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Topic Summary
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Apr 17th, 2003, 1:58pm

In the Buffalo News today at http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20030417/1035437.asp
 
Note this only refers to the trainshed area of the terminal, the headhouse bit the dust long ago. I am fortunate to have had the opportunity to explore the abandoned ruins of the terminal area in the mid 70's as a teenager when I used to go on frequent day trip safaris by bicycle. It was quite a place in its day.
 
In the photo below the mirrored windows is where the headhouse was attached to the trainshed
 
Henry
 
 
Museum proposed for old DL&W terminal  
By SHARON LINSTEDT  
News Staff Reporter
4/17/2003  
 

 
DENNIS C. ENSER/Buffalo News
The Buffalo & Erie County Historical Society hopes to turn the old DL&W Terminal into a Harborfront Heritage Center.
 
The Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad station at the foot of Main Street in Buffalo is being eyed as the future home of a new $20 million Harborfront Heritage Center.  
The Buffalo & Erie County Historical Society is behind the proposal and is seeking $1 million in federal transportation dollars to conduct a feasibility study. William Seiner, the historical society's executive director, said the goal is to reuse the train station as a center to interpret the historic significance of the Erie Canal, as well as Buffalo's role as a key transportation link between east-west transportation routes.  
 
"The DL&W site is right in the heart of all those developments in our local history, so it feels like the right fit for what we want to accomplish," Seiner said.  
 
The project would highlight all of the transportation modes and methods located at the site, including passenger rail, commercial and passenger shipping, Buffalo's Erie Canal history and the industrialization of the city. It also would incorporate closely related topics such as immigration and U.S.-Canada relationships.  
 
Preliminary plans for the center call for acquisition of a grain elevator and a Great Lakes grain boat, as well as historic railroad cars and locomotives.  
 
The center also is viewed as a complement to proposed on-site glimpses of actual canal structures at the nearby Erie Canal Harbor site, which is moving into its final design stages.  
 
Rep. Jack Quinn, R-Hamburg, is supporting the historical society's $1 million request to advance the project. That request is now under review, along with a slate of other local transportation-related projects, in the House Transportation Committee.  
 
Seiner said he first envisioned reusing the circa 1916 train station as a Harborfront Heritage Center last year after visiting an industrial museum in Manchester, England, that was located in a former train station.  
 
"Being in that building set off a lot of parallels in my mind," Seiner said. "The space inside the DL&W is just so terrific. Not only does it offer wonderful exhibit space, you can imagine having a terrace restaurant overlooking the river, and there's space outside for activities."  
 
While the proposed heritage center is expected to hold interest for area residents, it also would be positioned as a cultural tourism destination, and as part of a statewide effort to create a series of interpretive venues to tell the story of the Erie Canal.  
 
William P. Condo, coordinator of the Western Erie Canal Heritage Corridor Planning Commission, said his group has had discussions with Seiner about the DL&W terminal proposal. Condo said it fits with his group's effort to establish seven canal interpretive centers across the state.  
 
"We're very aware of the project and support the concept," Condo said. "In fact, if it all gels, it should be a great center in a great building."  
 
Condo noted that while the canal heritage group is pushing for the interpretive center, the panel is leaving it up to the various localities to decide on specific sites. He said if the DL&W site does not work out, there are several other Buffalo locations that would fit the bill.  
 
One of the key hurdles standing in the way of the heritage center is that the historical society has no claim on the terminal building. The Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority owns the DL&W site and uses the first floor as its Metro Rail storage and maintenance shop.  
 
NFTA representatives said that they are aware of the historical society's interest in the building but that no talks have taken place.  
 
The terminal currently is on the radar screen of Bos Group, the designated developer of the Erie Canal Harbor Entertainment District.  
 
The DL&W is part of the group's master plan for the neighborhood, which also includes the mothballed Memorial Auditorium, the vacant Webster Block and the Donovan State Office Building. That master plan is expected to be unveiled in early May.  
 
 
e-mail: slinstedt@buffnews.com
 
 
 
Posted by: arnstg Posted on: Apr 3rd, 2004, 11:00pm
 Although there goal is fine, I wish they would direct the funds for use on Central Terminal which needs them badly.
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 7th, 2005, 10:34pm
Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 15:47:33 -0400
From: Jim Dent
Subject: News for former DL&W passenger terminal in Buffalo! (rshsdepot)
 
From the EL List...
 
NOTE: This message had contained at least one image attachment.
To view or download the image(s), click on or cut and paste the
following URL into your web browser:
 
 
http://lists.elhts.org/listthumb.cgi?erielack-09-07-05
 
image003.jpg (image/jpeg, 250x113 28685 bytes, BF: 0.98 ppb)
 
Listers:
 
Today's (9/7), Buffalo News has a story about the interest from Seneca
Gaming Corp. into converting the former DL&W passenger terminal into a
casino in downtown Buffalo.  Apparently it is on a short list of three sites
under consideration in Buffalo.
 
I've included the story and also the link to the Buffalo News site in case
the story gets 'stripped' by the list server due to a photo being included
with it.
 
Regards,
 
Chris Thurner
 
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050907/1069028.asp
 
DL&W is casino front-runner
 
  _____  
 
Old riverfront terminal reportedly tops Senecas' list of 3 downtown sites
 
By SHARON LINSTEDT  
News Staff Reporter
9/7/2005  
 
The former Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad terminal, on the
waterfront behind HSBC Arena, has been mostly idle since the early 1960s.
 
A downtown rail terminal and adjoining city-owned parking lot has emerged as
the leading site for the Seneca Nation of Indians' Buffalo casino.  
 
Sources with knowledge of the Senecas' undisclosed "short list" of three
potential city casino locations said Tuesday the former Delaware, Lackawanna
and Western Railroad terminal, located at the foot of Main Street directly
behind the HSBC Arena, is the leading candidate.  
 
Built in 1917 as part of the DL&W rail and ship terminal complex, the nearly
block-long, two-story structure is currently owned by the Niagara Frontier
Transportation Authority, which uses the ground floor to house and service
its Metro Rail cars.  
 
Neither Seneca nor NFTA representatives would comment on the rumored casino
site on Tuesday. However, a Seneca source confirmed a contingent from the
nation, which included officials of Seneca Gaming Corp. and the nation's
Economic Development Committee, were given an extensive tour of the building
in late August.  
 
Seneca Nation President Barry Snyder Sr. said Sept. 1 he hopes to announce
the Buffalo location by the end of the month. Snyder and Rajat Shah, a
Seneca Gaming executive, confirmed the nation is focusing on three downtown
sites for a 120,000-square-foot casino that would open by late 2007.  
 
The vacant upper floor of the rail building - an enclosed space that's
approximately the size of a football field and overlooks the Buffalo River -
has long been viewed as the perfect location for the right development
project. While it has sat largely idle since the early 1960s, it has been
proposed as the site for everything from a shopping mall to museum space to
an office complex, but none of the ventures progressed beyond the design
stage.  
 
The building's heavy-duty construction and open-floor plan are seen as
making it well suited as a gaming venue. The sturdy construction, which
includes foundation piers extending about 80 feet below the building, opens
the door to adding several upper floors to the existing structure.  
 
Another plus is its location - right in the heart of the emerging Erie Canal
Harbor Entertainment District. It would offer easy access to HSBC Arena, the
planned Bass Pro Shops store in Memorial Auditorium and an adjacent Great
Lakes-Erie Canal museum, as well as the downtown waterfront and Naval &
Servicemen's Park, which are both undergoing an ambitious reconstruction.  
 
The Senecas also are said to be eyeing the so-called Cobblestone parking
lot, situated less than 50 yards from the south end of the DL&W terminal,
bounded by South Park Avenue and Perry, Mississippi and Columbia streets.
The 900-vehicle lot would have enough space for large-scale parking decks
that could be directly connected to the gaming hall.  
 
The city-owned surface parking lot, which is used for Buffalo Sabres games
and other HSBC Arena events, has been discussed as a future development
site. In the late 1990s, the city promoted the idea of locating a $25
million amateur hockey complex on the site. At that time, planners already
had envisioned construction of ramps to replace surface slots for rink and
event parkers.  
 
The Cobblestone district and the adjoining "Ohio Basin" neighborhood also
have the potential to provide sites for the Senecas or private developers to
create nearby housing for casino workers.  
 
