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Crazy Eights

Railfan.net Web Forums    Locomotives and Rolling Stock    Steam Locomotives (Moderators: Henry, CHESSIEMIKE)    Crazy Eights « Previous topic | Next topic » Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8  ...  14 (last) Reply     EMail Topic   Print    Author  Topic: Crazy Eights  (Read 4840 times) hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Crazy Eights   bng1.jpg - 68436 Bytes « on: Apr 1st, 2004, 3:09pm » Anything with eight drivers (single frame) is the topic here. 0-8-0, 2-8-0, 2-8-2 and up. Even the 4-4-4-4 is welcome! This way we'll be on topic and we can talk about Consolidations, Mikados and the like.     Here's my namesake... (not my pic)   Jim...     « Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2004, 5:35am by hummel1237 » Logged GP38 Historian Posts: 801 Re: Crazy Eights   DLW_4-8-2.jpg - 48426 Bytes « Reply #1 on: Apr 1st, 2004, 5:12pm » Another. Logged RDG484 Former Member Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #2 on: Apr 1st, 2004, 9:08pm » Lackawanna had air horns on their 4-8-2's as well, eh?  I've seen Pacifics, Hudsons and Poconos with them; Lackawanna must 've really liked the honkers! Logged hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #3 on: Apr 2nd, 2004, 3:03am » This is a really great start and thanks guys! Love those pics geepnine and reuter!   Here's a power question for "Pennsy" mostly; In the "Fabulous 4-8-4" thread you said the K-4 Pacific and the L-1 Mikado had the same boiler. Does this mean they had the same power as well? How does the size of the firebox affect the power? I guess where I'm going with this is here; eight drivers + same boiler = same power - true or false? I know a 4-8-4 must have more power than an 0-8-0 but what factors are at play here? Lackawanna was known to put two mikes together to pull heavy loads so you'd have 8 pony trucks and 16 drivers, same amount of wheels as a Big Boy. Since you didn't have to use second hand steam would two mikes have more power than a Big Boy?   Jim...     Take it easy on me - just trying to learn...     Anyone have any pics of a double mike header?   « Last Edit: Apr 2nd, 2004, 4:09am by hummel1237 » Logged hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #4 on: Apr 2nd, 2004, 2:44pm » Geepnine - that 4-8-2 Lackawanna you posted (2nd post) has different size pony trucks under the firebox/cab. What size are they and why are they bigger than the front four? Is that to make up for not having the extra set? If so then does a 4-8-2 have the same power as a 4-8-4? I know it's a very basic question but that's why I opened this thread - still some what new...   Jim...     I'll have to get my specs book out - I know...   « Last Edit: Apr 2nd, 2004, 2:46pm by hummel1237 » Logged GP38 Historian Posts: 801 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #5 on: Apr 2nd, 2004, 9:10pm » This is just a crazy guess, but the pony trailing truck under the firebox was probably bigger then the lead trucks because, of the giant amount of weight that the firebox had.  I`m no expert but those anthracite burning railroads had an extra thick firebox to withstand and burn that type of coal.  Sorry I don`t know the size of the wheels on the trailing truck. Logged hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #6 on: Apr 3rd, 2004, 11:06am » I looked in my specs book but couldn't find wheel sizes for the ponies or the rear firebox support wheels. It said SPs 4-8-2s had 73 1/2 inch drivers and the fire size and heat determines the power, which I thought, this is what a book says. I may have to carry a tape ruler with me on my next steam trip...   and a Berkshire is a 4-8-2 in reverse - 2-8-4...   Lots to learn...   Jim...     P.S. Does anyone have a pic of a Berk they can post? « Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2004, 11:21am by hummel1237 » Logged hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #7 on: Apr 3rd, 2004, 2:58pm » Charlie O looked up some things and came up with 30in to 32in on the front pilot wheels.   No word on the firebox wheel sizes - yet...   Thanks Charles!   Jim...   « Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2004, 3:02pm by hummel1237 » Logged GP72ACe   Posts: 827 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #8 on: Apr 3rd, 2004, 3:37pm » and a Berkshire is a 4-8-2 in reverse - 2-8-4   Well, of course not literally...I've always seen a Berkshire as a Mikado with a bigger firebox and all of the "super-power" accoutrements, taking a page out of Lima's ad copy    Mind you, let's blow some theory around—what would a cab-forward Berkshire-type (i.e. 2-8-4 from smokebox to firebox) be considered as, a cab-forward Mountain? Logged Pennsy Historian   Posts: 4479 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #9 on: Apr 3rd, 2004, 6:17pm » Hello Alan, our Irish colleague,   You have it correctly. The extra axles at the rear are to support larger and larger fireboxes for a larger and larger fire, for more heat and more steam. The extra axles behind the pilot also are there for the same reason, to support the larger weights of the larger smoke box and cylinders, for increasing the horsepower and tractive effort as well. Bottom line for all these size increases is more horsepower, and sustained horsepower.     