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Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Dec 14th, 2015, 10:46am
* Some information found in books covering this first 1834 terminal, or the following second 1857 terminal were never appreciated for what they had accomplished. Always comparing the first terminal to the large big city stations built 20 to 30 years later on. At the time of opening of the first terminal, Jersey City had a population of 1,500 people. Information printed in the Book " From the "Hills to the Hudson" on page 179 has two of the three-period drawings to be found of this first terminal. Together on the same page. The top Drawing, the 1834 view, is incomplete and basic. It is noted on this page that this station, is as it appears at the opening of rail service in 1834. This is very early for any kind of railroad depot in the State of New Jersey. At the time of its opening, the drawing shows a 3 track train shed, which for 1834 is large. This terminal when opened had no headhouse but was continually added to, till it appears as shown in the second 1848 view below the first. A headhouse is there at this time, along with a Romanesque styled facade applied to the east, north and south sides of the head house. This 1848 drawing shows this complete terminal in a view from the northeast.
* This first terminal was built by the New Jersey Rail Road and Transportation Co. as their Jersey City Depot. The first in New Jersey on the Hudson River. Located on Hudson Street between Montgomery and Mercer Streets and between Green and Hudson streets. The second terminal was between Hudson Street and the river. across the street from the first. When the second terminal was opened the first was refurbished The third terminal built in this location was built by the Pennsylvania Railroad, in the same place. The structures and tracks that made up this third terminal spread out in length closing both Green and Hudson streets. It lasted over 10 years. It was destroyed by fire. A third view of the first terminal head house, this one from the riverside, is shown on an 1848 map of Jersey City. It shows 3/4 of the front. A squared off the front with 7 of its 9 tall columns. Looking like an Ancient Roman or Greek Temple building.
* The artist. N. Sarony of the 1849 sketch shows all three track entrances as having stone arches. This would mean a stone block or a brick building. The head-house shows one single bell tower located centered on the gabled roof on the east end of the building. Railroads back then would signal arrivals and departures with a bell. The long side walls show many door or window openings, also arched. I have not found any measurements for this the first terminal building.
* Because of the time needed to build the cut on the western side of Bergen Hill through the Palisades rock formation, from the junction with the Patterson and Hudson River Railroad, at what would become Marion Junction, temporary track was laid and horse-drawn trains were used for the trip to this Riverfront terminal at Hudson street. This temporary horse-drawn service remained until the first scheduled train up through the completed cut was made on Jan 22 1838. This was the start of train service from New Brunswick to New York City. This is opening date for steam-powered service of the New Jersey Rail Road throughout its line. By the time train service was opened to New Brunswick the road was all steam powered. Once the C&A completed its track to New Brunswick NJ, trough train service was available from Philadelphia to New York.
Jersey City railroad car depot 1834, train shed only. The headhouse as seen here opened around 1843. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Jan 4th, 2016, 12:56pm
Note: About the 3 different views of the first terminal. They are found in two books. From the Hills to the Hudson, and Indian Trails to iron Horse. The 1848 view being in each book. The third and best view is on an 1848 Jersey City map. *** How sad that these three are the only early useful views of this first terminal. In From the hills to the Hudson, the 1834 view is of an incomplete terminal with only a train shed. The 1834 view shows a west wall and a south wall. The roof isn't drawn. The south wall is a long rectangle. the West wall shows a gabled roofline, with 3 train entrance doors. This train shed still was of a good size being over 200' long. The with was about 60'. It enclosed 3 tracks and I would guess 4 platforms. The west 3 entrances were surrounded by stone arches. As I said the building most likely was of brick or stone. Large arches lined the south wall. No detailed view of the north wall is accessible to me if it exists. There is a sharp angled view from the west (the 1848 view) that shows just enough of the north side to make you imagine things about its architecture.
* A view below is of the 1st terminal, once completed, from the riverside. It is from an 1848 map of Jersey City. The only good view from the Riverside, the east. Another exits but it is a really bad inaccurate view by Barber and howel.
* Hudson street went left to right between the ferry terminal and the NJRR&TCo. terminal.
