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Topic: NS Steam Program vs. UP Steam Program (Read 1369 times) |
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D._E._Jones
TRAINing
Posts: 22
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Clyde,
I have thought the same thing, and along with the SSW 819, T&P 610 would make a nice addition to the UP family heritage fleet. Old 610 happens to be my favorite steam locomotive , and is now kept inside a building at the Texas State Railroad, and is probably still in pretty good condition.
D. E. Jones
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ClydeDET
Historian
Posts: 3149
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T&P 610 is and isn't in good shape. It has been out of service, but in covered storage with very slow work done since it came off lease with the Southern. I understand it has a lot of relatively minor, in detail, but major in aggregate, work required. Lots of (maybe essentially all) auxiliary systems need to be fully rebuilt, or at least given what Uncle used to call IROAN ("Inspect, Repair Only As Necessary") overhaul. Boiler probably needs overhaul and get an FRA inspection, may been new driver tires, or at least profiling. Lots of stuff needed. And I think it is an all friction-bearing machine, including tender trucks, and that may be a problem.
But I'd sure lie to see it running again, on the mainlines.
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joneau765
Historian
Posts: 3611
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If anybody has read Steam Today, there's a rather straight-forward message why the NS Steam Program failed: it didn't really have a mission, as the runs were mainly done by trip organizers ("The tail wagging the dog.") Whereas the UP Steam Program is always working out with a mission, obviously to connect with their communities and their customers.
The article also stated that UP doesn't have any engines that their own because even if it's someone else's engine, equipment, and a failure of the organizers part, UP will always get the bad press. (Damn you lawsuits!)
One obvious difference between the two: UP has pretty much only had 844(4) and 3985 representing the railroad, whereas the SOU/NS program had... I lost count at about 12. Anybody know how many engines the program had, and how many of them are still running?
We seem the be in the day where more railroads are looking more toward their heritage, so there's a glimpse of hope to what may eventually happen (in other words: CSX and NS can't say no forever!)
For a final note: after seeing this, I'd really like to see 610 run as well
- Jonathan
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ClydeDET
Historian
Posts: 3149
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Seeing T&P #610 in steam again would be a great plesure, just don't know if it will happen in my life (I'm about to turn 65 and probably don't have too many years left...).
I'd also like to see the 7=Spot running again, and Frisco 4501 (4-8-4), both from Age of Steam at Dallas (about to move to Plano from Fair park at Dallas).
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martinm1218
Railfan
Posts: 223
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Just to put this out there. NS got alot of their ideas for their steam program from the UP's steam program.
Martin
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N&W 611 and 1218: The Thoroughbreds of steam.
I also enjoy the NKP, Southern, and VGN.
Here is a link to my youtube videos.
http://www.youtube.com/user/m611martin
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donniebilson
Chaser
Posts: 100
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You all really shouldnt get mad at David Goode because of his decision to close the NS steam program. I have an old trains magazine issue that tells about the last days of the steam program, it said that the decision was hard for Mr. Goode he even said that it was a hard decision for him because steam was in his blood and he loved listening to the trains and watching the action, but I think in a way it was probably a good idea because if insurance rates kept skyrocketing and the expense of running the engines kept increasing NS probably would have gone bankrupt if they kept pushing to run it.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2009, 10:44pm by donniebilson » |
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I love the Norfolk Southern,the N&W,Southern railway, and Lehigh Valley. Check out my youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/trainmandan05
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ClydeDET
Historian
Posts: 3149
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on Oct 26th, 2009, 10:41pm, donniebilson wrote: (Click here for original message)| You all really shouldnt get mad at David Goode because of his decision to close the NS steam program. I have an old trains magazine issue that tells about the last days of the steam program, it said that the decision was hard for Mr. Goode he even said that it was a hard decision for him because steam was in his blood and he loved listening to the trains and watching the action, but I think in a way it was probably a good idea because if insurance rates kept skyrocketing and the expense of running the engines kept increasing NS probably would have gone bankrupt if they kept pushing to run it. |
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Not even close. The way a major corporation gets its insurance (actually - usually reinsurance and excess casualty loss) coverage is VERY different from what a private organization faces. And a LOT cheaper. The cost of the program (written off as advertising and customer relations) was minescule FOR THE COMPANY. Above the line business expense (ask your tax guy about those), probably actually save them money in the whole scheme of things.
