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Mallard is fastest steam loco?
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   Author  Topic: Mallard is fastest steam loco?  (Read 3323 times)
CHESSIEMIKE
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #60 on: Jan 17th, 2007, 9:47pm »
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on Jan 17th, 2007, 10:56am, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Suppose you know that the piston and valve rods on the 4-8-8-4 were cut, which makes rebuild even more difficult than would be the case with most display engines. Possible, but harder and more expensive.
Yeah, U.P. found that was a lot cheaper way to give away a steamer. But it would not be a deal breaker, there are others that have not been cut that could be used outright or for a pattern to make new ones.
CHESSIEMIKE
 


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ClydeDET
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #61 on: Jan 18th, 2007, 11:08am »
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Yes, I do know taht tehre are surviving 4000s that could contribute the needed parts or patterns - but one more expense.  
 
That said - I'd say the big 4-8-8-4s are probably about the last engines I'd suggest rebuilding for excursion service. Too big, too heavy, too a lot of things that would limit where they could go.
 
I'd like to see something like the TExas State Railroad  #500 (ex-Santa Fe) 4-6-2 on a mainline, even in the Southern-style green and gold (Santa Fe black and silver would be better, but take what you can get, eh?).
 
I'd also like to see some of the other engines that are operable (like the Cotton BElt 4-8-4) running more. Teh whole insurance bit is a crock,a s we all know. But as long as it can be used, I guess it will be.


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Henry
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #62 on: Jan 18th, 2007, 4:09pm »
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Guys, we're getting off topic here, this thread is supposed to be about the fastest steam locos, not restorations!
 
Henry


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52_2006

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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #63 on: Jan 19th, 2007, 10:29am »
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Returning to topic... I have two goodies for you, provided by Dampfossi to Youtube.  
 
This is the fastest still serviceable steam loco of the world. It can run 180 km/h, but in this video the Pacific it just runs slow through a railyard:
 
DR 18 201 (sometimes also named 02 0201): Here
 
A german class 01.5 Pacific (class 01 Reko) from DR running at 120 km/h:
 
DR 01 01531 (sometimes also named 01 513):Here


« Last Edit: Jan 19th, 2007, 10:33am by 52_2006 » Logged

kondensierte Grüße,

Stefan

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52_2006

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Currently TGV is even to go faster than 515 km/h
 
« Reply #64 on: Jan 25th, 2007, 3:30pm »
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Slightly offtopic. The french SNCF currently (since 18th of January 2007) is trying to compete their own record from May 1990, when they reached 515 km/h with a TGV. The new project has the working title "150 meters per second", that means 540 km/h. The runs are done on the new highspeed line Paris to Strasbourg. On 23th of January on a test run they already reached again 514 km/h, just below of the world record. The date for the official test run at 540 km/h is not known yet. As I read somewhere they have increased the voltage of the line, increased the size of the wheels and removed some accessories from a TGV-POS to get it lighter.
 
Some details in french can be read here:
 
http://www.cheminots.net/forum/lofiversion/index.php/t5202.html
http://www.espacerails.com/forum/index.php?page=reponse&p_page=7&sujet=690
 
In one of the threads they say that even 600 km/h could be reachable, but my french language knowledge is not as good enough to be sure about this.


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kondensierte Grüße,

Stefan

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ClydeDET
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #65 on: Jan 25th, 2007, 5:55pm »
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Will be ineresting to see GEorge HArris's take on the project - he's ahd some interesting things to tell us about TGV in the apst.

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George_Harris
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #66 on: Jan 25th, 2007, 11:29pm »
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Yes, we are a little afield of the mallard fastest steam locomotive question, but:
 
Reading at, which is the best I can say since I don't read French the info on the cheminots.net reference:
 
It looks like this attempt will be made in a similar vein to the earlier 515.3 km/h record, unless what they are giving is the list of modifications made for the earlier attempt.  If they have enough length of track to speed up and slow down, I see no reason whatsoever they can not make the speed they are proposing, whether it be 540 km/h or 600 km/h.  They are probably approaching the point where under all but the best of dry rail conditions the tractive effort required equals or would exceed the adhesion available.
 
It appears that they are wanting to see what happens above 500 km/h.  All theories about what will happen so far are based on extrapolations of data from lower speed operation, and generally data in sufficient quantity to be reliable is only for under 300 km/h, so the extrapolation is getting long enough to be quite shaky.  The rationale behind the changes"
 
Shorten the train to improve the power to weight ratio.
Increase the wheel diameter to reduce the rotational speed of the motor and also to increase the rail contact area.
Increase the voltage to increase the actual power available per motor
Increase the wire tension to increase the propagation rate of the standing wave from pantograph uplift.  Don't know the numbers, but at these speeds you are approaching the rate at which the wave travels along the wire.  Once you exceed that speed, the pantograph is effectively seeing a rigid contact.
Increase the spring force in the pantograph to improve continuity of contact and thereby reduce arcing.
 