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Jan 31st, 2016, 8:24pm
* Going along with the first reply and the partial drawing of the front of the head house of the 1st Terminal in Jersey City New Jersey. The map here shows a terminal with 9 columns across the front of the terminal. Four additional columns go up each side. 17 Columns are represented by 17 dots on the map. The columns support the temple like facade outside all three walls of the Head House. The terminal outline is shown in both the 1844 map on page 178 in" the Hills to the Hudson" and this 1848 map of Jersey City. This outline is the same on both maps. So the columned head house was there in 1844. I have seen a much poorer drawing of the waterfront seen before 1845 and it also showed the columned facade of the terminal which changes nothing * There seem to be only 2 mentions of this terminal with only one saying anything about it. The one says it was only a train shed with no head house with no real Architectural decorations. And didn't say any nice things. This is correct for when the terminal was first used in 1834, for only the train shed was completed then. Even then the NJRR did say that there terminal was not completed and being constantly updated. When in 1838 when the cut was completed and steam roamed from this Hudson River Terminal to New Brunswick no mention of this terminal is made anywhere. Well what is shown here says that at least by 1844 the terminal was completed and it had a decorative head house. The P&HRR terminal was not opened till 1848. This railroad used the NJRR terminal before then. There terminal in Patterson was no more than a shed. I have a photo of it. *I have no idea of why, when this terminal was completed that there was no recorded record of a celebration on that day. There are noted celebrations recorded for the opening of service to Newark, to Elizabeth, to Rahway, Metuchen, even a big one for Hyland Park, then called East New Brunswick, and a gigantic one for the opening of the bridge across the Raritan river and service to New Brunswick. They partied all day for that one. I have read all I can find on the NJRR&T Co. I found nothing about when it was complete. I can only tell by the dated artistic evidence available to me. * Here is the map. More to come, of this I am sure. I like to talk ! Frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Feb 1st, 2016, 9:28am
This is the 1845 view from Battery Park. As I said it is of much poorer quality. Not a art work but a sketch. You should see 9 columns and the bell tower. This sketcher is from a Barber and Howe print. These are the incorrect features. Only shows 7 columns, of various widths. ( should be 9 facing east ). A very poor representation of the NJRR&TCo. depot that has no info at all. * The most notable thing seen in this drawing is the good representation of the first ferry boat named "Jersey City". I have read questions asking about a first ferry boat with this name.
Posted by: Henry
Posted on: Feb 3rd, 2016, 10:39am
I am learning from it, but I don't have anything to add, sorry.
Posted by: Lemps Fancy Locomotive
Posted on: Feb 3rd, 2016, 11:55am
You're the one "teaching" us, so like Henry said, what is there to say?
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Feb 4th, 2016, 7:40am
I'm no teacher ! Just a old guy lost in old information. Wondering why there isn't more. I love to see a good rendition in sketch or paint of that first terminal. I like to find the measurements of the building. I know if I can find the size of the of the foundations from the tax map block that it is on. I can convert what I see in the tax lot map to actual measurements, angles and all. That would give us a footprint of the building. No height measurements are found anywhere as on now. I am looking forward to getting back to the Jersey City Library and going through the info that John Beekman provides there. Spoke with him last week. he said the Library has the Book " Indian trails to iron Horses". I am hoping it is a original copy from Princeton University. They printed the entire theses with all conclusions, and comprehensive bibliography's by the Author. You get to read everything. All the info he found. The Author of the Theses is Leslie E, Freeman Jr. The Author of the book "Indian Trails to Iron horses" is in named " Weaton J. Lane ". frank
Here I have a place for my altered copy of the 1834 view of the 1st terminal. This is the earliest view of the terminal when all that was completed was a train shed . I added a roof for their was none. As to the length of the building the original drawing suggests a building, in a fog going on much longer, with many more arched openings. The original drawing of the terminal in 1848 shows 8 opening for arched doors or windows on the north side. Because of the angle of the building making the south wall longer, I add 2 more openings. Not exactly architectural evidence but the best I can do.
* About what was aviable in this structure call just a train shed by a few book uppity authors.
** This is the Victorian Age ! To think, not even for one moment, that the accommodations offered to the travailing public on this railroad, in this depot, were not complete, is a impossibility. That so called train shed had to offer ticket services, separate, men and women's waiting rooms, and restroom facilities. All aviable to the traveling public in that structure, or VERY close by.
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Feb 4th, 2016, 9:13am
I mentioned the sharp angled view from the north-west that shows a little of the detail on that north wall. This is it. Look at the front 5 column side here. The depot Hudson street structure is also a gable roof slightly higher than the train shed gable. The outside façade highest detail is what gives the appearance of the flat roof there. It is built to that height just to block any view of the gable roof of the front depot structure. I hope the roughness of the sketch of the detail is what was actually there. If the 1839 date for the complete opening of the railroad means that this terminal was also as you see it here, I would say that speed in completion would have caused this messy look, but this drawing was made in 1848. My view of the building from the south side because of the arrangement of the three structures could have been made to blended better together. On the north wall extending the columns further and wrapping them around to the train shed wall would have looked much better. * A second view showing the north wall at a angle from the northwest would expel or confirm this opinions on the structure. * In this sketch I have added some detail. The columns on the north side originally ended at the terminal head house west wall. The decorative temple like façade abruptly ended here. A unfinished appearance of the façade support beams tying into the head house roof looked bad. In my sketches I finished the west wall. I continued the look of the Façade along the west wall wherever possible. In both of my sketches I hide the way the façade ties into the head house. * I still want to do a sketch of the Hudson Street entrance with its 9 column front façade. Because of the angle views of the other 2 sketches it , the front sketch, when added would cover the whole building. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Feb 5th, 2016, 5:01pm
** Something to think about ! * I wonder if the outside façade of the head-house is an afterthought. Maybe the original station head-house added to the train-shed was just to plain and the columned exterior façade added later to hide the plainness of the terminal. Original drawing of terminal in 1848. frank
edit 12-7-17 This view shows a bell tower with a Norman style battlement roofline, The front view on the 1848 maps shows a different more decorative bell tower roofline.
