Railfan.net Home Railfan Photos ABPR Archives Staff Safari Photos Railfan Links

Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please Sign In or Register. Mar 30th, 2017, 6:44pm
Categories •  FastIndex •  LongIndex •  Help •  Search •  Members  •  Sign In •  Register


LVT 1000's on P&W?
   Railfan.net Web Forums
   Transit and Commuter
   Traction
(Moderators: , NS3360)
   LVT 1000's on P&W?
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint
   Author  Topic: LVT 1000's on P&W?  (Read 560 times)
GP72ACe

View Profile  

Posts: 849
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #20 on: Aug 10th, 2007, 4:08pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Same here.  It's a wonder that it's not happening right now what with all the concerns regarding oil and retail motor fuel prices…

Logged
O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #21 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 11:32pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify   Remove

  It is interesting to think about what MIGHT have been had, somehow, the old LVT Liberty Bell Route had survived through the present, albiet with new equipment and infrastructure, similiar to SEPTA's Route No. 100, the former P&W line to Norristown. With fuel prices always rising higher, and traffic becoming more and more gridlocked, I would think that the LVT of 2007 might just be playing an important role in area transportation, especially if through service to 69th St. were operated. Certainly, an active electric high-speed rail line could do a lot more good than a walking trail. And....just imagine if a a couple of the old 1000-series were still on the property, lovingly restored, and used on fan trips.....  John

Logged
Walt_C
Historian
Posts: 2934
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #22 on: Aug 31st, 2007, 9:03pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Aug 29th, 2007, 11:32pm, O. WINSTON LINK esq. wrote:       (Click here for original message)
  It is interesting to think about what MIGHT have been had, somehow, the old LVT Liberty Bell Route had survived through the present, albiet with new equipment and infrastructure, similiar to SEPTA's Route No. 100, the former P&W line to Norristown. With fuel prices always rising higher, and traffic becoming more and more gridlocked, I would think that the LVT of 2007 might just be playing an important role in area transportation, especially if through service to 69th St. were operated. Certainly, an active electric high-speed rail line could do a lot more good than a walking trail. And....just imagine if a a couple of the old 1000-series were still on the property, lovingly restored, and used on fan trips.....  John

 
 That's an interesting scenario-- it would have been interesting to see how the Norristown town fathers would have viewed the continued existence of the bridge over Main Street that was demolished when the LVT quit. There would also have been the problem of 1960's era competition from the Northeast Extension of the Penna. Turnpike. And it would have taken a major upgrading of the line north of Norristown to put it in the same condition as the P&W. Still---- a 2007 version of the Liberty Bell Route would be interesting.


Logged

Please move to the rear and speed your ride-Regards, Walt
O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #23 on: Aug 31st, 2007, 9:23pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify   Remove

 Hi, Walt: Good to see you back!  Yes, I agree....it would be quite interesting to see the LVT alive and well in 2007......even if operated SEPTA or some other modern agency. As LVT cars could really speed along on the private ROW sections, I can easily visualize modern high-speed cars (perhaps similiar to the SEPTA cars that are used on the former P&W out of 69th St.) running along the former LVT Liberty Bell Route. What new extensions might have been built? What would service patterns be like? Surely, there are many, many questions to be posed......and I'm sure the "answers" would be just as fascinating!  John

Logged
Walt_C
Historian
Posts: 2934
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #24 on: Sep 1st, 2007, 7:34pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

The present N-5 cars which operate on the former P&W are not nearly as fast as the Bullet Cars ( or the 1000's). What would really have been interesting would have been if the entire LVT had survived, including the run up to the Delaware Water Gap. It would be interesting to speculate what kind of a resort the Water Gap would have become if it had remained possible to travel from Phila to the Gap on traction cars.

