "Beth Steel" (Sparrows Point) Line,  
and, PRT/ PTCo on equipment which ran Phila. - Chester... Shaker Heights (OH) an amusing distraction?
 
.........................Vern......................


« Last Edit: Apr 5th, 2013, 11:24am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3437
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)
 
« Reply #26 on: Apr 5th, 2013, 4:36pm »
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"285" - All -
 
Not to fret over SHRT, Little Grasshopper! It a classic of mis-applied equipment, and "...doing the best we can..." with operations realities...
 
No way to run a High Speed Trolley? (See Draft of My Text, "Unified Theory Of Everything Transport" <G>) It has been in my Sermons!
 
..........................Vern..............................


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Walt_C
Historian
Posts: 2934
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)
 
« Reply #27 on: Apr 5th, 2013, 4:45pm »
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The most extensive city MU operation in Philly was the Hog Island Line ( Route 45)  which served the Hog Island Shipyards during WWI. That operation ran three and four car trains of the 4000 series MU "Hog Island Cars" during WWI. Train operation didn't last very long after the end of the war, and the line itself was gone by the 1920's. The cars lasted somewhat longer, though most had their MU equipment removed and the cars wound up in dead storeage by the 1930's Three of them were purchased by the suburban Red Arrow Lines during WWII but most of the others were scrapped before 1950. The Chester operation Vern Mentioned,  ran in the same general area as the Hog Island Line, and rarely, if ever used MU operation. Known as the Chester Short Line, or Route 37, it was forceably cut back from Chester to Lester in 1946 ( because of a fire which destroyed the Crum Creek Bridge at Lester following a collision between a trolley and a truck) and single ended 8,000 series cars were substituted  on the shortened Route 37 for the double ended 5200 series cars which had run to Chester, until the route was bustituted in 1956.

« Last Edit: Apr 5th, 2013, 4:57pm by Walt_C » Logged

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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3437
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
 
« Reply #28 on: Apr 6th, 2013, 8:16am »
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Walt C - All -  
 
Many Thanks for clarification of precisely where and when of the routings serving Hog Island, and the line to/ from Chester.
 
In my recollections, decades ago rides on B & O. Stretches of track, not too distant from the Railroad, where riders could  
see the Cars (at the time, usually PCC units) in service, to and from Lester.
 
......................Vern.....................
 


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Inlet-Longport
Railfan
Posts: 116
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
 
« Reply #29 on: Apr 6th, 2013, 9:04am »
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The center entrance cars on the Red Arrow Lines were 1926 Brill products built for the Philadelphia & Westchester Traction Co., the predecessor of Red Arrow Lines.  The center entrance cars survived the 1949 arrival of a group of streamlined cars from St. Louis Car Co.  It was the old Jewett cars which took the hit that year.
 
The center entrance cars stayed on the property, I am told, because they were useful in operating through snow drifts.  Their wheels were higher and the cars  were much heavier than the rest of RAL's rolling stock.  They were used in school trippers because of their ability to hand large crowds.  There were many schools along the RAL car lines.  Monsignor Bonner High School in Drexel Hill comes to mind.
 
They were the darlings of railfans and served on many fan trips from the Fifties through to the cars' final removal from the property.   I rode on several of these fan trips.  I recall the cars as being rather slow accelerating.  
 
Fortunately for us, many of them survived and went on to be preserved in museums.  Seashore has car 62, a nicely restored one which I believe was given to the museum by the Taylor family shortly before they sold RAL to SEPTA.
 
Car 76 operates in Scranton over the right of way of the old Laurel Line interurban.  
 
Car 66 operates at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum.  The museum also has car 73 which is currently stored inoperable.
 
Rockhill Trolley Museum has car 61 which is presently stored inoperable.  Much work is needed to get it back in service


« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2013, 9:42am by Inlet-Longport » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3437
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
 
« Reply #30 on: Apr 6th, 2013, 10:27am »
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Inlet-Longport - All -  
 
The Red Arrow Center Door types. Yes, I was on at least one (if not more) charters operated with the Cars. The memories, however,  
must date to no later than sometime up into 1961. Whatever became of them past the date? Don't know it, the Cars simply dropped  
off my screen, and I was in Buffalo by then, anyway...
 
Seemed it widely known by the company men that the cars, as they had fairly heavy weights, were quite demanding for the power to  
move them! And, yes, they were comparatively slow "off the mark" and attaining speed. (Much of the older fleet at PTCo, too, were  
noted in sluggish performance. On arrive of the NCL folks, they must have marveled at the huge assortment of obsolete equipment,  
rail and bus which part of the Assets! Nothin' orders for 1,000 GMC TDH-51xx types couldn't fix!)
 
.....................Vern..................


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typesix
TRAINing
Posts: 8
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
 
« Reply #31 on: Apr 7th, 2013, 1:03am »
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on Apr 6th, 2013, 10:19am, MOTORMAN 285 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Ex-"RED ARROW" center-entrance #62, restored to her original livery (now at SEASHORE).
 
A handsome restoration of a rare vehicle......

 
A very nice car to ride and operate.


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Walt_C
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Posts: 2934
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
 
« Reply #32 on: Apr 8th, 2013, 3:13pm »
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Just a couple of more thoughts on the Philly operation at the risk of getting a little O.T:    Vern- If you, or someone was looking at PCC Cars  near Lester, that would have been after 1956 and on Route 36, probably near its 1950's & 60's terminus at 94th & Eastwick. ( there was actually no street known as 94th, but that was the designation on the destination sign). Route 36 replaced the bustituted Route 37 in the subway, on Island Road, and in Eastwick when the 37 was converted, restored to Chester, and the bus Route was diverted into South Philly. This coincided with the opening of the siubway/surface tunnel extension to 40th and Woodland Ave. At the same time, PCC cars replaced the 8,000 series Peter Witt conventional cars on all of the remaining Philly Streetcar Routes.
   