** Something to think about ! * I wonder if the outside façade of the head-house is a afterthought. Maybe the original station head-house added to the train-shed was just to plain and the columned exterior façade added later to hide the plainness of the terminal.
I think that was the case, but it is probably not likely that there is any concrete evidence left of it.
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Feb 5th, 2016, 9:28pm
** Henry, I wish it wasn't.
*** Here I have found a place to put my first sketch of the Hudson street view of the 1st terminal's passenger entrance. It was quite a place. As seen by patrons departing the ferry terminal before crossing Hudson street to board their train.
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Feb 21st, 2016, 8:44pm
* Now About the Book "Indian Trails to Iron Horses". If I were to publish a opinion of this in relation to what I am trying to discover from historic references it would be one of a negative nature. In looking for real nuts and bolts information on the Jersey City terminal. I can say that of all the info I have now after reading this book, nothing has been added to my info.
* There are three useful views I have located and none other. The first view I seen was the one on the upper portion of the page 179 in "From the Hills to the Hudson" . A Historic information book on the Patterson Hudson River Railroad. The only reason it was found there, is that the P&HRRR used this terminal along with the N.J.R.R.&T.Co. once the temporary track was laid to allow for passenger cars access to this train shed terminal on Hudson Street and the ferry. The 1834 drawing as I see it, is a poor incomplete drawing of the train shed. As seen on a cloudy fogy day. What makes it useful is there is no other. It is stated in the third paragraph page 179, that the NJRR terminal opened in 1843. I Take that to mean that it was complete with Train shed and a head house, or a place set aside to get tickets and information. The head house was, I think built later on.
* The second view I found is on the same page directly under the first. The first view is from the south-west. This second view is from the north-west. The date of this view is 1848. 14 years after the first view. Of the third view, only partial one, viewed from riverside (north-east) showing any detail, is from a 1848 map of Jersey City. These are all the views of this terminal that show anything of this first terminal in Jersey City. In compass heading only the south-east is missing. In quality so very much!
* I mentioned nut and bolts information looked for. Measurements of the footprint of the terminal, entire structure. Height of the terminal all locations. Architectural measurements . complete plains of the building. These are the things I dont know. I also never found any reference to dates when things happened on this terminal.
* (Edit addition 5-4-16) * Now taking the information on the block size out of paragraph 2, page 179, the block is 400 feet by 200 feet. This is the block purchased by the P&HRR. Taking visual note of the fact that the lot layout on this block, and the next block south where the NJRR&TCo. 1st terminal is the same and the block size the same. We now have a measurement to start with. Take the 200' length on the block along Hudson street. Note the there are 8 evenly spaced lots making up this 200 foot distance with each being a common 25 feet wide. Now the East West distance of 400 feet needs to be mathematically dissected. Not a very hard thing to do. Each block is made up of 32 lots. Each lot is 25 feet wide and 100 feet deep. It works out perfectly. I now can work out the footprint of the train shed and head-house of this first railroad terminal of the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company. Yes with the information aviable no height measurements are aviable. Trust in the artist's rendition of the building and some more math will give us a average idea of the height of this train shed and its head-house. * Are there any draftsmen, mathematicians, or 3D person out there reading this who would like to contribute here and come up with a block drawing with building footprint measurements applied to the drawing. Then using the 1848 sketch showing the west end of the train shed with its three doors, come up with the height of the side walls and peak of the train shed. frank I removed the photo of the pages from the book Hills to the Hudson as it may be copy righted. Had to replace it with something else to remove it.