This is not the first Erie Canal Harbor/Cobblestone neighborhood site the
Senecas have sized up. The nation is said to have made inquiries to HSBC
Bank earlier this summer about its Atrium Building property on Washington
Street.  
 
e-mail: slinstedt at buffnews dot com
<http://www.buffalonews.com/email/email_form.asp?author_dept_id=240>  
 
 
Christopher Thurner
 
 
The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
Sponsored by the ELH&TS
http://www.elhts.org
 
 
 
 
=================================
The Railroad Station Historical Society maintains a database of existing
railroad structures at: http://www.rrshs.org
Posted by: NKP759fan Posted on: Sep 7th, 2005, 10:45pm
I really hope that this whole plan doesn't happen.
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 12:06am
       From what I've read from several sources, the old DL&W terminal BUILDING itself (built 1917) was demolished in the late 1970s, and only the Bush trainshed remains. From what I understand, the sheds are currently in use by the city's light rail/subway line.
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 12:11am
                                      ....one of the sources that state that the old Lackawanna terminal building itself was destroyed in the late ' 70s, leaving only the trainshed, was "RAILROADS IN EARLY POSTCARDS-VOLUME ONE: UPSTATE NEW YORK" by Richard Palmer and Harvey Roehl (1990)
Posted by: JBS Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 8:01am
The main concourse was indeed demolished in the early 80's. I have a great porcelain enamel sign off the exterior that I bought from the demo contractor. What remains is the Bush shed and train platform on the second level with the metro using the area underneath the upper train platform.  
It sounds like they want to demolish the train shed and add several stories. That would certainly destroy what little railroad history is left of the old girl.
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 10:08am
      JBS: Man, that old sign must be a crown jewel in your collection! It's bad enough the magnificent Buffalo terminal building was demolished instead of bieng preserved; now, the only remains of this grand Lackawanna structure are in danger of bieng lost forever. The United States simply does not get it. It's all about megabuck real estate deals, condos, casinos, and malls. Railroad history, or, rather, what's left of it, is truly disregarded with a blatant disrespect, especially since the old DL&W was a key element in the growth and development of Buffalo back in the 19th century. I heard that the waiting room and concourse were quite cavernous and elegant; maybe someone here has old pics or postcards in thier collection they can post here showing that grand interior. Let's hope for a miracle, fellow DL&W fans. The Eleventh Hour, for the SECOND time, is fast approaching for what remains of the old Buffalo terminal. "SAYS PHOEBE SNOW/WHO CANNOT GO/UPON HER TRIP TO BUFFALO/THINGS ARE NOT RIGHT/WE MUST NOW FIGHT/TO SAVE THE ROAD OF ANTHRACITE"
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 11:40am
The Library of Congress (LOC) has a decent collection of photos and data on the terminal at http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=hhphoto&fileName=ny/ny0100/ny0199/photos/browse.db
 
Back around 1977 or '78 as a teenager I rode my bicycle down there and explored the old terminal which was essentially in ruins at that time. Even in ruins, it was a beautiful building and worthy of preservation. Of course, our brilliant city fathers decided that the headhouse was a worthless eyesore and that the property was only useful as a maintenance and storage facility for the useless new money-pit of a light rail system nobody wanted to use and just about nobody still wants to use that idiotic "trolley" today. (That's a whole 'nother story) The headhouse was subsequently demolished after the 1979 survey of the site for the Historic American Engineering Record.
 
Here is a quote from that survey:  
 
"The Delaware Lackawanna, and Western (D.L.& W.) Railroad Terminal Complex was a regionally significant structure within the context of transportation.  The D.L.&W. was the oldest railroad station existing in Buffalo in 1979.  It was also the last of the five stations which operated in Buffalo in 1923 at the city's zenith as a major rail center.  Set on a prominent riverfront site, it retained its integrity of design."
 
Now doesn't that sound like something which should have been preserved? Obviously Buffalo's politicians leaned nothing from the tragic destruction of Penn Station in NYC in the middle 60's.  To further illustrate how stupid it was to raze to the headhouse, today the powers that be in the City of Buffalo seem to think that the region's architecture is somehow a tourist attraction. That might be true if some of the hundreds of architecturally siginificant structures destroyed in the past 40 years had been saved, but in my opinion the area politicians have always been in the pockets of the developers and contractors and sacrificing some history for a quick buck is still SOP for the Political Machine. If that sounds a little bitter, ramp up the anger factor by the order of magnitude of 10^22 or thereabouts.
 
I'm not one of the people who thinks that what is left is somehow historic. It has been bastardized into some sort of modern artsy-fartsy caricature of its true underpinnings. Nothing there looks like a station anymore.
 
I'm totally against the indians having sovereign territoty in Buffalo and the something-for-nothing mentality of casinos is no way to revitalize any self-respecting city. A casino sure as hell won't bring in a good kind of tourist to Buffalo.
 
I posted this as news, but it disgusts me from start to finish. I much prefer to remember the terminal as it was then than the awfulness of what is left now and the moronic things they want to do with it.
 

 
Henry
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 12:19pm
       Henry: I can well sympathize with your intense feelings about what the fates held for the old Lackawanna terminal building in Buffalo, and what may happen to its old trainsheds. The Lackawanna, of course, was noted for magnificent stations; the Hoboken terminal and Scranton station are proud examples of the Lackawanna's integrity and pride. At least, these two historic structures are still with us; and the Hoboken terminal still is in use as a NJT hub. But the Buffalo terminal certainly deserved better. Built in 1917, and reflecting a glorious era when the railroads were truly the backbone of America, this once-proud structure certainly could have been declared a National Landmark, and restored to its former glory. So, sad to say, that the death of Penn Station in the mid-60s was largely in vain. America STILL hasn't learned its lesson. Just what we DON'T need now....more condos, more casinos, more malls.......and, what will be the "landmarks" for young people of the future? A 15-year old Taco Bell? A mall that dates back to the 1980s? Frustrating, infuriating, and sad.........
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 1:01pm
I downloaded the hi-res TIFF images of the data pages, de-skewed them, enhanced them and OCRed them. The LOC's American Memory Finder is a great resource, but as usual the gubbmint has done a terrible job of implementation so it requires a great deal of effort in order to share the material.
 
Here is the text, please forgive the crappy formatting by the web browser:
 
Henry
 


     Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western RR.         HAER No. NY-63
     Lackawanna Terminal (Buffalo Boat Depot)
     South Park Ave.
     Buffalo
     Erie County
     New York
 
 
 
 
       PHOTOGRAPHS
 
    WRITTEN  HISTORICAL  AND  DESCRIPTIVE  DATA
 
 
 
 
 
     Historic American Engineering Record
     National Park Service
     Department of the Interior
     Washington, D.C.  202&0
 
(End of cover page)
 
 
 
    HISTORIC AMERICAN ENGINEERING RECORD
 
      NY-63
 
   Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad Station
 
 
Location:   South Park Avenue at the southern end of Main Street
    on the Buffalo River between Michigan Avenue to the
    east and the Skyway to the west in downtown Buffalo,
    New York
 
 
Date of Construction: 1917
 
 
Present Owner:  City of Buffalo
    c/o Director of Real Estate
    Office of Comptroller, 12th Floor
    City Hall
    Buffalo, New York 14202
 
 
 
Present Use:  Partial use of the site for cargo storage and ship
    repair, under lease arrangements with City of Buffalo.
    Otherwise property vacant since 1962.
 
 
Significance:  The terminal's double deck train shed, attributed to
    Lincoln Bush, is considered to be significant as an
    early example of the innovative use of reinforced
    concrete.
 
 
Historian:   Joan P. Schmidt, May 1979
    Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority
    18l Ellicott Street
    Buffalo, NY 14205
 
(End of Page 1)
 
 
    HISTORICAL DESCRIPTION OF THE   HAER No. NY-63
           Page 2
   DELAWARE, LACKAWANNA AND WESTERN RAILRAOD STATION
 
    SOUTH PARK AVENUE - BUFFALO, NEW YORK
 
The Delaware, Lackawanna, and Western (D.L.& W.) Railroad Terminal Complex was a
regionally significant structure within the context of transportation.  The D.L.& W.
was the oldest railroad station existing in Buffalo in 1979.  It was also the last
of the five stations which operated in Buffalo in 1923 at the city's zenith as a
major rail center.  Set on a prominent riverfront site, it retained its integrity
of design.
 
The 8.1 acre site, which was sold by the City of Buffalo and Conrail to the
Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority in 1979, is bounded on the north by
South Park Avenue, west by the Skyway, south by the Buffalo River and east by
Michigan Avenue.  The terminal complex consisted of four structures;  the train
shed and attached ticketing and terminal buildings to the west of the shed and
a brick signal tower/power house at the easternmost site boundary.
 
Erected in 1917, the terminal was the work of architect Kenneth M. Murchison,
with its double-deck train sheds, which are considered to be a significant
early example of the use of reinforced concrete, attributed to the D.L.& W.
Railroad's Chief Engineer, Lincoln Bush.
 
Architect Kenneth Murchison designed the shed and adjoining passenger terminal
to handle both train and steamer passengers.  The upper level tracks rest on a
reinforced concrete deck supported by concrete columns.  The six upper level
tracks accommodated passenger traffic and the three lower tracks were for
express shipments.      .
;
The Bush train shed was an important development in twentieth century railroad
facility technology and represented an innovative use of reinforced concrete.
Patented in 1904, this type of shed presented an economical alternative to the
large span glass train shed.  Each shed unit, composed of steel arched girders
carrying reinforced concrete slabs, spanned two lines of track and half a
platform on each side.  The roof contained skylights for light and deep slots for
the escape of fumes.  The D.L.& W. in Buffalo is among the oldest surviving
examples of the Bush train sheds.
 
The first moor of the two-story rectangular train shed (600' X 125') consisted
of various walls and reinforced concrete columns (on an approximate 27"X 27'
grid) that supported the second floor of the shed.  The exterior walls were
brick with long rows of windows alternating with wide bay track bed and.elevated
concrete loading platforms.  The western end consisted of two large rooms and
several small rooms separated by concrete block and wood-plaster walls.
 
The second floor was a reinforced concrete slab with exterior brick walls between
steel columns on the north, south and west faces.  The semi-weather-protective
roof consisted of arched concrete slabs supported by arched steel beams with an
extensive network of skylights along the peaks.  The entire second floor was
open with concrete platforms between track beds.
 
 
 
 
           HAER No.  NY-63
           Page 3
 
 
The ticketing and terminal buildings had steel Frames with various types of
masonry and architectural finishes.  The two buildings consisted of several
large waiting areas, surrounded by smaller utility and office areas.  The
waiting areas were of marble and plaster finish with cathedral ceilings and
the smaller rooms were generally marble, ceramic tile and plaster finish.
 