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Gadfly
Railfan
Posts: 157
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Still there are a lot of expenses that the fans DON'T see. The operation of ANY train necessarily involves employes that would not otherwise be engaged in duties that directly affect the steam train. Excursions cause (and I am NOT putting down steam excursions, BTW) additional work such as moving crews from place to place, the track supervisors get involved (an example is turning the engines on Wyes to see they don't damage rail), moving supplies around, bring food and ice to the concession cars, people from engine crews to clerks to yard masters to trainmasters must be involved, dealing with phones JUMPING off the HOOK in the yard and freight offices (even tho people have been told: PLEASE!! Don't CALL the railroad people, call
"THIS" number, but they do it anyway. There's the matter of train orders or track warrants, causing system gangs to have to clear up for this extra train on the lineup.
Its delays, a MILLION questions from the public, MOBS of people flooding the station and depot, SHOOING people OUT of places they don't belong, and extra people being called off the 'board to work because of this extra move.
But, SEE? To the fans, the fellows in the striped overalls, red bandanas and patches all over their hats, it all fun and games. After all, railroading is just this wonderful game of choo choos around a Christmas tree, and dreamy-eyed workers who just ADORE to come into work, or remain overtime to work or see this wonderful steam train. Why, they'd do it for FREE, because it's such FUN ??!!!!!!  Right?? NOT!!!! HeeHee! You guys don't see the real railroad people trying to "play" the extra board, or get permission to MARK OFF to avoid the madhouse that is coming!!!!!! Yes, I am being a bit sarcastic, but it is to help you see that there's more to this than meets the eye. One thing I failed to mention is, union contracts often dictate that scheduled employees have rights to certain types of work (the Scope Agreements), and it can't be done by volunteers lest the company suffer what is called a "Time Ticket" or "Time Claim". And it happens from time to time just because some eager beaver fan started doing work that belongs to an employee thinking he's "helping". It's a thrill for HIM, livelihood for the railroad worker!!!
I don't care if it is UP, NS, or anyone else, STEAM TRAINS COST EXTRA MONEY. Like so many speculations on this and other boards, YOU HAVE LITTLE BASIS TO EVEN HAVE A CLUE, MUCH LESS KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT DRIVES MANAGEMENT TO EITHER ACCEPT OR REJECT EXCURSIONS. Each railroad operates a little differently in response to their traffic level, regional inputs, different management focus, and corporate goals. What happens on UP doesn't necessarily mean it is the thing to do on NS. NS is a very successful, lean & mean corporation whose main goal is to make a profit, pay dividends, and survive in VERY tough economic environment. An ethic of "moral equvilency" does not apply here. If I had to put my money somewhere, I would bet on both NS and UP because they have similar but different styles in response to their own environments. If you swapped the two roads out, moving NS west, and UP to the East Coast, they would adapt, but also run things a little differently.
Maybe NS will relent one of these days, but I don't see it in the near future.
GF
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ClydeDET
Historian
Posts: 3149
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Little over the top there, gadfly. But - nothing unusual in that. Might want to talk to your doc about your medication level though - there is help....
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Gadfly
Railfan
Posts: 157
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It really doesn't bother me either way. I've DONE mine and the old "eagle"
flies faithfully to my mailbox every month! The difference in many of the speculators on the OUTSIDE and ME? I LIVED it! I HEARD it directly from the mouths of Terminal Agents and Superintendents. I listened to track supervisors cuss like a sailor when they had to fool with the steam trains! I heard them talk so very "ugly" about having to come in and be on hand 'in case'. "I'D BE SO GLAD IF THESE &^$#@ steam trains would go away," one local agent fussed to me.
Oh yeah, it was all fun and games, boys. And, yep, I was one of the guys who tried to manipulate the extra board so I wouldn't have to BE in the Yard when that thing hit town. What we tried to do is watch the board to see if we were due to go back to the board off an assignment. So we'd "have a Dr's appointment" on a certain day so we'd either go back to the bottom of the board, or, better, go back AFTER the steam train left town. It didn't always work, either, but we tried to avoid the excursions IF we could; it was just TOO much of a good (?) thing. Even the managers commented (after or during scolding us for asking to mark off) commented that they could see why we didn't want to work 'em!!!!
It's a lot of work, as I said, that the fans and general public doesn't see. It is a lot of EXPENSE they don't see, either! For them it is just so much FUN they could just pop wide open!!!!!!! I don't know if it is "over the top", but it is HUGELY expensive. It does have some public relations value, the question being: is it enough to justify it? Will some SUE the railroad over a too-hot cup of coffee? Or because they tripped over a rail (that was in a place where the fellow had no business being to start with?) No doubt the Tidewater, Virginia had to get 'em thinking about the risks and got the bean counting nerds in Norfolk tugging at sleeves!