Can you imagine the changes that would be necessary when the price of the oil and coal started to make the fuel expensive ? Of course, the next question would be, what do you do to keep the environmentalists and anti pollution people happy ?  That is why we have the EMD F-59 PHI. Logged GP72ACe   Posts: 827 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #10 on: Apr 3rd, 2004, 7:15pm » Well, actually the F59PHI is no longer FRA-compliant in terms of new emissions regulations; the current operating ones that are compliant would be the new freight locomotives and the DE/DM30AC and MP36PH-3C/3S out of new passenger locos (soon to be followed by NJ Transit's PL42AC)... Logged Mark_Foster Historian Posts: 918 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #11 on: Apr 3rd, 2004, 7:59pm » Geepnine,   Your picture of the DL&W 4-8-2 is, I believe, one of the series the Atlantic Coast Line bought from the Lackawanna to power the Southland from Tampa/St. Pete up the ACL's Perry Cutoff to Albanay, GA. The ACL did away with the air horns. I wonder if they didn't also have to make some firebox modifications to convert from burning anthracite to bituminous (soft) coal.   Mark Foster Logged hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #12 on: Apr 4th, 2004, 1:05am » on Apr 2nd, 2004, 3:03am, hummel1237 wrote:       (Click here for original message) This is a really great start and thanks guys! Love those pics geepnine and reuter!   Here's a power question for "Pennsy" mostly; In the "Fabulous 4-8-4" thread you said the K-4 Pacific and the L-1 Mikado had the same boiler. Does this mean they had the same power as well? How does the size of the firebox affect the power? I guess where I'm going with this is here; eight drivers + same boiler = same power - true or false? I know a 4-8-4 must have more power than an 0-8-0 but what factors are at play here? Lackawanna was known to put two mikes together to pull heavy loads so you'd have 8 pony trucks and 16 drivers, same amount of wheels as a Big Boy. Since you didn't have to use second hand steam would two mikes have more power than a Big Boy?   Jim...     Take it easy on me - just trying to learn...     Anyone have any pics of a double mike header?     Can anyone field these questions?   Thanks...   Jim...     I have a guess on the 4-8-2 rear support wheels;    > Small front pilots - 30in to 32in (pre 1905) ? < Eight Drivers       - 70in to 80in (depending on model)  > Firebox support   - 42in to 44in (eyeballed) ? < « Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2004, 2:52pm by hummel1237 » Logged GP72ACe   Posts: 827 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #13 on: Apr 4th, 2004, 1:55am » In the "Fabulous 4-8-4" thread you said the K-4 Pacific and the L-1 Mikado had the same boiler. Does this mean they had the same power as well?  (I guess where I'm going with this is here; eight drivers + same boiler = same power - true or false?)   All depends on what you define as "power".  A Mike would have far higher tractive effort than a Pacific would, to be sure, but the Pacific would have a faster top speed.  Boiler horsepower might be close, but the boiler/firebox/smokebox specs would have to be almost identical, as well as using the same type of fuel—but of course boiler horsepower does not translate into wheel horsepower, and all steam locos had different temperaments to each other, even ones within the same class...   I know a 4-8-4 must have more power than an 0-8-0 but what factors are at play here?   The most obvious ones are the size of the boiler, firebox and smokebox, and after that it's driver diameter, which drivers you have your main crank pin located on, efficiency of superheaters, feedwater heater, ejector pipe, etc.  Also, with no front guiding truck, you can't move an 0-8-0 at high rates of speed through curves.  Also adding to the 4-8-4's power would be the presence of a booster engine on one of the axles of the trailing truck, which would give the engine five driving axles when starting a big train (you can't have a booster engine on an 0-8-0 unless you put it on one of the tender axles, but that would involve some rather long and flexible steam pipes that would be more vulnerable to breakage than shorter ones under the firebox)...   You also have the factor of weight, which increases adhesive weight and subsequently increases starting tractive effort.  