The brick building constructed as a combination boiler room and signal tower
dated from the same origins as its companion D.L.& W. structures, and was 36
feet wide by 55 feet long and 31 feet tall at the upper track level of the
train shed.  From ground level adjacent to the Buffalo fireboat location, the
building was approximately 65 feet tall.
 
The then Erie-Lackawanna Railraod abandoned use of the D.L.& W. complex in 1962.
Six and a half acres of property was eventually acquired by the City of Buffalo
through non payment of taxes with the remainder going to Conrail.  In the years
between 1962 and 1979, the structures deteriorated badly through an unfortunate
combination of neglect, vandalism, and systematic scavenging.  In the terminal
buildings, marble and plaster had cracked and fallen from the walls and
ceilings.  Also, marble had systematically been removed by scavengers for
salvage.  Door and window frames were broken, and the-marble steps from the
main staircases had been removed.  In general, the ticketing and terminal
buildings had been gutted, with the floors being covered by rubble from the
walls and ceilings.
 
A December 15, 1974 article in the Buffalo Courier Express' Sunday Magazine
stated that:
 "The rails and crossties have been removed from its six-track,
 elevated train shed, many of the tiles have fallen from the high
 arched ceilings of its waiting rooms, vandals have broken almost
 every window, weeds have grown through the cracks in its roof and
 pigeons have become the building's principal inhabitants.  Even
 the majestic marble staircase which curved from the main floor con-
 course to the second story waiting room has been reduced to rubble."
 
As for the signal tower, the interior, lower portion of which once served as
a boiler room, had been gutted by fire and was badly deteriorated.
 
In 1977, the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority (NFTA) settled on the
D.L.& W. complex as the most appropriate yard site for the maintenance and
storage of rail vehicles for the Buffalo Light Rail Rapid Transit (LRRT) system.
A major reason for this decision was the unique opportunity for covered storage
that would be offered by the rehabilitated train shed.
 
However, the NFTA proposal required demolition of the ticketing and terminal
building portions of the D.L.& W. site, in order to construct a complex ladder
track switching area to facilitate turning trains from their mainline alignment
to the individual storage bays of the train sheds.  Due to the local confinement
of the site caused by the Skyway, river, train sheds and South Park Avenue, these
 
 
 
 
           HAER No. NY-63
           Page 4
 
 
switching movements would have to be made directly beneath the ticketing and
terminal building.  The permanent underpinning of complex structures this size
and in their deteriorating condition and in an area requiring pile foundations,
was not considered practical or economically feasible.
 
Likewise, in order to construct the yard and shop site, it was necessary to
demolish the signal tower power house as its location would interfere with
the placement of a necessary loop track.
 
The LRRT project underwent an extensive federal Environmental Impact Statement
(EIS) process which included consideration of any structures having historic
status or potential status.  Local and New York State historic preservation
officials and groups were included in this process, throughout which the NFTA
was assured that the D.L.&W. was not worthy of consideration as a landmark.
 
In the two months following approval of the final EIS for the LRRT in December
1977, a local landmark designation for the D.L.&W. was conferred and then
rescinded by municipal authorities following a public hearing.  The historic
question lingered, however, and in November 1978 the terminal complex was
declared Eligible for Inclusion in the National Register of Historic Places by
the United States Department of the Interior.
 
Representatives of the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation (ACHP), New
York State Historic Preservation Office (SHPO), and all local historic preserva-
tion groups joined the NFTA and its funding agency, the U.S. Department of
Transportation and the Urban Mass Transportation Administration (UMTA) in an
on-site inspection of the D.L.&W. in January of 1979.
 
Subsequently, the NFTA advertised nationally for prospective developers for the
terminal and solicited all levels of government for prospective uses for the
buildings.  As no proposals were forthcoming, a Memorandum of Agreement was
executed and concurred in by UMTA, the NFTA, and the SHPO, with final approval
granted by ACHP by June of 1979.
 
The Memorandum contained permission for the NFTA to demolish the two passenger
buildings and the signal tower in return for assurance that the train shed would
be rehabilitated and preserved in accord with the U.S. Secretary of the
Interior's Standards for Rehabilitation.  It was further stipulated that the
NFTA would consult with the SHPO on rehabilitation and that an archival record
of the complex would be filed with the Historic American Engineering Record
(HAER) prior to demolition.
 
The foregoing narrative, complemented by negatives, photographs and drawings,
is intended to satisfy this requirement and constitute the HAER archival record.
A copy of this record has also been presented to the Buffalo Historical Society.
 

Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 1:10pm
Henry: Many, many thanks for taking the time to post all that fascinating history and highly-detailed trivia about the old DL&W station in Buffalo. Buffalo, it seems, is a city that cares little or nothing about its once-great railroad heritage. I guess I don't have to remind you of what has happened over the years to NYCRR's awe-inspiring Buffalo Central Terminal. The old Lackawanna terminal in Buffalo seemed to reflect the Hoboken terminal's lofty, high-ceilinged opulece. Truly a disgrace that all that maginificent, old-world craftsmanship was allowed to fall prey to mindless vandals and the elements. What a showplace that building would be today if still standing! And, imagine if, by some miracle, it was STILL in use as a passenger train facility? Anyone who knew the terminal while still in use is truly more fortunate than they realize.
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 1:17pm
Henry: tried to view the Buffalo terminal pics with the link you provided; I only could view the first pic, and could not enlarge it. When I went to try the view the others, all I got was "PAGE CANNOT BE FOUND" when I clicked on where a pic would be. Perhaps the site is having problems.
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 1:24pm
Buffalo as a city doesn't care about its railroad heritage, but Buffalo has a LOT of railfans who do care and can't do anything about it.
 
Buffalo is about as down and out as an American city can be without having a natural disaster like Katrina. The short-sighted politicians have milked it for all it was worth for 50 years (they're STILL trying) and now it is 100% broke and being run by a control board. Taxes ae high as they can legally be and services have been cut to the bone in order to be able to pay patronage and the yearly union extortion for Police, Fire and education. Even with its pathetic financial plight, the Buffalo area is still a great place to live. No hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamia, floods, killer bees, baking temps, constant rain or other regional afflictions and it has four distinct seasons.  (not including Road Construction) The snowfall really isn't anywhere near as bad as the media makes it out to be and it isn't anywhere near as cold as places like Minneapolis. No daily traffic jams either, rush hour is a piece of cake compared to most cities. I used to get 4 miles home from working downtown in about 10 minutes or less. I have lived in a number of places and if Buffalo wasn't in New York State it would be #1 on my list of places to live. NYS is a hell-hole of taxation and political ignorance and corruption.
 
Henry
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 1:33pm
     Henry: Jersey City (NJ) through the 60's, was still very much a busy, bustling railroad town, with sprawling frieght and passenger yards, cavernous rail/ferry terminals, roundhouses, coaling docks, and too many other historically significant railroad buildings to mention. Today, only the proud 1889 CNJ terminal (minus its ferry terminal structure) still remains, restored magnificently at Liberty State Park. Nothing whatsoever remains of the massive Erie Terminal at Pavonia Avenue, nor does anything remain from the electrified PRR terminal at Exchange Place. For all practical purposes, nearly all of Jersey City's historic rail structures are now gone. In thier place, rises row upon row of high-rise condos and offices, malls, and new roadways. The railroads built Jersey City, but, today, they are virtually forgotten. Really tragic that the same mentality rules in Buffalo. Granted, restoring and maintaining a hulking rail facilty from another era is indeed a VERY expensive undertaking, but, just look at the GARBAGE that the govenment wastes thousands....if not MILLIONS......on. "BUFFALO: A TRAGIC TALE OF TWO TERMINALS"......
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 1:33pm
on Sep 8th, 2005, 1:17pm, RARITAN_CLOCKER wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Henry: tried to view the Buffalo terminal pics with the link you provided; I only could view the first pic, and could not enlarge it. When I went to try the view the others, all I got was "PAGE CANNOT BE FOUND" when I clicked on where a pic would be. Perhaps the site is having problems.

 
The LOC makes it nearly impossible to link Memory Finder pages because of their poorly designed data retrieval system. It's a travesty that it hasn't been redone by now. That's part of what I mean about how they make it hard to share info.
 
Go here:
 
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/
 
and search (upper right on the page) for this:
 
Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad, Lackawann, Main Street & Buffalo River, Buffalo, Erie County, NY
 
Henry
 
P.S. In the above HAER text, THEY misspelled "RAILRAOD" several times and I left it that way as a matter of historic record.
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 2:16pm
Here's an easier way to view them, I got sick of playing games with their URLs every time I want to share those pics.
 
http://www.buffalonet.org/trains/pics/dlw/dlwterminal/
 
Henry
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 2:57pm
   Henry: Multitudes of thanks from this die-hard anthracite road fan for posting those MAGNIFICENT photos!! To see what magnificent granduer was casually and carelessly allowed to decay and fall prey to the elements and vandals truly is nothing short of sickening. That must have been a truly elegant and magnificent structure in its heydey; I'm only glad that its architects are not around today. Right now, I'm looking at a pic from Larry DeYoung's "ERIE LACKAWANNA IN COLOR: VOLUME 4 THE EARLY YEARS", taken in 1961,  showing a SW-1 (still lettered LACKAWANNA) switching a modernized heavyweight coach while a PA (still in full ERIE livery) awaits departure to Hoboken with its train while it basks in the sun just outside of the Bush sheds. This scene was truly living on borrowed time back then. The interior shots of the Bush sheds after abandonment were eerily remiscent of the pics I've seen of the CNJ's Bush sheds at Jersey City, after the terminal closed down in 1967.
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 5:19pm
on Sep 8th, 2005, 1:33pm, RARITAN_CLOCKER wrote:       (Click here for original message)
"BUFFALO: A TRAGIC TALE OF TWO TERMINALS"......