Logged

Please move to the rear and speed your ride-Regards, Walt
O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #25 on: Sep 1st, 2007, 11:43pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify   Remove

  Hi, Walt: Now THAT really makes for some interesting speculation!! Imagine if the LVT was still alive and well, and running all the way to the Water Gap......connecting with passenger trains to Hoboken via the former DL&W/E-L route!! At the time that the LVT folded early in the 50s, the interurbans.....and their city cousins (the streetcars), were deemed to be old-fashioned and outmoded. No one ever stopped to consider that when the LVT utilized private ROW, that its cars could zip along at high speeds, WITHOUT becoming entangled in traffic, as would a bus. The beginning of the end for LVT passenger services really started in 1949, when through service to 69th St. was eliminated, forcing passengers to transfer to the P&W at 69th St. I truly believe that the LVT still had a great deal of untapped potential in it.....that is.....had it survived.   John

« Last Edit: Sep 1st, 2007, 11:43pm by JOHN_LUTHER_JONES » Logged
Walt_C
Historian
Posts: 2934
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #26 on: Sep 2nd, 2007, 1:09am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

In the post-war world of the 1950's, America had resumed its love affair with the private automobile, and most forms of public fixed route transportation were in trouble. This is also the period in which the pressure to place big city transit systems under government operation was beginning, though most "conversions" did not occur until the 1960's. For the Liberty Bell Route to have survived, it probably would have been necessary to find some way to get the cars off of the streets, at least in Norristown. The most obvious method, aside from the abandonment which actually occurred, would have been a subway under the Schuylkill from Bridgeport all the way through Norristown ( which became the transfer point when through LVT service to 69th street was abandoned in 1949). Very expensive and, during construction, very disruptive. Given how quickly the bridge over Main Street was demolished  once LVT quit, in restrospect,  I'm a bit surprised that the P&W's elevated structure over Swede Street and its 2nd story terminal at Swede and Main lasted as long as they did.

« Last Edit: Sep 2nd, 2007, 1:11am by Walt_C » Logged

Please move to the rear and speed your ride-Regards, Walt
O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #27 on: Sep 2nd, 2007, 9:44am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify   Remove

   Hi, Walt: Excellent comments and observations. Yes, it's pretty obvious that, IF the LVT were around today, it would, most likely be operated by a modern agency (perhaps a branch of SEPTA). The former P&W line to Norristown obviously survived (at least in part) because it had NO street running whatsoever, unlike the LVT, which utilized a good deal of street running. You are right; if the LVT had survived and a subway of sorts had been built, that not only would have expensive, but also, very labor-intensive and disruptive. It would seem that, way back in 1951, that the LVT had quite a few cards stacked against it.   John

Logged
nyshortline
TRAINing
View Profile  

Posts: 13
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #28 on: Sep 18th, 2011, 12:48pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

In response to one of the earliest posts as to why the P&W didn't purchase the 1000-series cars to replace the Straffords, I believe the main reason was because they were single-ended and lacked couplers for MU operation.  In order for them to work on the P&W they would have had to been arranged as married pairs so they could have only been used during rush hours, and to install couplers they would have to had their front ends strengthened and modified which would have drastically altered their appearance.  Besides the 1000's were built to be compatible with street running AND high-speed PRW running.  Also the Straffords were only some 2-3 tons heavier than the Bullets.  And during the 1960's the P&W was close to getting a 65' version of the Budd Silverliner which would have replaced both the Bullets and the Straffords.  There has been some speculation that the bodies of what would have been those cars turned out to be the narrow-gauge RDC's that were built for Brazil, which had Silverliner-type bodies.  But since the acquisition of the P&W and the rest of Red Arrow by SEPTA was imminent, the order was cancelled.

« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2011, 10:05pm by nyshortline » Logged
Walt_C
Historian
Posts: 2934
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #29 on: Sep 19th, 2011, 3:56pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

The main reason why the P&W didn't purchase the LVT 1000's WAS the single ended configuration of those cars, but an equally important factor was the fact that by 1951 those cars were simply worn out. They had been run constantly during WWII, with little maintenance, and on the last day of service only five were operational, and two broke down that day. The Strafford cars, though slightly older, in 1951, were in much better shape than the former "Red Devils", as is evidenced by the fact that they served for more than 20 years after the demise of the LVT and the 1000's.

« Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2011, 3:57pm by Walt_C » Logged

Please move to the rear and speed your ride-Regards, Walt
Pages: 1 2  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint

« Previous topic | Next topic »