All you have to do is compare a Consolidation with a Northern in terms of what work either can achieve...or sometimes merely looking at a Northern next to a Consolidation would bottom-line it for you     Lackawanna was known to put two mikes together to pull heavy loads so you'd have 8 pony trucks and 16 drivers, same amount of wheels as a Big Boy. Since you didn't have to use second hand steam would two mikes have more power than a Big Boy?   UP also doubleheaded locomotives.  Don't forget that doubleheading steamers meant having a crew in each locomotive, which of course was not pleasing to the bean-counters, not to mention more engines to feed fuel and water into plus longer time with the hostlers and mechanics at the roundhouse.  The more locos you doublehead, though, the fewer you have available to pull other trains.  With doubleheading, you may achieve your desired wheel horsepower to get your train over the road, but that comes at higher expense than a bigger engine.  (There's also the superheaters, booster engine factor and adhesive weight at play here...but realistically, two Mikados, unless they were modernized, would never match the performance of a Big Boy.) « Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2004, 1:59am by GP72ACe » Logged hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #14 on: Apr 4th, 2004, 3:42am » Thanks IC! That explains why a two Mike double header would have two Mikes at the rear as well - the need for power. The Big Boy had the more modern upgrades than steamers built pre 1925. Thanks for your time...   Two Mikes come somewhat close to a Challenger however;                              2 Mikes                   4-6-6-4    Tractive effort -      87,000                      97,000    round numbers                                   Adhesive wght -    354,000                    406,000    "              "               Not too bad...                               Jim...   « Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2004, 8:20am by hummel1237 » Logged hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #15 on: Apr 4th, 2004, 4:35am »                                                              2-8-0          2-8-2          2-8-4          4-8-2     Tractive effort:       36,600        43,462       44,050         52,500   Axle load               36,500        44,800        41,000         59,500   Cylinders               20x28in      21x26in      25x28in        24inx30in                                   Drivers                  52in            74in            76in              73in                                     Heat surface         1,717ft        2,714ft       3,002ft          3,584                             Superheater          341ft          777ft          774ft              1,570                                         Steam psi              200             220            213                260   Grate area            28ft             50ft            51ft                70ft   Adhesive wght      146,000      177,000      161,000        237,000   Total weight          250,000      370,000      406,000        638,000   Length                   61ft             74ft             75ft              93ft      Jim     A 2-8-4 cannot compete with a 4-8-2, a 2-8-4 "is" more like a Mikado...   Thanks again IC... « Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2004, 7:56am by hummel1237 » Logged Pennsy Historian   Posts: 4479 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #16 on: Apr 4th, 2004, 11:27am » Hi All,   Looks like we have some really great explanations here, thanks to Alan, our Irish colleague. I couldn't have said it better. But, the essential truth here is that the actual size of the engine does give you an idea of its horsepower. The same is true of today's diesels. Put a modern EMD 6000 hp diesel alongside a Geep 9, (sorry geep nine) and you will see a tremendous size difference. Similarly, the PRR L-1s Mike, alongside the SP's #4449 GS-4, the size difference is obvious. How many of you knew that #4449 has a Franklin Booster on its trailing axles ? That places even more horsepower at the Engineman's control. PRR never went for boosters. It also never went for Mallets, articulateds. They had sufficient engines to routinely double head. And this was in the days before engine to engine radios. You heard some funny whistles in those days, especially if you were at the tail end of the train, pushing away. It must have been something else to see and hear Class J-1s Texas engines, 2-10-4, two at the head and two at the tail, hauling a long, long, freight up Horseshoe Curve. Logged hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #17 on: Apr 4th, 2004, 1:59pm » on Apr 4th, 2004, 11:27am, Pennsy wrote:       (Click here for original message) How many of you knew that #4449 has a Franklin Booster on its trailing axles ? That places even more horsepower at the Engineman's control.   I know now and thanks...   Jim...   