 
I missed that the first time around, Buffalo had FOUR terminals.  
 
The Erie's was gone in the 1930's and there are very few photos of that one anywhere. I have only ever seen one picture and it wasn't a very good one.
 
The Lehigh Valley had a magnificent terminal only a stone's throw from the DL&W terminal and it was of the same vintage. It was ripped down in the early 1960's and a state office building was built on its site. Another tragic architectural loss thanks to POLITICIANS.
 
Henry
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 5:46pm
           Henry: I never knew of the Erie's terminal in Buffalo. LV's elegant terminal, of course, I knew about, orphaned in the mid-50s so a new highway could take over the ROW leading to it. Sad to think that, at one time, Buffalo was indeed a MAJOR rail hub, serving passengers from many points. Today, it's only Amtrak, and, of course, its station is certainly not in the league of the former DL&W's or the LV's.
Posted by: JBS Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 5:51pm
couple more photos here:
http://wnyheritagepress.org/photos_week_2004/dlw_terminal/dlw_terminal.htm
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 6:10pm
     JBS: MAGNIFICENT!! Thanks for sharing these additional photos!! Truly a majestic structure, so typical of the Lackawanna!! And this station was opened only a few months before my mother was born!! I especially loved reading about the "Ladies Parlor", so typical in train stations of that era. A true product of a VERY genteel and elegant era!!
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 8th, 2005, 8:48pm
    The following is from: "ERIE-LACKAWANNA: DEATH OF AN AMERICAN RAILROAD" by H. Rodger Grant: "............the terminal building (at Buffalo) was a monument to the extravagance of another day; its cavernous immensity a bit embarrasing when contrasted to its diminishing usefullness. The sweeping marble staircases that led to the second-story concourse, the seventy-five foot ceilings, magnificent in their decadence, symbolized a bygone day." Rest In Peace, Buffalo Terminal.
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Sep 10th, 2005, 10:18pm
To introduce myself. A regular member here has urged, for months, that with my interests in the industry, this is a "must join" group. I've watched various threads for months, and a sincere salute to the very high quality of what I have seen.....
 
I have used the HwyHaulier handle for many years. Much of my work experience has been on the rubber tired side. I am something of a complete fanatic about the DL&W. In the 1960s, I worked for a number years with a large, national motor carrier, managed by a very fine group of people who left Hoboken, post the merger (so called) with that other line. I started service with the firm at its station in BUF.
 
This DL&W - BUF thread has put me over the edge. On topic, what could possibly have been all six stations serving BUF in 1923? I can figure one each: NYC, LV, DLW, ERIE, PA.  
 
But, what of the sixth? B&O (BR&P)? WAB? NKP? The last shud be over the top, as I'll conjecture it was in early with DLW.......
 
Many thanks for the various BUF views in this thread......
 
.............Vern.............Bel Air, MD...............
 
 
 
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 10th, 2005, 10:45pm
 Vern: First of all, WELCOME ABOARD!! Second, I'm glad you FINALLY took my advice and joined!! Rail forums do NOT get ANY better than this!! You have some real masterminds here, regarding the rails!! Hey, guys, just know that Vern is a great guy and a good personal friend of mine........not only is he a big DL&W fan, but also, he is VERY knowledgeable on the trucking industry past and president, and, of course, piggyback operations!! Vern, again, welcome to the Rolls-Royce of Rail Forums!!
Posted by: arnstg Posted on: Sep 10th, 2005, 11:14pm
Great discussion on this fine old terminal. I used to work once in a while Downtown from 12M-8AM. Made sure to get there early so as I could catch  the inbound NKP connection for the train  to NJ.
 
  Fine old station. Sad to see what it has become. Oh to be able let you visulize what I saw.
 
  Regarding the Library of Congress descriptions for their photos: I don't know who did them but their sense of direction is way off. The first photo says they are shooting from the end of Main St. towards the southeast . Come on.  
 
 Surely they mean Southwest. Unfortunately , other photos have similar errors.
 
  Hmmm. I wonder where he /she got their compass!
 
 
  Hope you  keep us to date on what's happening.
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 11th, 2005, 12:44am
    Back in the early 60s, I can remember seeing NKP Pullmans at Hoboken; when did the NKP through-car service to Hoboken via the E-L  stop? I can remember, as best I can, seeing the NKP cars at Hoboken around, say, 1963 and 1964.
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Sep 11th, 2005, 11:47am
Raritan, et. al. .....
 
Thanks for welcoming post! Ref. NKP. Might I conjecture that the known date of close of DL&W -BUF coincided with end of CGO - BUF service over NKP? That thru service must have become quite tenuous post merger. One could see who was in charge: The massive trashing and destruction of perfectly good DL&W rail lines, thus breaking the old, established routings.....
 
Errata. In my 10:18 pm of last nite, I don't know why I had six stations on my mind. Too late an hour? I looked at message #6, with this, again....
 
"...The D.L.&W. was the oldest railroad station existing in Buffalo in 1979.  It was also the last of the five stations which operated in Buffalo in 1923 at the city's zenith as a major rail center.  Set on a prominent riverfront site, it retained its integrity of design."  
 
So, guess I identified the five in my message. Now a matter of figuring who ran where? Five stations hints B&O had already agreed with DLW to run the BR&P schedules in/ out DLW...... And, just what did dear, old WAB do, anyway?
 
Henry - In your 9/8 @ 1:24 pm. I was tickled with your summary of present day BUF. I lived there, 1962 thru 1964. I always walked around with the perception the clock stopped on Black Friday, 1929, and I was in some kind of a time warp. Lots of glorious sights, tho most in a somewhat shabby condition. I don't like reading too much BUF material in one sitting; it's much too depressing! Ah, they have all moved to Tampa!
 
..................Vern..................
 
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 11th, 2005, 11:52am
on Sep 10th, 2005, 10:18pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
8<--
This DL&W - BUF thread has put me over the edge. On topic, what could possibly have been all six stations serving BUF in 1923? I can figure one each: NYC, LV, DLW, ERIE, PA.  
8
But, what of the sixth? B&O (BR&P)? WAB? NKP? The last shud be over the top, as I'll conjecture it was in early with DLW.......
8<--

 
Vern,
 
Welcome to the forum!
 
I am curious as to the context of the statement that there were 6 stations serving Buffalo in 1923. There were far more than 6 stations, but most didn't serve through trains.
 
The NYC had the Union Depot on Exchange St, but also had an East Buffalo depot as the Union Depot was downtown and not on the main line.  
 
The Erie had its Michigan St depot, but also had an East Buffalo depot (not far from NYC's E Buffalo depot) where the Niagara Falls Branch diverged from the main line.  
 
DL&W and LV had their downtown terminals.
 
Grand Trunk had a depot in Black Rock by the International Bridge at the connection to the NYC's Belt Line.
 
PRR had already moved into the NYC's Union Depot on Exchange. Their little facility was only a stone's throw from the NYC's Union Depot and was the equivalent of an Amshack a century ago.
 
NKP, B&O/BR&P and WAB shared the DL&W Terminal. Prior to its consruction the BR&P used NYC's Union Depot.
 
The NYC had 15 other stations on its Belt Line for commuter service and one more station ("North Buffalo") just north of the Belt Line on the Niagara Falls branch. Belt Line commuter service was discontinued some time after WW I.
 
The Erie had 7 more stations in Buffalo on its line to Niagar Falls from East Buffalo; Sycamore, Genessee, East Ferry, East Delavan, Kensington, Main St and International Jct. There were also at least two more stations served by Buffalo & Southwestern trains to Olean and Salamanca. I don't know how long the Buffalo local stops on the NF and B&SW trains lasted, probably until WW I and not much after then.
 
The DL&W had at least 1 more station (at Main St) on its line to Black Rock and the International Bridge. I imagine they had some sort of depot at Black Rock too. I doubt passenger service on that line lasted to WW I.
 
In 1923 many interurbans will still going and I believe there was sort of a traction terminal downtown at Lafayette Square.
 
In 1923 the stations serving at least some of the through trains would have been: NYC Exchange St, *possibly* NYC East Buffalo, DL&W Terminal, Erie Michigan St, Erie East Buffalo, LV Terminal and Grand Trunk Black Rock.  
 
In 1926 the railroads with passenger service at Buffalo accounting for 151 expresses and 140 locals included: NYC (NYC&HRR, LS&MS, MC, NYWS&B, TH&B, B&NF, B&L, C&NF); Erie (A&B/B&NYC, SB&EJ, B&SW/B&J); PRR (BNY&P/WNY&P, BC&P); DL&W; BR&P; NKP; LV; B&W; GT; Wabash.
 
I am sure this makes things more confusing than ever, but I hope it helps some.
 
Henry
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 11th, 2005, 12:04pm
on Sep 11th, 2005, 11:47am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Raritan, et. al. .....
 
Thanks for welcoming post! Ref. NKP. Might I conjecture that the known date of close of DL&W -BUF coincided with end of CGO - BUF service over NKP? That thru service must have become quite tenuous post merger. One could see who was in charge: The massive trashing and destruction of perfectly good DL&W rail lines, thus breaking the old, established routings.....

 
I believe NKP/EL through service continued from "East Buffalo" until at least the N&W/NKP/WAB merger.
 