GF
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rwk
Historian
Posts: 644
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It's each individual railroad's decision if they want to have running steam or not. Reading and Northern does it because Andy Muller wanted to restore 425 and they have an excursion business anyway. Steamtown does it because it's STEAMtown, not DIESELtown, Strasburg does it because that's their mission to have steam-powered trains, NS won't do it because it's more liability for them vs. the short lines and tourist rr's and their primary business is to move freight which is what makes them money and they have shareholders to answer to. Bob Claytor loved steam, but he passed away to cancer April, 1993 and David Goode replaced him. What does Wick Moorman think about steam? Any possibility of #611, or #4501 coming back?
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rwk
Historian
Posts: 644
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Oh, couldn't NS and TVRM partner for any future steam program, service the locomotives at TVRM, perhaps have some excursions depart Grand Junction Station and head the other way onto the NS line like with the #4501? Would NS mind even just one or two long steam excursions a year?
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martinm1218
Railfan
Posts: 223
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on Nov 6th, 2009, 10:33pm, rwk wrote: (Click here for original message)| What does Wick Moorman think about steam? Any possibility of #611, or #4501 coming back? |
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I think Wick likes steam. He has done a lot for the Virginia Museum of Transportation in Roanoke. I think he would give support for any steam operation.
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N&W 611 and 1218: The Thoroughbreds of steam.
I also enjoy the NKP, Southern, and VGN.
Here is a link to my youtube videos.
http://www.youtube.com/user/m611martin
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Gadfly
Railfan
Posts: 157
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on Nov 6th, 2009, 10:46pm, martinm1218 wrote: (Click here for original message)
I think Wick likes steam. He has done a lot for the Virginia Museum of Transportation in Roanoke. I think he would give support for any steam operation. |
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Sure, Mr Moorman "likes" steam trains. After all, who out there "hates" them? Yes, they are fun and exciting (if YOU ain't the ones having to fool with them)!!! Mr. Moorman is also a BUSINESSMAN; he didn't get to the TOP floor of the corporation by NOT being one. Economic times are TOUGH.
NS is making it in this cutthroat world, and they will get thru it because their management team is tiptop. So "liking steam" or NOT liking steam is not the issue. (Boys, sometimes I would be very frightened if many the fans actually ran a RR!  I don't think the company would LAST what with all the "pouting" and emphasis on what is actually an oddity and an extra burden on the company instead of focusing on maximizing profits, trimming costs, and making the most efficient use of its assets. That, basically, is any CEO's highest concern. If profit levels and consumer confidence returns, maybe the Board might consider it, especially if someone would be willing to share the costs and insurance premiums! There's got to be a HUGE reson for doing it other than, "Well, Union Pacific does it, so............"
While I am sure fans don't want to hear it, YOU are not the primary reason for the railroads' existence! All the choo choo stuff, photos, and things that railroad buffs think is very important, is just VERY far down the list of priorities for the companies. I am sure we all realize this. (Well, MOST of us do!) 
GF
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rwk
Historian
Posts: 644
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Then, why does Reading and Northern have a successful steam program? Why does Steamtown run steam with taxpayer dollars? Is it because those railroads are smaller than NS and don't have the shareholders and return on investment to worry about? I'm sure Reading and Northern has enough insurance to cover their #425 excursions on the main line. Is it insurance NS is worried about? Or the cost of bringing it back, even in a "limited" form like R&N is doing, with only one or two operating steam locomotives and only a few excursions a year?
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Espee9180
Historian
Posts: 469
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Reading and Northern is a small railroad compared to NS that doesn't have to worry about holding up timed trailer or intermodal with some steam engine just to please a bunch of railfans who rather then buy tickets would rather chase and possibly cause accidents on the roads following said steam locomotive.
Look at the crazy chasers who go after #844 and #3985. It's like a rolling battle ground at 75+mph; and that's on open western highways and roads. Now put those ppl on narrow eastern mountain/southern two lane roads...
NS has a public image with it's; in my opinion; the best looking OCS train of any Class I and therefore doesn't need a steam program.
Sorry if I offend anyone just my 2 cents...
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http://www.youtube.com/user/Espee9180
"In the old Pennsylvania Station, one entered the city like a god, in the new, one scuttles in like a rat." - Vincent Scully.
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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 1633
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Gadfly - CC: All -
Gotta' say I appreciate your cranky observations that: Hey, guys, they are just trying to run a productive business here!
The "Steam Excursions" point is a fairly minor distraction. Where it has all become completely zany is with the various passenger transport issues,
backed by huge wads of "Free Lunch Money" (that I don't recall ever being asked to vote upon, up or down) that keep popping up.