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Mar 18th, 2016, 3:37pm
** Any other information that turns up on this 1st railroad Terminal along the west bank of the Hudson River in Jersey City will be added to this post. I am leaving this as a future site for any new info. I will when the main Jersey City library reopens, to visit again, and look for additional information on this Terminal. I have not yet searched the old newspapers of the time. The Jersey City Gazette was published from 1834 to 1837. The Jersey City Advertiser, which may be a continuation of the Gazette is listed as being published from 1835 to 1846. I am hoping to find some things on the NJRR&TCo. there. I do think that the Jersey City library has these publications. frank
** Here is the enlarged drawing of the first terminal on the Hudson River's west bank in Jersey City, as seen on the City's street map of 1848 in the lower right-hand corner. The terminal is seen from the Hudson River. This is a view from the river, showing some of the detail of this terminal. If only another view, with better details, were available. This terminal with its Greek or Roman colonnaded facade must have been very nice to have been actually seen. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Mar 18th, 2016, 3:55pm
*** Now for the Second terminal of the NJRR&T Co. This terminal was designed for the NJRR by one JOB Male. It was started in 1853 and complete in 1857. I found a quality drawing of the west face and south wall of this new terminal in a 1857 stock holders report. * This is the second terminal built in the same location as the first. The first post will show the title page of the 1857 report. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Mar 18th, 2016, 3:57pm
Here is the view of the 2nd terminal as presented to the Stockholders in 1857. Here you see the terminal with its two story front, with five track entrances to the main central part of the east face of the building. The terminal view seen is facing west on Hudson street's east side. A north and a south tower give a look of a much larger building. The towers are extensions that seem to be built out from the main building. The towers add to the width of the terminal. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Mar 18th, 2016, 4:11pm
This next attachment will be of page 8 of the 1857 report which covers this new terminal. The next attachment is of page 9 because the terminal information extends on to this page. Other information there is on improvements to the Main Line. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Mar 18th, 2016, 4:13pm
This post is for the attachment of page 9 the continuation of the information on the 1857 terminal. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Mar 18th, 2016, 4:50pm
A continuation of the 1857 report page 10. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Mar 24th, 2016, 2:34pm
Here is the second railroad terminal in Jersey City as seen from the east on Hudson Street. Not exact but close. This is reply 18. You need to go back to view drawing. This view is of a poor quality but the only view of this terminal I have found. This is odd because of the growing use of cameras at this time. This is a view after 1857. This 2nd terminal was here into and through the civil war. Didn't anyone draw or photograph this terminal? You should also know the through the entire civil war and after a refurbished 1st terminal still existed across Hudson street. I do know that glass plate photography was done during the civil war. Also over 10 million people passed through this terminal. So where are the views of these first two terminals? frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Apr 1st, 2016, 10:22am
* Well what is missing from this 2nd terminal is a view of the east side of this terminal. As a matter of fact, there is no detailed view of this east end of the second railroad terminal that I have found anywhere. Only river views showing the old ferry terminal blocking any view of the east end of this second terminal. I would think that this east wall would be very similar in architecture to the central part of the west wall without the track entrances or the towers. * How can a major terminal opened in 1857, used till the NJRR merges with the Camden and Amboy in 1867, then they merge with the PRR. The PRR replaces this terminal in 1873, but allowed the South Tower to remain standing. So from 1857 to 1873 no photographs or drawings were made of this terminal. At least 10 million people came through this terminal during that time period. It is just Impossible ! Where are the views. * Well, we will see what I find at the Jersey City Library when I get here again. From what I know it has not reopened yet. Edit 3-9-18, It is still not open today. All services for historical information are through a request made at the 5 corners branch. frank
...So from 1857 to 1873 no photographs were taken of this terminal. At least a few million people can through this terminal during that time period. Impossible ! ...
Frank - Lodge Members -
Your humble writer must non-concur with conclusion here? To remind the Photography of the day rather awkward and basic, and used the glass plate images. Now, we know that Matthew Brady did record myriad views of progress of the War Between The States. We may guess he had generous stipends from the 'Feds' to perform the work. Otherwise, camera equipment not readily available. Someone had to pay for images, and it was not cheap.
More. Any idea of dates when News Papers could print available Photos using the 'half tone' processes? Until widely available, the venerable practices of laborious etchings, so to document a scene.
So that? In the time window noted, very little use of camera equipment. All the best in your quest for images of the particular era. This appears to be a tough challenge? Recall, the very impressive Ansel Adams works did not appear until 1927... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansel_Adams
Many Thanks for your overview of processes on how endless images could be prepared for printing in newspapers, dailies, and popular journals. Of course, in your writer's earlier remarks here, more a focus on how newspapers done.
This useful entry on 'Wiki' which reports history and progress of the 'half tone process'. The dates are more into the 1870s - 1880s eras. Agree, yes, there were options to get images into print. Took much time and labor, in any instance? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halftone
BTW. Hmmmm... It has been a learning process! Didn't know history of 'half tone'...
*** A GLIMMER OF HOPE *** Train Shed Cyclopedia # 38 Has info on 2 different depot terminals in Jersey City. Also a plan for a Passenger depot. All in the one issue. All are 40 to 60 years after the first terminal. Maybe you should post something on them. * Passenger Depot Page 409. * Terminal depot Page 412 to 421. * Terminal depot Page 431 to 436. They are most likely a local station, and a PRR or Eire terminal. But there is a hope. Anybody out there has train shed # 38. If you have it can you post here which depots they are and let us all know. frank * Vern after you preceding 2 posts. I have no idea why you wrote the two posts that have nothing to do with the thread. I am looking for help not a critic. I changed the title to 1st and 2nd JC terminals. The focus of this topic is and will remain mainly the 1st terminal. The 2nd is only important to me, because, just like the first, in an almost total lack of information on these terminals. In all that you have said I wish you would tell us out here when photography started, so I can compare that date to 1834 to 1854, the date replacement of the 1st terminal occurred. I can't understand how the second terminal has no photos of it at all. It was there to the end of the Civil war. Ten's of millions of people passed through these 2 terminals and there is nothing to show for it. The first I can almost understand. The second I can't. V-289
"Information included in this issue is as follows: Terminal Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ, New York, Lake Erie & Western Railroad Old Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ, Pennsylvania Railroad New Terminal Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ ..."