Quote:

 
Errata. In my 10:18 pm of last nite, I don't know why I had six stations on my mind. Too late an hour? I looked at message #6, with this, again....
 
"...The D.L.&W. was the oldest railroad station existing in Buffalo in 1979.  It was also the last of the five stations which operated in Buffalo in 1923 at the city's zenith as a major rail center.  Set on a prominent riverfront site, it retained its integrity of design."  
 
So, guess I identified the five in my message. Now a matter of figuring who ran where? Five stations hints B&O had already agreed with DLW to run the BR&P schedules in/ out DLW...... And, just what did dear, old WAB do, anyway?

 
I think I covered that in the previous post.
 
Quote:

Henry - In your 9/8 @ 1:24 pm. I was tickled with your summary of present day BUF. I lived there, 1962 thru 1964. I always walked around with the perception the clock stopped on Black Friday, 1929, and I was in some kind of a time warp. Lots of glorious sights, tho most in a somewhat shabby condition. I don't like reading too much BUF material in one sitting; it's much too depressing! Ah, they have all moved to Tampa!

 
I have been living in Ohio for the past 5 years, but I'll be moving back to Buffalo soon. My family, friends and business are there. I can't say if I will stay there for the rest of my life or not, I have this dream of finding a house in the country on a busy main line or at a junction and Ohio or Pennsylvania may be to where I retire.
 
Until NYS and Buffalo politicians made living there almost unbearable, I really loved living in Buffalo. With mother's health deteriorating quickly I really need to be back there with her now.
 
Henry
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Sep 11th, 2005, 12:26pm
Henry -
 
Many thanks for detailed view of stations in BUF. In your #6, I ran with the view the five stations only embraced major sites. I knew - from walking around - there were endless "flags", "conditionals" and commute stops, throughout the region.
 
Concur, ref. NKP. Once the lights went out at the foot of Main Street, E-L had the fall back play to East Buffalo.....
 
An aside, sort of. Reasons to move to BUF. The great news is there are truly super deals on the housing. Not much of this high flying nonsense, seen in the BAL market, of some crappy little 2 BR bungalow moving out @ $500K. Also, concur BUF is fine, as long as one can get their head on straight in dealing with the weather. Them's that can't deal with it best go to Tampa or Tempe......
 
..............Vern...............
 
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 11th, 2005, 12:52pm
       Fellows: Many folks (even many railfans) tend to forget Buffalo's role as a busy railroad center through the 50s and into the 60s. The E-L closed the magnificent old DL&W station in 1962, but continued to operate out of Babcock St. until 1969. The NYC's mammoth Buffalo Central Terminal soon became nothing more than a massive, echoing mausoleum. The LV's elegant, 1916-era terminal was shut down in the mid 50's and, today, no longer exists. If Buffalo's railroad heritage is pretty much ignored these days, rest assured that the DL&W's efforts in helping to develop the greater Buffalo area are virtually forgotten altogether. Truly sad that so much of Buffalo's great railroad heritage has already been lost to the ages. BTW.....do any former DL&W viaducts remain in the city? Or, have they all been destroyed as well?
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 11th, 2005, 1:13pm
on Sep 11th, 2005, 12:52pm, RARITAN_CLOCKER wrote:       (Click here for original message)
8<---
 If Buffalo's railroad heritage is pretty much ignored these days, rest assured that the DL&W's efforts in helping to develop the greater Buffalo area are virtually forgotten altogether. Truly sad that so much of Buffalo's great railroad heritage has already been lost to the ages. BTW.....do any former DL&W viaducts remain in the city? Or, have they all been destroyed as well?

 
There is very little awareness of how the RR's helped build Buffalo. Most people think the Erie Canal built Buffalo, but it was only a minor player after about 1850.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by viaducts. If you mean substantial bridges then no, those are all gone.  
 
There is only one intact DL&W bridge in the city that I can recall at the moment. That is a plate girder bridge at Military Rd on the Black Rock branch of which only a short remnant remains and is used to occasionally serve a business with loads of plastic pellets. "LACKAWANNA RAILROAD" on the bridge girders were finally painted over about 8 years ago. I believe I have the last photos ever taken of that bridge before it was repainted, I shot it while the painting crews were there!
 
Most of the DL&W Black Rock branch right of way in the Buffalo area has been absolutely obliteratated and in many areas has been built over in the past 15 years. It's heart breaking.  
 
Henry
Posted by: RARITAN_CLOCKER Posted on: Sep 11th, 2005, 3:55pm
  Henry: To think that the DL&W was once so prominent in Buffalo, and now, almost all traces of this noble carrier have been obliterated....DANG!! NO RESPECT FOR HISTORY!! Just keep on building those Wal-Marts, Home Depots, Taco Bells, malls, condos, and townhouses.........with NO respect WHATSOEVER for the history bieng destroyed!!  "SAYS PHOEBE SNOW/WHO CANNOT GO/UPON HER TRIP TO BUFFALO/THINGS ARE NOT RIGHT/THERE'S NO DELIGHT/THEY'VE RUINED MY ROAD OF ANTHRACITE"
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Sep 14th, 2005, 1:50pm
on Sep 11th, 2005, 11:47am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Thanks for welcoming post! Ref. NKP. Might I conjecture that the known date of close of DL&W -BUF coincided with end of CGO - BUF service over NKP? That thru service must have become quite tenuous post merger. One could see who was in charge: The massive trashing and destruction of perfectly good DL&W rail lines, thus breaking the old, established routings.....

 
Vern,
 
I looked into the issue of when through servive via the NKP died and came up with the following from Ed Montgomery:
Quote:

Here's a little help,
 
I have an EL timetable with the N&W connection but by that time the train had been cut back to Fort  
Wayne.  Apparently N&W had to discontinue service state by state.  There was a picture of the last  
train leaving Fort Wayne in one of the TRAINS magazines of that era.
 
Ed Montgomery

 
And this from Mike Connor (his dad was in management for the Erie and EL, I met him at an ELHS meeting, and Mike works in RRing)
Quote:

I don't have access to NW(K) passenger off lists but EL Form 1 (28  
April 1963) shows a through coach in Train  1-31 from "New York-Chicago, via  
NKP No. 5 (Train 1-31)".  No through Sleeping Cars (NKP had a  
Buffalo-Chicago Sleeper in NKP #5).
  There was a 2nd Edition of the EL Form 1 of 28 April 1963 (no date  
shown) and the New York-Chicago [coach] via NKP #5 is no longer shown.  NKP  
#5 was shown as having a Bflo-Chgo coach and a Bflo-Chgo Sleeping Car.
  The next EL Form 1 was 29 September 1963 so I surmise that the last  
through NKP-EL coach was between c. 1 May 1963 and September 1963.
   The NKP was merged into the N&W 16 October 1964 so there was no  
through NW-EL coach or Sleeping Car service via Buffalo.
Hope this helps.
M J Connor

 
And this from Bill Weibel:
Quote:

The BAGGAGE cars did  not the Pullman cars..at least coming thru Scranton  
EB.

 
Meaning that under N&W baggage cars were still interchanged.
 
Henry
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Dec 9th, 2005, 1:03pm
The remaining trainshed of the Terminal could become some sort of gaming casino thing. Why politicians think that gambling is good for a depressed rust-belt city is beyond me. More tax-free sovereign territory and the City of Buffalo just raised the property taxes on my house in Buffalo 40%. I think it is absolutely ridiculous.
 
Henry
 
http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20051209/1009490.asp
 
Senecas undeterred as ground is broken for downtown casino
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next New Year's is aim for debut on 9-acre site in Cobblestone District
 
By SHARON LINSTEDT and MARK SOMMER  
News Staff Reporters
12/9/2005  
 
The Seneca Nation of Indians is moving ahead to develop the Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino on vacant land in downtown Buffalo's Cobblestone District.  
During a groundbreaking ceremony Thursday, Seneca leaders announced they will build their main gambling complex on a nine-acre site along Michigan Avenue, the area they previously said would be a parking lot.  
 
While the Senecas have not set an exact time frame for opening their Buffalo casino, leaders said they want to begin construction this spring and will aim for a debut on New Year's Eve 2006.  
 
They also will continue efforts to acquire the nearby Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad terminal to expand their entertainment operations, as well as more land in the neighborhood for additional parking.  
 
"The nine acres is the main casino site; the DL&W would be an extension of that presence," said Rajat Shah, Seneca Gaming Corp.'s senior vice president for corporate development.  
 
The Senecas are looking at the second floor of the rail facility to develop limited gambling, retail, entertainment and a restaurant, according to Shah.  
 
The Senecas are making no secret of their desire to control more Cobblestone neighborhood property beyond the nine acres that became sovereign territory Dec. 2. Several sources said the Seneca Nation is seeking property for parking adjacent to the casino site.  
 
Unlike the Seneca casino deal in Niagara Falls, where parcels of land were identified in negotiations between the state and the tribe for its gambling operation, there is no specified limit on the amount of land that the tribe can acquire in Buffalo.  
 
However, the Senecas' casino compact with the State of New York says the land the tribe obtains in Buffalo must be limited for "gaming and commercial activities traditionally associated with the operation or conduct of a casino facility."  
 
The compact does not spell out what those activities are. And given the different things the Senecas have sold at their casino in Niagara Falls - from stereos to cigarettes - a Seneca casino in downtown Buffalo could end up being another location for smokers to buy cigarettes tax-free.  
 
At Thursday's groundbreaking, the Senecas also announced they will solicit designs from architects across the country to create a "signature destination."  
 