    Before the advent of the Hog Island Line, Route 36 operated over Elmwood Ave ( was all surface with a Front & Market Eastern Terminus), and Route 37 shared Woodland Ave east of Island Ave with Routes 11 & 12 out of Darby. When the Hog Island Line began operation with its heavy MU trains ( running from the Hog Island ship yards to the 40th & Market 'El Station) Route 37 was moved from Woodland Ave to Elmwood Ave between Island Road and 49th Street) with the 36. After the war and the rapid decline of Route 45. The 37 was returned to Woodland Ave. where it remained until it was bustituted in 1956. The 5200 series cars which served the line in its Chester Short Line Days were double ended, but not MU. Route 12 was bustituted at the same time as the 37 and its western terminus shortened to 50th &Woodland ( at the Woodland Depot).
 
  --- With the exception of the 1941 Brilliners and the 1932 Brill Lightweight Cars, All of Red Arrow's interurban cars were MU. Most of the Center Door Cars were retired and scrapped after the 1954 bustitution of the long West Chester Line, but several of them did last into the SEPTA ( post 1970) era as their ground clearance and weight made them excellent at being the first cars run after major snow storms. The draw back, of course, was that they were two man cars, and with their rattan seats, not as comfortable as  the Red Arrow's other rail equipment. I don't think that any remain on SEPTA property now , but, as has been mentioned, several have been preserved in museums. The only preserved Hog Island Car, which had been preserved as Red Arrow No 26, was destroyed ( burned) by vandals a few years ago.


« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2013, 3:50pm by Walt_C » Logged

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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3437
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
 
« Reply #33 on: Apr 8th, 2013, 3:51pm »
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Walt C -
 
Thanks! So, I guess my spotting remarks are tied to when B & O ended its services between WAS/BAL and PHL. Old memories can get vague, of course,  
whatever I saw out the train windows. So, I'm not entirely sure...
 
.........................Vern.....................


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Walt_C
Historian
Posts: 2934
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
 
« Reply #34 on: Apr 8th, 2013, 10:48pm »
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on Apr 8th, 2013, 3:51pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Walt C -
 
Thanks! So, I guess my spotting remarks are tied to when B & O ended its services between WAS/BAL and PHL. Old memories can get vague, of course,  
whatever I saw out the train windows. So, I'm not entirely sure...
 
.........................Vern.....................

 
  Vern: As I recall, B&O service through Philly to NY ended circa 1958. If that is true then you could still have been looking at Route 36 PCC cars, as the mass bustitution of Philly streetcar routes by NCL which resulted in the scrapping of the pre-PCC conventional streetcar fleet ( 8,000 series single ended Peter Witt Cars and the 5200 series double enders) resulting in Philly becoming an all PCC city with respect to its remaining streetcar fleet occurred in 1956 along with the route substitution mentioned above.  
    So there was about a one and one half to two year period when you could have seen PCC cars from a B&O passenger train at the location you described.


« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2013, 10:49pm by Walt_C » Logged

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HwyHaulier
Historian
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Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
 
« Reply #35 on: Apr 9th, 2013, 7:59am »
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Walt C - All -  
 
The Wayback Machine? Recall the Carson Show of years back? A regular schtick where McMahon would ask: "How old are you?"
 
In your comments, "...I am so old that..." I rode several fan trips (charters) on the finally out of service 5200 and 8000 types! One of the trips  
about the concerns of end of Market Street routings, with conversion of Route #17. All the now largely long gone "regulars" attended...
 
Another trip, certainly the 8000 types, which originated in South Philly on a New Year's Day morn. There was much nearby activity of groups  
which to appear in the Annual Mummer's Parade!
 
.........................Vern.......................


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Walt_C
Historian
Posts: 2934
Re: "BOSTON'S BEHEMOTHS" (Center-Entrance cars)/MU's/Trailers
 
« Reply #36 on: Apr 9th, 2013, 12:51pm »
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on Apr 9th, 2013, 7:59am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Walt C - All -  
 
The Wayback Machine? Recall the Carson Show of years back? A regular schtick where McMahon would ask: "How old are you?"
 
In your comments, "...I am so old that..." I rode several fan trips (charters) on the finally out of service 5200 and 8000 types! One of the trips  
about the concerns of end of Market Street routings, with conversion of Route #17. All the now largely long gone "regulars" attended...
 
Another trip, certainly the 8000 types, which originated in South Philly on a New Year's Day morn. There was much nearby activity of groups  
which to appear in the Annual Mummer's Parade!
 
.........................Vern.......................

 
 Vern: The last two streetcar lines operating on Market Street, Routes 17 & 32 were gone, as streetcars, by 1956. Route 17 was bustituted and still runs, as a bus, on Market and Route 32 was simply abandoned. There are two of the 8,000 series cars still existing, No. 8534, which until a few years ago remained on SEPTA property and was used for fan trip/ charters, is now at the Electric City Museum in Scranton and #8042 which was at Electric City but is now at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum. Electric City also has doulble ended car No 5205. I remember, as a child, riding both the 8000 and 5200 series cars in actual revenue service.


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