In the "List of illustrations" is:
"Terminal Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ, New York, Lake Erie & Western Railroad, Perspective, Ground-plan, Cross-section New Terminal Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ, Pennsylvania Railroad Section and End Elevation of Train-shed Longitudinal Section of Train-shed Cross-section of Wind Bracing at End of Train-shed Section of Pair of Trusses, showing Purlins Section of Pair of Trusses near Foot of Arch Details of Movable End of Arch Details of Fixed End of Arch Plan of Foundations General Ground-plan of Terminal Perspective of Traveler used in Erection of Train-shed, Side View Perspective of Traveller used in Erection of Train-shed ..."
I don't think it is what you are looking for.
It is available for $9.99 plus $6.15 shipping at the above URL.
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: May 4th, 2016, 11:18am
Thanks again Henry !
* You just gave me a lot of information that has nothing to do with this thread. Good work!
* In reply 11, Feb 21 2016 I added a important edit and a copy of 2 pages of info from Hills to the Hudson to clarify what was done. Here is a copy of just the edit.
* I mentioned nut and bolts information looked for. Measurements of the footprint of the terminal, entire structure. Height of the terminal all locations. Architectural measurements . complete plains of the building. These are the things I dont now. I also never found any reference to dates when things happened on this terminal.
* (Edit addition 5-4-16) * Now taking the information on the block size out of paragraph 2, page 179, the block is 400 feet by 200 feet. This is the block purchased by the P&HRR. Taking visual note of the fact that the lot layout on this block, and the next block south where the NJRR&TCo. 1st terminal is the same and the block size the same. We now have a measurement to start with. Take the 200' length on the block along Hudson street. Note the there are 8 evenly spaced lots making up this 200 foot distance with each being a common 25 feet wide. Now the East West distance of 400 feet needs to be mathematically dissected. Not a very hard thing to do. Each block is made up of 32 lots. Each lot is 25 feet wide and 100 feet deep. It works out perfectly. I now can work out the footprint of the train shed and head-house of this first railroad terminal of the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company. Yes with the information aviable no height measurements are aviable. Trust in the artist's rendition of the building and some more math will give us a average idea of the height of this train shed and its head-house. * Are there any draftsmen, mathematicians, or 3D person out there reading this who would like to contribute here and come up with a block drawing with building footprint measurements applied to the drawing. Then using the 1848 sketch showing the west end of the train shed with its three doors, come up with the height of the side walls and peak of the train shed. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: May 10th, 2016, 4:11pm
What has been going on. *In my search for information on the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company being disappointed is a regular occurrence. I seem to always be picking the wrong railway projects to get interested in. This railroad the NJRR&TCo. is the third to be granted a charter by the State of New Jersey, received theirs on March 7th 1832. The 1830 charter granted to the Camden and Amboy being the first, and the second going to the Patterson and Hudson River railroad on Jan.- 21- 1831. My reason for picking this railroad is because it was the first one to build a terminal on the Hudson River in New Jersey. * The first thing I found out about this railroads terminal was at the Jersey City Public Library in the book "From the Hills to the Hudson" by Walter A. Lucas, a book published in 1944. A map of a 1844 view of Powles Hook on p-178 and 2 smaller than postcard views of the terminal on Page 179. The top view being of the terminal from the south-west corner of Montgomery and Greens Streets. This is a 1834 view of the listed as completed terminal. The bottom view is a 848 view taken from the north-west corner of Greene and Mercer streets. The top being a poor and incomplete drawing. The bottom one drawn from a low angle, done quickly with the most basic of detail. At the Library on the wall was a 1848 map of Jersey City. In the lower right corner was a drawing of the Jersey City waterfront with tucked in its corner, a view of most of the east wall on Hudson Street. A third terminal view has been added. * In the next book I found out about was "From Indian Trails to Iron Horse" "Travel and transportation in New Jersey 1620-1860", by Wheaton J. Lane. Published in 1838. Now this book I was told would answer some of my questions. Being I was looking for info on the buildings of the New Jersey Railroad in Jersey City. Information here was on the problems building the railroad. What was here was the same as I found to be in the book "From the Hills to the Hudson". As to views or information on the terminal or engine facilities there was none. * The next book I hoped would provide me information was " Railroads in New Jersey"," The Formative Years", by John T. Cunningham. Published in 1997. The index listed 19 places where the info on the NJRR could be found. There is no list on illustrations. This big book with 328 pages has to have something for me! Well it almost didn't. Though I was underwhelmed, and there was nothing new, on page 61 in a yellow info box a statement is made, " The best material ever assembled on the NJRR&TC0. Appears in Volume 88 (1957), by " the Railway and locomotive Historical Society. Yep a bulletin of the R&LHS. After 3 expensive book gave me little I have now a chance to spend more on what? * Well I got the Bulletin #88.It has nothing new for me in it. Well with the 3 drawings and tax map info i have something. * Well folks. Let's not get excited but another book has been found. " Early American Railroads" by Franz Anton Ritter. Published in 1848. Right at the time of the first terminal. That is 125 years between publications. *Next is a few lines from the introduction of that book. This one a translated copy released in the 1990's. v-380
Posted by: ClydeDET
Posted on: May 12th, 2016, 7:24pm
Umm - the German author (and engineer) cited was NOT named "Ritter". His family name was von Gerstner. Ritter was a hereditary title and the proper usage would be Ritter von Gerstner, or in English "The Knight von Gerstner").