They should also wet the ballast to reduce dust, but on the other hand if the rail gets wet it will reduce the available adhesion, which they should not allow to happen.   Chances are at this speed it just would mean that the cloud of dust you pick up with the air turbulence around the train would be wet instead of dry.  
 
12,8MW is the total proposed power of the train.  Remember, the continental Europeans use a comma as a decimal when writing numbers.  So, this is 12.8 MegaWatts = 17,160 horsepower, that is 17 thousand 160 horsepower to make clear that I am using the comma as we normally use a comma in the US (and UK) for what will be a train of two power cars and three coaches if I understand the French correctly.  My guess for train weight would be somewhere in the 250 to 300 ton range, so we have a power to weight ratio of 60 to 70 hp/ton.  Kinda low for a car, but huge for a train.  
 
George


« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2007, 2:53am by George_Harris » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #67 on: Feb 2nd, 2007, 4:25pm »
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Ought to be an interesting sight - and a well-translated copy of the report and data reduction would be sot of interesting as well, I'd think. Let's hope nothing goes wrong, since it wouldn't take much to create a truly spectacular pile-up. Which I wouldn't wish even on the Fwench

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George_Harris
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #68 on: Feb 2nd, 2007, 11:50pm »
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on Jan 19th, 2007, 10:29am, 52_2006 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Returning to topic... I have two goodies for you, provided by Dampfossi to Youtube.  
 
This is the fastest still serviceable steam loco of the world. It can run 180 km/h, but in this video the Pacific it just runs slow through a railyard:
 
DR 18 201 (sometimes also named 02 0201):

Let's just say, in Europe.  I am inclined to believe the the Daylight 4-8-4 and UP's 4-8-4 with their 80 inch drivers could both leave it in the dust if they could get on track where they could really stretch their legs.  Unfortunately, just about all the tracks they ever get to be out on are limited to 79 mph or less.  
 
George


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ClydeDET
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #69 on: Feb 5th, 2007, 10:55am »
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180km/hr works out to around 112 mph. Any of the surviving western road 4-8-4s could make that on good rail if allowed to. Santa Fe, SP or UP. And at least one 70" Eastern coal road Northern should be able to as well - N&W 611...

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52_2006

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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #70 on: Feb 16th, 2007, 2:24pm »
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A bit off-topic: TGV reached 553 km/h these days. But SNCF plans to increase again, the train runned at 75% of maximum power, they expect to reach 570.

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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #71 on: Mar 8th, 2007, 11:23am »
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Ran across this post on another forum regarding high speed testing of the Union Pacific FEF-3 class.  No way to verify obviously but still interesting:
 
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/46660482/m/4291042234?r=3741083234#3741083234
 
--Reed


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ClydeDET
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #72 on: Mar 9th, 2007, 3:52pm »
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Well, could probably actually instrument 4449, 844, and whatever else in the way of 4-8-4s that are running, get some numbers for actaul dynamic augment and such, and figure out what you actually could run one too without being sure of breaking something important (like - a rod or a rail...), what with the wonders of moden computers and all.
 
I'm sort of guessing, but I suspect that 125-130 would be possible with a number of them, but I doubt that much over 130 would be possible.


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George_Harris
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #73 on: Mar 10th, 2007, 2:47am »
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Instrumenting them and then working out the forces with increasing speed would be good, but then somewhere, sometime these engines have to be got out and run for the world to see.  The main problem is where?  Where can we find the track in this country that is straight enough for a long enough distance that this can be done.  In addition to straight enough for a long enough distance there is also the issue of getting the track time.  You will fairly well need a day that you can shut the line down to other traffic.  And then, to do it legal you need a track with the ATS or cab signals applied.  Fairly level would be nice to avoid the claim that it could only be done because you were going downhill.  You probably need about 30 to 50 miles to allow for speed up, slow down, some time at the full speed, and over run distance.  And oh, yeah, avoid heavily populated areas, and a line with good clearances.  
 
The northeast corridor would be out.  Maybe some part of the former ATSF transcon, but what do you do with all the trains normally on it?  A section of the UP main across Nebraska would be good, but the same problem with what do you do with the normal traffic?  The former ACL main would have been good, but the full double track is gone, so you are constantly having the end of double track section turnouts to deal with, and detouring a lot of trains, including Amtrak.  Any volunteers out there?
 
If we ever build the California High Speed Railway, the section up the valley would be a good candidate in its just completed but not yet in service condition, BUT . . . you would have to have built the structures and track for the heavy axle loads, not just for the lightweight passenger trains, and also not let anybody talk them into setting the overhead wire to the low elevation used in Europe or Japan.  
 
The rules:  10 cars, about 600 tons, equipment cleared for high speeds.  Measurements taken electronically over a distance of not less than 5 miles of level track with times recorded at 0.2 mile intervals.  You can apply full width vestibule fillers and should have a round end observation, but no additional streamlining to be applied to the engine and tender.  Downgrades on the acceleration portion allowed, but speed must be steady or rising on the level section where measurements are taken for the results to be regarded as valid.  Invite Guiness and the Railway Gazette to oversee the measurements, and watch them carefully to be sure they do it honestly.  After all, we are taking the record away from their home country.  
 