"We want it to have a distinctive flair," said John Pasqualoni, president and chief executive officer of Seneca Gaming. "We want a world-class facility that fits in with the HSBC Arena and the proposed Bass Pro store."  
 
Mayor Anthony M. Masiello, long a backer of a Buffalo casino, heralded the casino development as a "critical component" of downtown Buffalo's rebirth.  
 
The 100,000-square-foot casino complex will be built to accommodate 2,200 slot machines, 50 gaming tables, a buffet and a fine-dining restaurant. A 2,500-vehicle parking garage and operations facilities are planned for the nine-acre site bounded by Michigan and South Park avenues, and Fulton and Marvin streets.  
 
Leaders and dozens of other members of the Seneca Nation gathered for Thursday's groundbreaking, which served as a homecoming of sorts. Several times during the ceremony, speakers sprinkled their remarks with the Senecas' native language.  
 
Seneca President Barry E. Snyder Sr. recalled that 167 years ago, the Senecas were driven off the Buffalo Creek lands. "This is a truly wonderful homecoming for the Seneca people, and we are here forever," he said.  
 
While several Cobblestone District residents also were on hand, some holding up "Welcome Senecas" signs, they were vastly outnumbered by casino protesters. The chorus included those who oppose gambling, as well as preservationists who want the historic H-O Oats grain elevator on the building site to be saved.  
 
The protesters, many of them holding anti-casino signs, chanted "Shame on You" and "More harm than good" as dignitaries made their congratulatory speeches.  
 
Many were members of Citizens Against Casino Gambling in Erie County, which has announced that it will file lawsuits in federal and state courts to stop the casino. "It's a very sad day for Buffalo," said Bill Durfee, a member of the group. "The notion that the casino is going to be an engine for development is ludicrous. Study after study has shown casinos are a net drain on the economy. Casinos don't rejuvenate neighborhoods or cities."  
 
Tim Tielman of Campaign for Greater Buffalo expressed his dismay as the wrecking ball collided with the 1912 H-O Oats mill for the first time, barely disturbing it.  
 
"It's a disgrace that our elected leadership is standing here cheering on the destruction of a historic structure," Tielman said. "Development can co-exist with historic buildings, but no one is giving it a try here."  
 
Afterward, Snyder said that there would be no final decision on what to do with the H-O silos until an assessment is done.  
 
Snyder said he had no intention of meeting with preservationists. "We're more concerned about the Seneca Nation; that's my position," he said.  
 
Pressed on why he would not meet with them, he answered, "I don't have to."  
 
Mayor-elect Byron W. Brown was more optimistic about working with the Senecas to make sure serious consideration is given to preservation issues.  
 
"The Senecas have not made up their minds yet about how to deal with the H-O Oats elevator, and I would urge them to explore whether it can be incorporated in their plans if that is reasonable and appropriate," Brown said.  
 
 
Tom Precious of The News Albany Bureau contributed to this report.  
 
e-mail: slinstedt@buffnews.com
and msommer@buffnews.com
 
 
Posted by: efin98 Posted on: Dec 28th, 2005, 1:20am
The Buffalo Central Terminal not enough for you guys that you want something kept that is not even there anymore God forbid there be more than one decaying ruin left in that city that a very small number of people gawk at...
 
Frankly I don't blame the city for wanting the last vestiges of the terminal torn down in favor of something that actually is of use to the folks who live there.
 
Quote:
There is very little awareness of how the RR's helped build Buffalo. Most people think the Erie Canal built Buffalo, but it was only a minor player after about 1850.

 
Nice smoke and mirrors there.  You are right, AFTER 1850 they were minor players. But BEFORE then they were king. No canal, no city of Buffalo. The railroad didn't build the city, the canal did. Amazing how many of the companies were built on the money generated from those waterways
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Dec 28th, 2005, 2:34pm
on Dec 28th, 2005, 1:20am, efin98 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
The Buffalo Central Terminal not enough for you guys that you want something kept that is not even there anymore God forbid there be more than one decaying ruin left in that city that a very small number of people gawk at...

 
Ed,
 
Nobody is talking about keeping decaying ruins. Preservation and adapative reuse of historic landmarks doesn't mean leaving decaying ruins around.
 
Significant architecture is one of the primary things promoted in Buffalo these days. DL&W Terminal was in a prime downtown location and now it's a freaking yard and carbarn for a next to useless light rail line.
 
Central Terminal is no longer decaying, it is in far better shape today than it was in 1999.  
 
Quote:

Frankly I don't blame the city for wanting the last vestiges of the terminal torn down in favor of something that actually is of use to the folks who live there.

 
Unless you have read something about this which I haven't, I'm unaware of anyone talking about tearing down the last vestiges of the terminal. The articles talk about using the second floor (the Bush trainsheds) as the casino.
 
Quote:

 
Nice smoke and mirrors there.  You are right, AFTER 1850 they were minor players. But BEFORE then they were king. No canal, no city of Buffalo. The railroad didn't build the city, the canal did. Amazing how many of the companies were built on the money generated from those waterways

 
The railroad in conjunction with the lake shipping is what allowed Buffalo to grow into a metropolis. If the Erie Canal  hadn't been built, Buffalo would still have become a city once the railroad was built. It was a logical location for a large grain and coal port operation. Cheap water transport began or ended at Buffalo because of Niagara Falls. This is the major reason the railroads wanted to get there, not because the Erie Canal was there. The Erie canal put Buffalo on the map, but after 1850 it didn't od much to keep it there.
 
Ed, do you deliberately try to piss people off, or is that just the way you always write?
 
Henry
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Dec 28th, 2005, 2:37pm
Here's a closer view of the Bush trainsheds which have been covered with some sort of rubberized roofing to fully enclose the second floor area.
 
Henry
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Dec 29th, 2005, 10:18am
Well, not directly appropos Buffalo - but the old I&GN (Mopac) station in San Antonio was abandoned and decaying. The AMTRAK line to Laredo (was that train the International - can't recall) made its San Antonio stop there while it ran, but the station was not used. You got on or off on the platform and hoped somebody was there to meet you or one of the cab companies had thought to have a few taxis there inc ase of business. I think ticketing was handled at the SP station used by the Sunset and there may have been a shuttle from I&GN to the SP station.
 
That station has been adapted and redeveloped as a financial institution and very nicely too. Anchor for redevelopment of the neighborhood and a good example of what can be done if somebody cares to.  
 
Fort Worth's former Amtrak Station on Jones Street (ex-Santa Fe) on the east side of downtown has been replaced as a station by a new-build Intermodal Center used not only by Amtrak, but also the TRE and Fort Worth T (transit operation - buses right now). The old station has been remodeled and adapted, along with freight-house next to it, to a market. Apaprently well- utilized and the whole deal is helping spiff up that end (east side) or downtown Fort Worth. Now if they can only get something going for the old T&P Station, the skyscraper (for its time) at the south end of downtown FW...
 
Some of the folks up "Nawth" might be able to pick up and idea or two from the Texians.
Posted by: Warren_Thompson Posted on: Dec 29th, 2005, 10:36am
Yes, it's nice that the San Antonio MoPac station was spared the wrecking ball. I checked it out several years ago after devouring a chicken-fried steak at then-nearby  
Lulu's Jailhouse Cafe.
 
However, it's sad that the Mission-style Katy terminal on the other side of town wasn't saved. It was a gem.
Posted by: Warren_Thompson Posted on: Dec 29th, 2005, 10:55am
Since we've [sort of] changed the venue to Texas, note that the former Southern Pacific (nee SAAP) station in Kerrville has been "preserved" as a commercial property.  
 
Note, as well, that this transplanted "Texian" up nawth is happy to say that several former Reading stations between Harrisburg and Reading are still standing and in good health.
Posted by: Don Posted on: Dec 29th, 2005, 11:51am
I remember the DL&W terminal well when as a young kid, I rode the DL&W quite a few times to visit relatives in NJ. Those NKP & DL&W Hudsons w/their large drivers were quite a sight for a little kid. The noises they made & seeing 1 glide into the terminal was a huge thrill. Last I recall being there was about 1958. Iirc,  F3's were the power of the day. While I enjoy diesels, it's hard to forget those steamers.
           Don
Posted by: efin98 Posted on: Jan 20th, 2006, 8:57am
on Dec 28th, 2005, 2:34pm, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Ed,
 
Nobody is talking about keeping decaying ruins. Preservation and adapative reuse of historic landmarks doesn't mean leaving decaying ruins around.
Significant architecture is one of the primary things promoted in Buffalo these days. DL&W Terminal was in a prime downtown location and now it's a freaking yard and carbarn for a next to useless light rail line.

 
I'll retract the decaying ruins rant in this case but I stand by that overall. I don't think the idea is getting a fair review here. I'd rather see the building reused for the good of the city than get destroyed and forgotten. A plaque and maybe some photographs adornding the entrance is more than enough to preserve the memory of the past.
 
And frankly the rail yard should be enough of a rail connection for all, even if it is along a "useless" light rail line.
 
Quote:
The railroad in conjunction with the lake shipping is what allowed Buffalo to grow into a metropolis.

 
Not quite. Considering the Welland Canal(connection between Lake Ontario and Lake Erie) was not built until after the Erie Canal, shipping was limited. It took the canal to bring the city into the shipping arena and took the rialroad to make it into the 2nd largest city in the state.
 
Quote:
If the Erie Canal  hadn't been built, Buffalo would still have become a city once the railroad was built.