Sounds like a book I might ought to run a copy of down. In English, not German. MY German is NOT adequate for that sort of publication. Really was, at its best, adequate for a newspaper or a military frag order. And that was when I was using that language in the long ago.
Well I have been told that by the people at Rutgers University. The first time I called up that book in a search on line the name in the shorter version appeared. Every time I search it using the short version it comes up. ** Good luck to you for the book goes from $400 + dollars like new, to a used one of $85. The German one from 1840 is free online. Here in New Jersey at Rutgers university are 2 copies one each in 2 of their different Librarys. frank
The Rutgers people said "Ritter" was his surname? Hmm - I met at least two Germans while I was over there who were "Johann Ritter von something" They seemed to think the surname was "von Something". I just assumed they knew...
As to the price, be used or not obtained. $400+ is past my book budget. $85 requires a bit of thought, but could be handled.
My last post was in response to your info. The Rutgers people agreed with you. I was just saying to search on line all I used was the shorter version. frank
Ah, sorry I didn't understand.My German is pretty weak these days, from long disuse, over 40 years, but some still some sticks and I get the odd refresher from reading military history of the barbaric wars of the last century in Europe.
* Well Clyde, I guess that your Barbaric wars of the last century would be WW1 and WW2. The outright butchery of WW1 all because ONE man was killed. Then the German extermination of Millions of Jewish, Russians, other Europeans murdered by the wonderful toy making German people. Then I know what you are talking about. * Getting back to current events, my dilemma is that I wasn't alive since 1830, and not able to leave some info to myself on the 1st terminal in Jersey City. Don't know how you could build one and not leave info on it. Have you ever searched the Library of Congress? I have been very ineffectual in all my attempts. Maybe I should just write my Congressman and inform him of my Dilemma. He might be able to help me. frank
Yes, those. nd the Balkan Wars just prior to War One and Korea, and Vietnam (where I spent some time, dammit).
Actually, for all that people claim War One was caused by the murder of one man, it wasn't. That event can perhaps be claimed as the match that lit the fuze to the powder magazine, it was probably inevitable within 6-12 months, as the Austro-Hungarians needed and wanted and earnestly sought a war there, Serbia the min target for reasons that involved internal socio-political and military reasons. Damp fools, but there you are when you have a very ramshackle and unworkable Empire.
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Jun 19th, 2016, 7:00pm
I do wish that someone, somewhere would add something useful to this thread In reference to the title of this thread. It is not about early photography, stations built 40 years after the subject terminal, the German language, or what caused World War One. I don't need critics just help. A part of this depot opened in 1834, additions continued till it was the Greek Revival styled depot shown in the 1844 footprint and my drawings. It remained an operating Depot until the opening of the second depot in 1857. This first depot was renovated and remained as a useful addition to this terminal facility till an unspecified date, where who knows what happened. It may have still been there when the PRR leased this railroad. All the may haves, and unspecified things with drawings, and measurments are what I am trying to find out, and share here.
Information for the first terminal of the " The New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company", NJR&TCo.,
Main reference books; with abbreviations used in reference: "From the Hills to the Hudson" , By Walter Arndt Lucas. 1944.
"From Indian Trail to Iron Horse", Wheaton J. Lane, 1939. "Railroads in New Jersey", John T. Cunningham, 1997.
"The Railway and Locomotive Historical Society", Bulletin Number 88, May 1953 Article titled " The New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company", by Leslie E. Freeman.
Dates; March, 7 1832, Chartered for NJR&TCo. Issued. (B-88, P-109.)
November 1832. Contractors began to chip away at the ridge. The Bergen Hill Cut was begun. (RinNJ, P-60.)
Nov 30 1833, initial passengers leave Jersey City by stage coach over Bergen Hill to the tracks to Newark. (Railroads in NJ, p-52.)
