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LVT 1000's on P&W?
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   Author  Topic: LVT 1000's on P&W?  (Read 559 times)
O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« on: Jun 14th, 2007, 10:15pm »
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    After the LVT abandoned all Liberty Bell service between Norristown and Allentown in the early 50s, all but one of the handsome 1000-series cars (No. 1030) ended up as scrap. I've often wondered why the P&W didn't buy all (or at least some) of the 1000's, for replacements of the older Strafford cars. As the 1000's had been extensively rebuilt before entering LVT service, the cars (it would seem to me) still had a number of good service years left in them. In my mind, I can see the LVT cars going into service on the P&W, replacing the older Straffords, which could then be used as rush-hour trippers or spares. Of course, I know a problem could arise with the ex-LVT cars bieng single-ended; that would require a loop and/or wye being built at the end of the line to facilitate turning. What are your thoughts? I look forward to reading your replies.   John

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Walt_C
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #1 on: Jun 14th, 2007, 10:41pm »
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By the time LVT rather abruptly abandoned the Liberty Bell Route in 1951, the 1000's were worn out. They had run constantly during WWII, and probably didn't receive the maintenance which would have kept them running, or in better running condition, in the post war era. On the last day of service, only five of the cars were in running condition, and two broke down that day. P&W did aquire some of the motors and third rail components as spare parts for the Bullet cars, but by 1951, the former Red Devils had been used up.
       Even if the cars had been in better condition, use on the P&W would have been problematic, especially once the bridge over Main Street in Norristown, and the incline ( decline) to and from street level at that location were removed, because the 1000's were single ended cars. Between 1949 and 1951, when LVT terminated the Liberty Bell Route at Norristown,  the method for turning the cars was unique. Southbound cars arriving from Allentown would discharge passengers at the second story P&W terminal at Swede and Main Sts., then back down the incline and through the streets several blocks to LVT's Markley Street freight yard where they were Wyed, and run, still backwards, back through the streets, and up the incline to the station where they entrained northbound passengers ( that is why the single ended cars had front end trolley poles).  They would now be facing north so that they could make the northbound trip to Allentown. Needless to say, once the bridge and incline at Norristown were demolished, and the P&W station converted into a stub end terminal, it would have been impossible for P&W to turn the single ended cars for any return trip to 69th Street.
    Use of the 1000's on the Strafford route, or on the short turn Bryn Mawr trips would have presented a similar problem as neither location had enough room to construct a loop.
 Note on No 1030:  LVT 1030 was NOT a former Red Devil. It was the former IRR No. 55--- a simlar unit, but not a Red Devil. It was acquired from the IRR when LVT felt it needed additional Devil Type cars, but found that the other C&LE cars had been sold to Crandic ( Cedar Rapids & Iowa City RR).


« Last Edit: Jun 14th, 2007, 10:49pm by Walt_C » Logged

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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #2 on: Jun 14th, 2007, 10:58pm »
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Hi, Walt: Thanks for not only reminding me of what I already knew (but had forgotten!), but also filling me in on some details with which I was not familiar with! Yes, I now recall how worn out the fabled 100's were by the end of Liberty Bell service, and that the P&W did indeed purchase some components for thier own use. As you correctly pointed out, the fact that the 1000s were single-ended (unlike P&W's double-ended cars), certainly would have complicated matters a great deal, had the P&W purchased them for further service. a sad ending, though, to what had once been a glorious chapter in electric traction! thanks again for your insightful info!   John

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Walt_C
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Posts: 2934
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #3 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 12:55am »
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The 1000's/Red Devil Cars are probably my second favorite interurban cars ( second to, of course, the Bullet Cars) They are actually the direct "ancestors" of the Bullets, having been designed by the same people ( Thomas Conway and William Butler) who designed the Bullets, and Red Devil No. 127 ( Later LVT # 1004) was tested extensively on the P&W in 1930 as part of the development process for the Bullets. There is one Red Devil car in existence today--- it is one of the 110 series coaches that were sold to Crandic. The LVT cars were the deluxe versions, with a lounge section in the rear. They were retired by C&LE in 1938 when the long Springfield- Toledo run (the Toledo Division) was shut down by C&LE. The 110's lasted on the C&LE for another year until the entire interurban was abandoned.  It is a shame that all of the former C&LE deluxe Devils were scrapped, but they were in such bad shape, and although the Seashore Museum was in existence, the preservation movement hadn't really taken hold yet, so it was probably natural for LVT to scrap them.

« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2007, 12:57am by Walt_C » Logged

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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #4 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 1:16am »
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     Hi, Walt: As is obvious from your previous posts (and what I've read elsewhere) the story of the Red Devils, up to and including their reincarnation as Liberty Bell Limiteds is one that is far from dull. There is a pic in this old book I have about the 1000's, showing No. 1030 stored at the MTA's (Boston) Everett carhouse, awaiting delivery to the Seashore Trolley Museum. Without a doubt, this beautiful car certainly was favored by the gods!!   John

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Walt_C
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Posts: 2934
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #5 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 1:25am »
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John--- If you can find a copy, pick up Jack Kennan's book Cincinnati & Lake Erie Railroad-- Ohio's Great Interurban  This is the definative story of the Red Devils ( and of both the C&LE and its predecessor the Ohio Electric Railroad).

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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #6 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 1:27am »
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 Hi, Walt: Thanks! Never heard of the book! I'll have to keep that one in mind!  John

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Warren_Thompson
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Posts: 403
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #7 on: Jun 15th, 2007, 11:08am »
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on Jun 15th, 2007, 1:25am, Walt_C wrote:       (Click here for original message)
John--- If you can find a copy, pick up Jack Kennan's book Cincinnati & Lake Erie Railroad-- Ohio's Great Interurban  This is the definitive story of the Red Devils ( and of both the C&LE and its predecessor the Ohio Electric Railroad).

 
As well, there is a sort of "companion title," to be read in conjunction with the Keenan book: David McNeil, ed., Remembering the CIncinnati & Lake Erie RR, Docu Star 2005. It has a great many photos and maps, along with a number of personal recollections.  
 
Unfortunately, it's a poorly bound paperback whose pages have a maddening habit of falling out, and, because of the type of paper used, many of the photos are far from clear.  
 
{Keenan's title is long out of print, but I bet used copies can be obtained through Amazon and ABE.}
 
 
 


« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2007, 11:15am by Warren_Thompson » Logged
Walt_C
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #8 on: Jun 16th, 2007, 12:28am »
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on Jun 15th, 2007, 1:16am, O. WINSTON LINK esq. wrote:       (Click here for original message)
                There is a pic in this old book I have about the 1000's, showing No. 1030 stored at the MTA's (Boston) Everett carhouse, awaiting delivery to the Seashore Trolley Museum. Without a doubt, this beautiful car certainly was favored by the gods!!   John

 
 As displayed at Seashore, LVT 1030 is a straight coach, but for most of its life on the LVT, it was a deluxe parlor car, complete with plush carpeting, overstuffed arm chairs, which faced the center of the car on each side, drapes on the windows in the rear lounge section, and reading lamps ( complete with lamp shades).  It had been a parlor car on the IRR. With the severe deterioration of the other 1000's by 1947, with cars needing major repairs simply being shunted onto a storage track, LVT was forced to convert No. 1030 into a straight coach and removed the easy chairs, carpeting lamps and drapes in  1947. This is the way the car appears now.  There is a good, though black & white, photo of the interior of No 1030, as a parlor car, on page 280 of the original ( 1972) edition of Ronald Degraw's The Red Arrow. You have to get the original edition, as the later edition only ran up to1948 and did not contain anything on the P&W ( or LVT).


« Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2007, 12:29am by Walt_C » Logged

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RDG_4-8-4
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #9 on: Jun 19th, 2007, 12:29am »
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I have seen and ran the 1030 at Seashore and I must tell you that it has it's original (LVT) parlor interior of single seating facing each other with the isle in the middle.  She looks MINT both inside and out.  I have photos but they are buried somewhere.

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O. WINSTON LINK esq.
Former Member
Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #10 on: Jun 19th, 2007, 2:41pm »
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       It is indeed most fortunate that No. 1030 still survives today.....the very last of her breed. If only she had been restored to her parlor car configuration! Man, talk about going "first class"!! Certainly, that is no longer possible on the ex-P&W out of 69th St., the same route once used by No. 1030 and her smartly-attired sisters, once upon a yesteryear.......     John

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Walt_C
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #11 on: Jun 19th, 2007, 8:48pm »
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on Jun 19th, 2007, 12:29am, RDG_4-8-4 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I have seen and ran the 1030 at Seashore and I must tell you that it has it's original (LVT) parlor interior of single seating facing each other with the isle in the middle.  She looks MINT both inside and out.  I have photos but they are buried somewhere.