 
That's a given like every other city and town of any size but that would have been decades off if not for the canal. It was isolated until the canal came and would not have been as big as it became for decades if at all. It would be just like Erie, PA except maybe with alot more tourism if not for the canal.
 
Quote:
It was a logical location for a large grain and coal port operation.

 
 
That's after the fact. No canal(really canals), no shipping of those things until well into the 1800s. There maybe have been an industry in furs and possibly military supplies but that's about it for a while to build up the town but that's about it and it would have been a short business.
 
Quote:
Cheap water transport began or ended at Buffalo because of Niagara Falls.

 
Due to the unpassable falls, they had no choice. Until the canal came in the lakes were isolated except via long overland routes. It took the canal to bring the water transporting up to what it is today.
 
Quote:
This is the major reason the railroads wanted to get there, not because the Erie Canal was there.

 
The canal hastened the building of the rail lines out to Buffalo and the port(s) along the lakes. True they would have reached the ports eventually, but they came due to the port built up thanks to the canal. If not for the canal, probably no rail service would have reached the city for decades.
 
 
Quote:
The Erie canal put Buffalo on the map, but after 1850 it didn't od much to keep it there.

 
The town was already on the map well before the canal reached Buffalo. What it did was make it blossom into a thriving port that railroads wanted to get in on. It hastened the link between the port of Buffalo and the rail lines heading downstate and east by decades.
 
And it's true, by the 1850s the canal didn't do much for the city any more. It was illogical to traverse the canal anymore since the railroads had reached the city. That's true of most other canals at that time. Just proves the point again about hastening the link between the city and the rail lines.
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Jan 20th, 2006, 11:15am
on Jan 20th, 2006, 8:57am, efin98 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

That's a given like every other city and town of any size but that would have been decades off if not for the canal. It was isolated until the canal came and would not have been as big as it became for decades if at all. It would be just like Erie, PA except maybe with alot more tourism if not for the canal.

The city was incorporated in 1832 and the last link in what would become the NYC&HR RR was a couple of decades later. If there had been no canal the RR link might have been completed several years earlier. Buffalo was a logical gateway to western shipping on the Great Lakes and would have grown very quickly with any practical transportation system which connected it to an eastern seaport.
 
Quote:

That's after the fact. No canal(really canals), no shipping of those things until well into the 1800s. There maybe have been an industry in furs and possibly military supplies but that's about it for a while to build up the town but that's about it and it would have been a short business.

Only until about 1850. The canal wasn't completed until 1825 and it was a number years after that before further capacity improvements allowed it to become an effective artery of mass commerce.
 
Quote:

Due to the unpassable falls, they had no choice. Until the canal came in the lakes were isolated except via long overland routes. It took the canal to bring the water transporting up to what it is today.

Once the RR reacxhed Buffalo the shipping would have grown very quickly, much more quickly than it did with the Erie Canal.
 
Quote:

The canal hastened the building of the rail lines out to Buffalo and the port(s) along the lakes. True they would have reached the ports eventually, but they came due to the port built up thanks to the canal. If not for the canal, probably no rail service would have reached the city for decades.

No through RR reached the Great Lakes or the Ohio River for about 2 decades as it was. I think the RR would have been built earlier without a canal due to the greater need for transportation.
 
Quote:

The town was already on the map well before the canal reached Buffalo. What it did was make it blossom into a thriving port that railroads wanted to get in on. It hastened the link between the port of Buffalo and the rail lines heading downstate and east by decades.

I disagree, the canal was competition for the RR at a logical western gateway. That gateway would have been important no matter what overland transportation system was used.
 
Quote:

And it's true, by the 1850s the canal didn't do much for the city any more. It was illogical to traverse the canal anymore since the railroads had reached the city. That's true of most other canals at that time. Just proves the point again about hastening the link between the city and the rail lines.

 
I still believe that once any through RR reached Buffalo, rapid growth would follow. I don't think the city would have been much different in size by 1900 or so.
 
Henry
Posted by: L. F. LOREE Posted on: Feb 2nd, 2006, 2:57pm
        To say that the destruction of the former DL&W terminal in Buffalo was a tragic loss, is indeed an understatement. Here was a structure that truly evoked an era when style, class, and elegance was commonplace in railroad station architecture; a structure that, had it been saved and restored, could have been preserved for future generations as a stunning reminder of Buffalo's once-vibrant railroad past. One a landmark structure such as this is destroyed it's gone forever.....and we are certainly the poorer for it.
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Aug 28th, 2006, 2:04pm
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:53:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: Jim Dent
Subject: Latest Plan for Buffalo DL&W Terminal (rshsdepot)
 
From the EL List...
 
Subject (erielack) Latest Plan for Buffalo DL&W Terminal  
 
NOTE: This message had contained at least one image attachment.
To view or download the image(s), click on or cut and paste the
following URL into your web browser:
 
 
http://lists.elhts.org/listthumb.cgi?erielack-08-26-06
 
DLW_Term_First_Level.jpg (image/jpeg, 1326x890 109996 bytes, BF: 10.73 ppb)
DLW_Term_Upper_Deck_Inside.jpg (image/jpeg, 1299x853 269634 bytes, BF: 4.11 ppb)
DLW_Term_Upper_Deck.jpg (image/jpeg, 1318x886 308308 bytes, BF: 3.79 ppb)
 
List,
 
Here is Plan # 63 for the Buffalo DL&W Terminal. Don't put much stock
in it. The Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority (NFTA) produces
2 or 3 plans a year for the past 25 years. Their motto and Mission Statement
reads: "PLANNING, NOT DOING". Late last year - a gambling casino. Earlier
last year - home to the Buffalo & Erie County Historiacal Society. Before that -  
a railroad museum. Before that - a hotel, etc. etc. etc.
 
Attached are 3 photos I took back in the early 80's when the terminal was
being converted to storage sheds and a maintenance facility for the NFTA
light rail. My friend was construction manager for the site and I gained rare
access and information.
 
Main Street may see revival - 2 ideas entertained for 3-block section
 
By SHARON LINSTEDT  
Buffalo News Staff Reporter
8/26/2006  
 
The former DL&W train terminal at the foot of Main Street could become a convention center, and the nearby HSBC Atrium office building could be converted to a hotel under a long-term vision to revitalize Buffalo's Lower Main Street.  
The Erie Canal Harbor Development Corp. on Friday confirmed that those two high-concept reuses are being contemplated as part of its effort to transform a three-block section of Main Street, from the Buffalo River to Exchange Street. The goal is to turn it into a place to work, live and play, anchored by a Bass Pro Shops Outdoor World store in the Aud.  
 
"I would categorize these as early concepts of what could be," said Larry Quinn, vice president of the harbor development panel.  
 
The convention center and hotel ideas are "extremely preliminary, but intriguing," he added.  
 
"We haven't talked to the [Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority, which owns the DL&W terminal] and have had a brief conversation with HSBC Bank. We're only at the point where we're dreaming several years out about what could happen on Lower Main Street," he said.  
 
In March, the harbor panel unveiled a multiphase blueprint for some $1.4 billion in development aimed at harnessing the momentum of Bass Pro, the Erie Canal Harbor restoration and the emerging Cobblestone District to create a neighborhood along Main Street. These latest ideas are part of a "fleshing out" process, Quinn said.  
 
"We're continuing to work on specifics for the first phase, but we also need to look out into the future. Both the DL&W and HSBC buildings are in the footprint of the project, so we can't ignore them. We need to consider both short-term and long-range possibilities," he said.  
 
He noted that the plan unveiled in March included housing across the Buffalo River on the outer harbor, accessed via a two-lane lift bridge that hasn't been built.  
 
"That's another example of contemplating what's possible. We're exploring the "what ifs' to make sure this is the best project it can be," Quinn added.  
 
Ronald R. Dukarm
rdukarm at adelphia dot net
 
Jim Dent
Oakland, NJ
=================================
The Railroad Station Historical Society maintains a database of existing
railroad structures at: http://www.rrshs.org
Posted by: Alcophile Posted on: Sep 1st, 2006, 2:10am
If I know anything it'll be talked about for a few years and they'll give up. Remember Aquafalls in Niagara Falls? I think this new Sabres emblem has a symbolic meaning, eh.
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Aug 12th, 2010, 3:47pm
http://www.buffalonews.com/city/communities/downtown/article97412.ece
 
Still empty, hope springs eternal for something to happen at the last remnants of Buffalo's DL&W Terminal, the now enclosed Bush Trainshed.
 
There is a photo of the interior at the above URL. I rode my bicycle through the trainshed and into the headhouse of the terminal back in 1979 before it was demolished.
 
Henry
 
 
Terminal trains keen eye on future
NFTA revives talk of redeveloping former DL&W facility
 
By Robert J. McCarthy  
News Staff Reporter  
 
Updated: August 10, 2010, 0:12 PM  
 
The train shed -- empty and cavernous -- sits hidden along the Buffalo River, behind HSBC Arena and right at the foot of Main Street.
 
Although dwarfed by the huge arena, the former Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Terminal is so big that, in its heyday, it could contain six trains under one roof.
 
Two commissioners of the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority, which now owns the terminal, recently walked through the structure, part of its Metro Rail yard and shops complex, envisioning what "might be."
 
Henry M. Sloma and Peter G. Demakos say the 140,000 square feet of indoor and outdoor space, including the terrace overlooking the Cobblestone District and Buffalo River, could attract waterfront visitors.
 
"It's a beautiful facility with a variety of open spaces," Demakos said. "And it needs to be part of a comprehensive plan for the overall waterfront."
 