George


« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2007, 2:51am by George_Harris » Logged
52_2006

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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #74 on: Mar 10th, 2007, 4:17am »
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Bring your engines to France, to the brand new TGV east line through the Champagne, from Paris to Strasbourg. Until 10th of June 2007 the line is still (mostly) unused, as this is the official opening date for this connection between Germany and Paris. Until then, enough time to increase the world record of the fastetest steam locomotive! The new TGV line is long and flat enough, the TGV increased it's top speed again on this line, it just reached 557 km/h a few days ago on this track.
 
If you bring the american locos, let's get the englishemens with their Mallards and the DB Museum with 05 001 there as well. It will be the race of the century!!!


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George_Harris
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #75 on: Mar 10th, 2007, 1:22pm »
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on Mar 10th, 2007, 4:17am, 52_2006 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Bring your engines to France, to the brand new TGV east line through the Champagne, from Paris to Strasbourg. Until 10th of June 2007 the line is still (mostly) unused, as this is the official opening date for this connection between Germany and Paris. Until then, enough time to increase the world record of the fastetest steam locomotive! The new TGV line is long and flat enough, the TGV increased it's top speed again on this line, it just reached 557 km/h a few days ago on this track.
 
If you bring the american locos, let's get the englishemens with their Mallards and the DB Museum with 05 001 there as well. It will be the race of the century!!!

Wonderful thought, except . . . these American engines all exceed the design load for any railroad bridge in Europe designed in accordance with the UIC loading diagram.  
 
If I have my numbers right, the maximum axle load for most European systems is 22.5 tonnes.  The UIC bridge loading diagram, which is quite similar to the American Cooper's laoding diagram in positioning of loads, has four axles of 25 tonnes or 250 kiloNewtons. For the American side, 250 kN = 56,200 pounds.  
 
For the three primary candidate American engines:
UP 844, 67,000 lb on each driver = 30.39 tonne = 298.0 kN  
UP 844 total engine and tender on 15 axles, 908,000 lb = 411.9 tonne = 4039 kN  
 
SP 4449, 68,925 lb on each driver = 31.26 tonne = 306.6 kN
SP 4449 total engine and tender on 14 axles, 883,000 lb = 400.5 tonne = 3928 kN
 
ATSF 3700's, 74,000 lb on each driver = 33.57 tonne = 329.2 kN
ATSF 3700's total engine and tender on 16 axles, 961,000 lb =  435.9 tonne = 4275 kN
 
And, in addition to axle loads all over 30 tonne, let's not forget that these things were all over 15 feet high, so that would be in the 4.6 to 4.8 meter height range.  I am not sure that they would fit under the wire safely, and really doubt that SNCF would be willing to allow these monsters on their track because of their weight, much as I would really love to see them given a chance to prove to the world what they could do.  
 
George


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Pennsy
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #76 on: Mar 10th, 2007, 2:24pm »
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Hi George,
 
Well that does explain why the Flying Scotsman has been here more than once and has had no problems on American rails. However, it would be interesting to see a GG-1 on European rails, let alone an American steamer.  Check out my comments on a Big Boy in Australia. Be easier to accommodate a Garrat in America.


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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #77 on: Mar 10th, 2007, 4:08pm »
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The point in instrumenting and getting some numbers and then crunching them is to help convince the folks who have the track taht we aren't gonna bust nothing and taht we promise to put a radar gun on the front of the engine with a read-out in front of the engineer so he'll know when he is approaching the speed where something CAN be expected to get over-loaded and break.
 
Then we just seize part of the old Santa Fe across eastern Colorado and KAnsas for a few days and run our trains...
 
I think that's probably the best place. Or the old SP fron San Antonio east toward Hosuton. LEvel, mostly straighht and good ehavy rail abd well-maintained.


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RDG_4-8-4
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #78 on: Mar 10th, 2007, 10:25pm »
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How about the Atlantic Coast Line, or the Milwaukee Road's Chicago-Milwaukee line?  Talk about STRAIGHT and level.

« Last Edit: Mar 10th, 2007, 10:25pm by RDG484 » Logged
George_Harris
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Re: Mallard is fastest steam loco?
 
« Reply #79 on: Mar 11th, 2007, 10:20am »
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True about the calculations and the instrumentation.  It does need to be done first.  Then let's run trains.    
 
Was't thinking about the Milwaukee main.  Does it have ATS?  That would be a nice location to do it.  The former ACL wouldn't work because a lot of the second main is no longer there, so you are dealing with end of double track turnouts about every 10 miles.
 
George
 
By the way:
 
pounds / 2.2046 = kilograms
1000 kilograms = 1 tonne
tonnes * 9.80665 = kiloNewtons (kN)
9.80665 m/s^2 = acceleration of gravity, and is a conversion of 32.174 ft/s^2


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