October 20 1834 temporary track opens over Bergen Hill to Ferry, for both the NJR&TCo, and P&HRR. A terminal is opened. It is a 3 track enclosed train shed. A useful and substantial structure for its time. ( HtoH, P-133. )
1834, NJR&TCo. View from south-west of Terminal in Jersey City opened.( HtoH, P-179.) Drawing of terminal on same page. Info; Train shed only, no head house yet.
1844, Map of Jersey City, Powles Hook shows footprint of complete terminal train shed, with head house.( HtoH, P-178.)
1844, map footprint view of NJR&TCo terminal (P-17. 1848 drawing of Terminal with head house viewed from the north-west.( HtoH P-179.) This view is a wood cutting from Appleton Railroad and Steam Boat Companion of 1848. A large copy of the same North-West view of the terminal is in ( RinNJ, P-59.)
1850 mid century. No specific date is given. The Jersey City terminal, that a dark gloomy place was remolded. New skylights and windows were placed to improve lighting and ventilation. The south side of the original building was reconstructed to provide a enlarged freight shed. The terminal was now said to be as neat and convenient as any railroad depot in the East. (B-88, P-139.)
Late Fall 1853. Plains were immediately drawn up to extend the 1st terminals and ferry facilities. ( B-88, P-142.)
1857 the new second terminal opens. there are multiple referances to this, and the 1st terminal is referbished. They sit completely on opposit sides of Hudson street.
1862. A photo of the first through mail train of the NJR&TCo. New York to Philadelphia. (B-88 P-between 144 and 145.)
Jan 23 1838, A view of the Bergen Hill cut when completed with the first train through entering the Cut. Six railroads used this cut to get to the Hudson. The NJR&TCo., P&HR, NY&E (Erie), M&E, CRRofNJ, The Northern Railroad, and the Hackensack & New York. (RinNJ P-60.)
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Jul 13th, 2016, 9:29am
*Though after this the NJRR brought the born Englishman, then Brooklyn man, then Jersey man with the name, Job Male in as there man for designer and builder for the railroad, With their 1st Chief Construction Superintendent, the times really changed. He was a man of his time. He earned money the hard way. He worked and earned it. As an architect, he was the man in the right place at the right time. From 1845 to 1860 he designed and built almost everything along the Jersey City shoreline. The Cunard line terminal, all the ferry slips, The 1857 2nd terminal for the NJRR, The Two Towered Terminal. Refurbished the first terminal. All the freight facilities of the NJRR. Quite a man. A interesting time in Jersey City. He was known in Plainfield New Jersey as " Plainfield's Grand Old Man ".
I did some good research here only to get to a dead end. I do feel that I will build this first terminal. Just that there will be some freelancing in the design because their is no info on it other than the scale footprint of the building from a map, and the it kind of looks like this views, that are aviable. At least no one can say mine is wrong once done. For the head house I will go with the better detailed drawing on the 1848 map. For the train shed part and the rear of the head house a combination of the other three views will be done. Contradictory people wont have anything to support a not correct comment. I am still open to any new info that anyone has and would like to share. Until then, I must be right. frank,
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Dec 1st, 2016, 9:19am
I have redone my drawing of the first terminal in New Jersey on the Hudson River. The first was a drawing showing an angular view showing two of the walls. This can be seen in Reply 10. This one is a second different view,just an east wall view of the front of the terminal. This is what the terminal looked like around 1847. This type bell tower is shown in a drawing, on the Jersey City 1848 map. frank I have redone this east wall view again making it more detailed, and nicer. and discarded the old one. this is my new east wall view. * Even though now viewing my latest creation, I think this bell tower is too big. It doesn't matter I am not Vango or Pasco. Just a retired Bum that likes history. I am drawing this new view showing both styles of the bell tower recorded in old views.
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Jul 15th, 2017, 6:10pm
The first Railroad terminal in Jersey city. • • ***First about the last post’s drawing and the architecture of this station. • **Why I drew it the way I did. • * The footprint of the terminal on both the 1844 and 1848 maps appear to be the same in overall size. The 1844 map doesn’t show the column location as does the 1848 map. The north and south walls of the head house are not symmetrical in that the north wall ends behind the second column from the north. The south wall is shown only going 1/3 of the distance between the south 2nd and 3rd columns. No one builds a lopsided building. So my drawing does take advantage of the lack of information and use what can be seen. The pitch of the roof of the head house is less than that on the trainshed, and second story windows do show on the head house. A 9 column colonnade across the front of the building is shown, and 5 along the sides. There are 17 columns. These columns support a facade that offers a covered walkway on three sides of the headhouse. No one designs a structure like this placing the doors when viewed from the front behind columns. Because they are decorative, and not meant to be hidden. The front wall has 6 spaces between columns. The 2 double doors I have chosen fit nicely into the front view. • * Keeping with these guide lines, and the sparse information available on this 1st terminal, my drawing add a little something to that information. • frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Nov 7th, 2017, 1:29pm
* Again I have redone my last drawing, for in two of the original views there are two different types of bell towers. I am keeping the Greek Revival style building. The previous view is like the drawing in the 1848 map. *This view has the type bell tower as seen in various books like "From the Hills to the Hudson". It has a roman style battlement top edging. frank
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Dec 7th, 2017, 12:27pm
* Here I bounce back to the second terminal and what information I found in two books. first “The American Heritage History of RAILROADS IN AMERICA” By Oliver Jensen. second “The Railroad Station, An Architectural History” by Carroll L.V.Meeks.