So, it was with much interest that here, in another topical area, a message of an "APB" from NS. Something of a "letter of understanding" to whom
it may concern with advice to breathless, dreamy eyed visions in running passenger trains on NS track. The railroad's position, if I understand it
correctly: We'll listen to anything. Just keep in mind we first must agree that we expect to send bills for full recovery of all costs...
One of the "Top Ten" of the silliest. Picture a middling sized town that, because of overzealous boosterism, experiences angst and civic shame, as
it is not visited with its own heavy rail commute system. In this case, the other worldly proposition: Why, just run those few (realistically, needless)
trains on the heavily trafficked UP Transcon Line! (And, watch the amusing damage to the railroad's cargo scheduling!)...
....................Vern..................
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| « Last Edit: Nov 8th, 2009, 9:44am by HwyHaulier » |
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Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
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Pennsy
Historian
Posts: 4479
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Famous story re; 3985; The engine visited Southern California, LA area, and I had the chance to go on board her. I looked around the cab and said to the hostler, I have never been on board this engine before, but everything seems familiar and comfortable, how come ? He said to me, have you ever been in the cab of a Big Boy ? I responded in the affirmative and told him that 4014 was only a few miles away in the Fairplex in Pomona. He told me that the cabs were identical. I was amazed.
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Gadfly
Railfan
Posts: 157
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on Nov 7th, 2009, 10:37pm, rwk wrote: (Click here for original message)| Then, why does Reading and Northern have a successful steam program? Why does Steamtown run steam with taxpayer dollars? Is it because those railroads are smaller than NS and don't have the shareholders and return on investment to worry about? I'm sure Reading and Northern has enough insurance to cover their #425 excursions on the main line. Is it insurance NS is worried about? Or the cost of bringing it back, even in a "limited" form like R&N is doing, with only one or two operating steam locomotives and only a few excursions a year? |
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Pout, pout, pout!!!!! I thought I answered those questions in my previous posts! But they CAN'T be answered at all when the questioner has his mind made UP and he is focused on HIS narrow agenda; that is, "I-wanna--have-my-toys-and-the-company-mission,-purpose-and-goals be d---ned" This "Reading & Northern" either has to have enough insurance, ready cash, or assets by LAW. Or if its NOT a law, and they don't, they are very stupid! No reasonable railroad, or any savvy corporation, would place themselves in such a dangerous position.
I said that it is just a fact that running steam programs for a mainline railroad is VERY expensive. Oh, sure, it does have some public relations value of which management is well aware. But the business environment in which the road operates must be taken into account, and each road's situation is different.............like customer base, traffic levels, future growth and anticipated traffic density, and, of course, costs associated with running JUST the railroad and an additional operation that is, after all, ONLY a "toy"! Sure, we don't want it expressed in those exact terms, but, let's face it: that IS what it is. Does the public CARE whether they run steam excursions or not? Probably not as it wasn't reflected in a great, big pout (loss of revenue) when NS ceased the program in the 90's The ones that CARE are a small, hard-core group of train buffs, and THEY do
NOT PAY THE BILLS! Gee whiz, fellas! I may be "cranky" but it is the ones that continue to ask "why" when presented valid reason why NOT-------THESE are the very ones I would NOT want running MY railroad! LMAO! YOU are focused on fun and games. The company is trying to make money the best way it can in a cutthroat world. Anything else is OPTIONAL!!!!
There are plenty of CEO's who "like" steam. It's NOT a matter of liking steam trains. These managers MUST return a profit, achieve the corporation's goals, and answer to the Board of Directors. To do so, he must separate BUSINESS from "TOYS". A steam train IS nothing more than a giant TOY!!!!! If he can't make that distinction, investments, revenue and dividends start to shrivel, and he will be OUT the door. I may be cranky, but I LIVED this stuff and I know how NS thinks!!!!!!
GF
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rwk
Historian
Posts: 644
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So, if you live in the northeast, best hope for long distance mainline steam is Reading and Northern or Steamtown, in the south, TVRM near Chattanooga, TN where they also offer all-day steam excursions 100 mile round trip. TVRM looks like the Steamtown of the South. #611 excursion Roanoke to Charlottesville? Only will happen of the right conditions exist. IF NS feels like spending money to restore #611, IF NS is willing to deal with all the problems running steam excursions, including all the foamers chasing the train, the insurance and liability concerns, having enough coaches in it's fleet for the excursion train (didn't they sell most of them off in 1995 or could they borrow some from the ocs?), will it happen? I'd say FAT CHANCE.
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