Logged GP72ACe   Posts: 827 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #18 on: Apr 4th, 2004, 2:11pm » A 2-8-4 cannot compete with a 4-8-2   Hold on a second...how does any Mountain have a larger grate area than a Berkshire?  Those figures look a little out of kilter.  Unless you're comparing a more modern Mountain-type with the first Berkshire.  Later 2-8-4s had larger boilers, greater diameter drivers and huge fireboxes.  The 2-10-4 was the natural progression from the Berkshire, which basically combined the Berkshire with the 2-10-2 Santa Fe type... Logged hummel1237 Historian Posts: 4854 Re: Crazy Eights   « Reply #19 on: Apr 4th, 2004, 2:21pm » on Apr 4th, 2004, 2:11pm, IrishChieftain wrote:       (Click here for original message)  ("I might be") comparing a more modern Mountain-type with the first Berkshire.   I'll have to look again. Books are sometimes off or I missed the modern comparison that you pointed out. You challenge me - I like that...   Jim...   « Last Edit: Apr 4th, 2004, 2:22pm by hummel1237 » Logged Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8  ...  14 (last) Reply     EMail Topic   Print Forum Jump: ----------------------------- The Mainline -----------------------------  - The Concourse   - The Waiting Room   - The Information Desk   - Forum Suggestions   - Railroad Photography   - Railfan Trips   - Preservation   - Railroading   - Rail Safety   - Railroad Media   - Railroad Art   - Railroad Radio   - Train Simulators   - Young Rail Enthusiasts   - Test Forum ----------------------------- North American Railroads -----------------------------  - BNSF Discussion   - CN Discussion   - CP Discussion   - CSX Discussion   - KCS Discussion   - NS Discussion   - UP Discussion   - Conrail Shared Assets ----------------------------- Regionals and Short Lines -----------------------------  - Short Lines   - GVT Short Lines   - Indiana & Ohio   - NYS&W   - Ohio Central System   - Rahway Valley   - Reading, Blue Mountain & Northern   - Wheeling & Lake Erie   - WNY&P, LA&L & B&H ----------------------------- Tourist Railroads and Museums -----------------------------  - Tourist Railroads and Museums   - Black River & Western   - East Broad Top   - Cass Scenic Railroad   - New Hope & Ivyland   - The Railway Mail Service Library   - Steamtown   - Strasburg Railroad   - Wanamaker, Kempton & Southern   - Western Maryland Scenic   - Wilmington & Western ----------------------------- Regional Area Operations -----------------------------  - British Columbia   - California   - Chicagoland   - Eastern Canada   - Indiana Railroading   - Kentucky   - Michigan   - Mid-Atlantic States   - New Jersey   - Central New York   - Eastern NY and New England   - Western NY Class 1's   - Western NY Shortlines   - North and South Carolina   - Ohio Railroads   - Eastern Pennsylvania   - Western Pennsylvania   - Vancouver Island   - West Virginia ----------------------------- Fallen Flags -----------------------------  - General Fallen Flags Discussion   - Fallen Shortlines   - Akron, Canton & Youngstown   - The Santa Fe   - Baltimore & Ohio   - BC Rail   - Jersey Central Lines   - Chessie System   - Chicago & North Western   - Conrail   - Delaware & Hudson   - The DT&I   - Erie Lackawanna   - The Family Lines   - The Lackawanna   - Lehigh & Hudson River   - Lehigh & New England   - Lehigh Valley   - The Milwaukee Road   - Nickel Plate Road   - New Haven   - New York Central   - The O&W   - Norfolk & Western   - Penn Central   - The Pennsylvania RR   - P&LE   - The Reading Co.   - The Southern Railway   - Southern Pacific   - Salzberg Roads   - The Virginian   - The Wabash   - Western Maryland ----------------------------- Varnish -----------------------------  - Passenger Trains   - Amtrak Discussion   - VIA Rail   - The Dining Car ----------------------------- Transit and Commuter -----------------------------  - General Subway, Transit and Commuter   - New Jersey Transit   - NYC Tri-State Commuter Railroads   - SEPTA   - Traction   - TRE and DART ----------------------------- Locomotives and Rolling Stock -----------------------------  - Diesel Locomotives => Steam Locomotives   - Electric Locomotives   - Budd RDC and SPV   - ALCO   - Minority Loco Builders   - Lease Units   - Rolling Stock ----------------------------- Physical Plant - Track, Structures and Signals -----------------------------  - Railroad Infrastructure   - Signals   - Stations ----------------------------- Model Railroading -----------------------------  - General Modeling Discussion   - O Scale/O Gauge   - HO Scale   - N Scale   - Garden Railways   - Live Steam and Ride on Scales   - Scratchbuilding and Kitbashing   - Private Roadname Modelers ----------------------------- Special Interests -----------------------------  - Railroad Marine Operations   - New York Central Marine   - Postcards   - Railroadiana   - Railroad Stories « Previous topic | Next topic »