** What are they comparing this second depot on the Hudson to? *In the book “The American Heritage History of RAILROADS IN AMERICA” By Oliver Jensen. This was said about the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company’s second terminal on the Hudson at Powel’s Hook in a newly named town, Jersey City! *In a chapter Ten of the book named “Turrets, Towers, and Rain Sheds” starting on page 204, actually page 206 for text, on the following page is the first full paragraph which is. “By the late 1850’s various styles of station architecture had been tried; the unsuccessful attempts were discarded and the successful ones studied and refined. One element, however, was absolutely essential to architects of the era- the tower, which, when grand enough, becomes a campanile. Whether Italian villa, or Norman, every station had to be adorned with at least two; even the tiny station in Jersey City, which was scarcely more than a train shed, had legitimacy conferred upon it in the form of a pair of small decorative towers. More significant structurally was the arch; a number of stations were built with a great arched train shed roof which covered the waiting rooms, and ticket offices as well as the trains, a sever and simple design. ( What is Mr jenson * This last part of the paragraph noting the Jersey City Station was informative, but it didn’t contain the name of the railroad which had built it. In the books reference index section the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company is not even mentioned. *So little is thought about this first railroad terminal that had build from the west, to the Hudson River, opening rail travel to New York City. Its accomplishments were noted then discarded when other railroads made similar things bigger and better, forgetting the circumstances that this small railroad faced. They built a railroad without any past railroad building experience to rely upon from anywhere. It wasn’t done here before. * Now for another book. ** “The Railroad Station, An Architectural History” by Carroll L.V.Meeks . * Being a fussy person I expect when a author writes a informational book covering material that has explicate dates involved with its authenticity, material in a dated section would match the titled dates.
• Page 48 chapter two “Provincial America’ “1830-1845”. (First paragraph; towards the end of the sixth line) The station at Stratford Connecticut fig 23 is the first mentioned in this chapter. It is a nice station that was built in 1867. Do you notice the conflict in the dates. This goes on it this book. He is writing a book about apples and comparing them to oranges. If you bother to title a chapter 1830-1845, that is what should be in it. Again in the next paragraph he writes; It was not until the building of the old Grand Central Station in 1869--. I don’t even want to talk about this one. I wish Carroll would have stuck with information within the chapter dates. He did back then have access to a lot of information and was in a position to share it. He didn’t do it!
*Now in Meeks book in the third chapter covering “The 1850’s”, in the section on American depots, Page 73, Meeks make mention of a small station in Jersey City, consisting of almost entirely a shed was nevertheless flanked by a pair of stubby towers. * What is he comparing this depot to? Why was he doing it? Now Jensen and Meeks both only referred to this New Jersey Railroad & Transportation Company station as, only a shed.
Posted by: toptrain
Posted on: Dec 7th, 2017, 12:28pm
***** If it is only a shed, it was quite a spectacular shed. ***** This is the second terminal, two-towered terminal of 1857
* The Jersey City depot was 500’ long, 103 feet wide, 43 feet high, excluding the cupola which runs the entire length and serves to admit light and ventilate the interior. This gives the building the additional height another 10 feet. The building, of Romanesque styling, is flanked by two towers at least 60’ high, reaching above the highest part of this depot. 5 tracks entered this building of brick and stone, with the last 180’ built on a pier out over water, so this section had to be lighter, and was made of wood in a matching style; the train shed section had an arched roof. The entire interior had no interior supports for this roof. It was a completely open space. Travelers using this depot would exit their coach and walk inside this terminal, to the ferry terminal, all under a protecting, enclosed roof and walls, and out of the weather. Even the roofs of the ferry slips reached out to cover the front part of the ferry, extending the protection to inside the ferry. One ferry slip was capable of enclosing the ferry completely and had a arched roof of its own. The lenght of this building was not a part of the 500' long second terminal. This was a ferry terminal. The New Jersey Railroad terminal connected to this ferry terminal with its concourse connected the other ferry slips. The building of this depot was started in 1853 and opened in late 1857. It was built on land recently fill in by the New Jersey Railroad & Transportation Company. * After telling you this I hope you understand why I commented on both books the way I did. * For 1857 this was truly a first class Railroad Terminal.
• Historians should put information first and be accurate in what they write. Toptrain1 frank