 
 Seashore has restored the car to its original parlor car configuration. When I saw the car, on my only trip to Seashore back in the 1980's it was configured as a straight coach.  No 1030 was a parlor car on the IRR ( as IRR No. 55) having been converted by the IRR in 1934. One interesting note, when Seashore acquired the car, its trucks had already been sold to the junk man. The trucks which were ultimately provided were taken from C&LE Red Devil No. 123--- the car that raced an airplane ( a biplane) in a filmed publicity stunt when the Devils were introduced back in 1930. ( The interurban won the race).


« Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2007, 8:57pm by Walt_C » Logged

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RDG_4-8-4
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #12 on: Jun 21st, 2007, 10:06am »
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No. 1030 had it's trucks replaced with No. 1002's.  No. 1002 was originally No. 126 which hit 97 MPH while racing a biplane.   Still 3 MPH short of Bullet 207's unofficial 100 MPH speed test.  But No. 1030 DOES run today with its parlor car interior.

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Walt_C
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #13 on: Jun 21st, 2007, 12:03pm »
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on Jun 21st, 2007, 10:06am, RDG_4-8-4 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
No. 1030 had it's trucks replaced with No. 1002's.  No. 1002 was originally No. 126 which hit 97 MPH while racing a biplane.   Still 3 MPH short of Bullet 207's unofficial 100 MPH speed test.  But No. 1030 DOES run today with its parlor car interior.

 I stand corrected--- it was  No. 126 that raced the airplane. There is a Photo of No. 122 with a side banner stating "See this car race an airplane" but it was actually 126 that won the race. And there is a nice model of No. 123 in the Smithsonian.


« Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2007, 7:27pm by Walt_C » Logged

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Warren_Thompson
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #14 on: Jun 21st, 2007, 3:17pm »
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on Jun 21st, 2007, 12:03pm, Walt_C wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 I stand corrected--- it was  No. 126 that raced the airplane. There is a Photo of No. 123 with a side banner stating "See this car race an airplane" but it was actually 126 that won the race. BTW there is a nice model of No. 123 in the Smithsonian.

 
There was also a "contest" on US 40 between a Red Devil and a race car. There's a photo on p.69 of the McNeil volume (car number and date are not given).
 
I wonder who won?  


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Walt_C
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #15 on: Jun 21st, 2007, 7:23pm »
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on Jun 21st, 2007, 3:17pm, Warren_Thompson wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
There was also a "contest" on US 40 between a Red Devil and a race car. There's a photo on p.69 of the McNeil volume (car number and date are not given).
 
I wonder who won?  

 
 The "Devil" in that race was No. 122. No 123 trailed No 122 taking photos. Like No 126, No 122 won its race attaining a top speed of 92 MPH.  (BTW, it was No 127-- the, car that was used for preliminary development testing on the P&W for the Bullet Cars, that trailed No 126 in the earlier race, also taking photos.)


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RDG_4-8-4
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #16 on: Jun 21st, 2007, 8:20pm »
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No. 127 became LVT No. 1004, which was completely destroyed by fire and replaced by No. 1030.

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Walt_C
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #17 on: Jun 21st, 2007, 11:02pm »
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on Jun 21st, 2007, 8:20pm, RDG_4-8-4 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
No. 127 became LVT No. 1004, which was completely destroyed by fire and replaced by No. 1030.

 
Isn't it interesting ( as Mr. Spok would use the term) how we began, two or three posts into this thread, discussing No 1030 and now, with the description of the ultimate fate of No. 127/1004 whose demise led to the aquisition of No 1030, we've come full circle. LVT first tried to purchase one of the coach versions of the Devils ( the 110 series) from C&LE, but found that they had all been sold to Crandic. This is when they found IRR No 55 and purchased it.


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GP72ACe

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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #18 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 3:33am »
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As for the Liberty Bell Service's off-street route, parts of it are being rail-trailed.  (Don't ask me why, but I regard that as a huge waste of taxpayer dollars.)

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Warren_Thompson
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Re: LVT 1000's on P&W?
 
« Reply #19 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 10:49am »
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on Jul 1st, 2007, 3:33am, GP72ACe wrote:       (Click here for original message)
As for the Liberty Bell Service's off-street route, parts of it are being rail-trailed.  (Don't ask me why, but I regard that as a huge waste of taxpayer dollars.)

 
I live for the day when there's a powerful movement for "trails-to-rails." Thus, I'll likely live forever.


« Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2007, 10:50am by Warren_Thompson » Logged
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