Following the collapse of the Bass Pro Shops deal for Canal Side, transit commissioners and staff are asking waterfront planners to take a second look at their 1917 architectural gem. They claim no need to re-create something that "looks old" when the real thing awaits.
 
Now is the time, they add, for the Erie Canal Harbor Development Corp. and others to include the NFTA in their waterfront planning. That has never happened, Sloma said, despite the authority's significant presence on the waterfront.
 
He even suggests the NFTA should have a seat on the harbor corporation's board.
 
"We have always looked for some kind of lead from other development agencies; waiting for a cue," Sloma said. "But it never came."
 
If planners must now return to Square One, Demakos added, they should consider the terminal for some kind of waterfront attraction -- whether it be restaurants, retail, museums or other cultural entity.
 
"We always figured Bass Pro would come," he said. "But now that they have to go back to the drawing board, it should be a bigger picture."
 
Metro Rail trains have been rumbling in and out of the complex since service started in 1984, taking up where the Erie-Lackawanna, the DL&W's successor, left off after it ended service in 1962. But while the former freight house below houses Metro Rail trains, the vast second floor -- with its unique concrete reinforced roof -- offers intriguing development potential, NFTA officials say.
 
They point to similar facilities, such as Union Station in St. Louis or the Reading Terminal Market in Philadelphia, that now offer thriving retail attractions. They say the sights and sounds of a working rail complex combined with the surrounding industrial ambience -- including the sweet smell of cereal baking at adjacent General Mills -- may hold the key to unlocking the Cobblestone District's potential.
 
If the former terminal is developed, NFTA officials say they also envision a Metro Rail station at the complex and possibly a walkway to HSBC Arena.
 
Some waterfront advocates, including Rep. Brian Higgins, D-Buffalo, agree. He has suggested the space as a public market or a museum complex. And he says the complex should now be reconsidered in the vacuum left by Bass Pro.
 
"At the very least, the DL&W's redevelopment potential has been greatly enhanced," Higgins said. "And it's right there in front of us."
 
Coincidentally, the NFTA had granted the Ira G. Ross Aerospace Museum a one-year option on the terminal just four days before Bass Pro's July 30 decision to scuttle nine-year-old plans for a store on the site of the former Memorial Auditorium. The museum proposed the option to attract foundation support and other backing for its effort to find a permanent home for its collection, now housed in HSBC Arena.
 
But Hugh Neeson, the museum's development director, says Bass Pro's exit from the scene puts the museum's plans on hold. It remains interested in using the space in conjunction with other museums or cultural groups, he said, but recognizes that it could be earmarked for a number of uses.
 
"We want to see what new plan takes shape down there," Neeson said. "We hope to be part of the process of offering potential uses for the place.
 
"I just think the ballgame has radically changed," he added. "We can't overplay our hand because no one knows what will come out of new planning."
 
Higgins also envisions the possibility of the aerospace museum in the terminal, with other cultural groups.
 
"The idea is to create an arts and cultural community to benefit one another," Higgins said. "That creates a critical mass, and that in itself has an appeal."
 
The congressman describes the facility's potential as "greatly enhanced" and says that some money earmarked for the waterfront could be redirected to the terminal.
 
Using the terminal has been suggested in the past, but no concrete plans ever were advanced, said Erich Weyant, assistant director of communications for the harbor development corporation.
 
"We're aware of it, but there has been no formal coordination [with NFTA]," he said.
 
Demakos acknowledged the criticism for lack of development on the NFTA's outer harbor property.
 
But he noted that plans recently accelerated rapidly and successfully. The NFTA Boat Harbor is at near capacity, a new greenbelt path skirts the water, and Dug's Dive has grown into an attraction in itself. The NFTA, he said, now has a track record.
 
"Now that Bass Pro is not happening, we need to reopen the plan and look at this as part of the plan," he said.
 
Sloma calls it a "now more than ever" situation.
 
"We need to open a dialogue about completing the plan," he said. "We need to know what other people are doing two blocks away."
 
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Aug 13th, 2010, 10:47am
Henry -  
 
As I claim the bona fides whereby I actually lived in Buffalo for near three years. Gimme a huge break here, yes? Buffalo  
long a fine market for "...just getting started comedians..." as well as old hands at it...
 
Did they forget the part the original and completely magnificent Grand Hall and Waiting Room of the D L & W structure  
demolished ages back? So, now all this excitement over the train sheds? Shame! Shame!
 
I am beyond belief these current day fakers had such high hopes for an emporium stocking fishing and camping gear...  
Oh, yeah, how many new jobs because of the grand "gaming casinos" schemes?
 
Oh, and let me guess. The dedicated folks trying to do positive things with N Y C Central Terminal continue to pass  
the hat, and sponsor bake sales? SIGH! Buffalo never changes, God Bless 'em?
 
.....................Vern.................
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Aug 13th, 2010, 6:08pm
Let's see - the 2006 plan went nowhere. Prior plans went - nowhere. Why do you suppose i find myself thinking "This plan will go nowhere"?
 
Just as i suspect proposals for NYC/MC stations in Buffalo and Detroit will go - nowhere...
 
At least the DID find  successful conversions for the FW&D station in Fort Worth and the Interurban Building in Dallas. And some survival of Union Station in Houston (head-house part of a baseball stadium).
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Feb 16th, 2013, 8:38am
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2013 05:17:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Gary R. Kazin  
Subject: NY - Updated: 02/16/2013, 07:38 AM Railroad site may see new life Higgins wants Termini to develop the location as a tourism draw
 
Updated: 02/16/2013, 07:38 AM
Railroad site may see new life
Higgins wants Termini to develop the location as a tourism draw
BY: Robert McCarthy / News Political Reporter
 
The cavernous space above Metro Rail's shops in the former Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad terminal has a new champion - Rep. Brian Higgins.
 
The Buffalo Democrat wants downtown developer Rocco Termini to tackle the 1917 architectural gem as his next restoration project. And the man behind resurrecting the Hotel @ the Lafayette and other downtown buildings says he's more than intrigued about the potential for a public market at the site - if $10 million to $15 million in government money becomes available.
 
Full article:
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130216/CITYANDREGION/130219372/1002
 
Gary R. Kazin
DL&W Milepost R35.7
Rockaway, New Jersey
 
The Erie Lackawanna Mailing List
http://EL-List.railfan.net/
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Jul 30th, 2013, 12:14pm
Termini’s interest in DL&W Terminal wanes  
 
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130729/CITYANDREGION/130729051/1010
 
Developer Rocco R. Termini’s enthusiasm for rehabilitating the former Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad Terminal has waned in recent months, dampening optimism for a public commercial space at the foot of Main Street.
 
Termini now says he remains interested in the possibilities offered by the cavernous space above the Metro Rail shops owned by the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority. But uncertainty prompts him to slow any approach, he said, despite the recent explosion of construction activity in the area.
 
“I think we’ll wait and see what happens with the Pegula project,” he said, referring to the HarborCenter hotel and ice rink complex championed by Buffalo Sabres owner Terry Pegula. “At this point, there’s not that much interest.”
 
Termini, whose Signature Development Co. spearheaded the redevelopment of the historic Hotel @ Lafayette in downtown Buffalo, was urged by Rep. Brian Higgins to tackle the DL&W Terminal as his next major project. As a result, Termini said in February he envisioned the terminal’s 80,000 square feet of indoor space along with another 60,000 square feet of outdoor patio as an ideal venue for a public market similar to train shed developments at Union Station in St. Louis or the Reading Terminal Market in Philadelphia.
 
He said then, however, that $10&#8239;million to $15&#8239;million in public money would be needed to jump-start development at the site.
 
Higgins also envisioned a mecca for boaters throughout the Great Lakes at the waterfront site. And while both acknowledged at the time that they had reached only the “brainstorming” stage, Higgins was encouraging Termini to use his “experience in adaptive reuse” to explore the idea.
 
More at http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130729/CITYANDREGION/130729051/1010
 
Thanks to Gary Kazin on the EL list for the heads up.
 
Henry
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Aug 1st, 2013, 6:06pm
I predict (sadly) that nothing will happen. Nor will anything happen in Detroit, not within the lifetimes of any person reading this forum at this time.
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Aug 2nd, 2013, 7:04am
on Aug 1st, 2013, 6:06pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I predict (sadly) that nothing will happen. Nor will anything happen in Detroit, not within the lifetimes of any person reading this forum at this time.  

 
Clyde -
 
While a tad gloomy, from my own experience (particularly with Buffalo), your comment likely pragmatic and realistic.  
There's something of a list of various opportunities which have never happened...
 
..........................Vern........................
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Aug 3rd, 2013, 10:20pm
Vern, All - i follow this forum and a couple of others on hysterical reservation. Work on historic buildings is hard and expensive, and about as often as not fails. With railroad structures, it is more often than not a matter of plan after plan after plan with no action, and when work is started it often fails before completion. i don't like that, it saddens me to see history, and especially rail history disappear (when we married in 1974, i was stationed at Fort Hood, and the Santa Fe station in Belton was still intact, if unused. it was a small gem. One day, i drove by to get some photos. Concrete slab is all that was left. it saddened me; many another has gone the same way).
 
Makes me pessimistic. Having some idea of what is involved in rehabbing big buildings, and considering the economic straits many of our older cities are in, a building like Buffalo's or Detroit's makes me doubly pessimistic.
 
Clyde
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Aug 4th, 2013, 7:17am
Clyde - All -  
 
Indeed! We have a more seasoned crowd of readers here. Likely, many have endless stories on theme of reports of  
Big Plans! Big Ideas! No Money! For the most part, few of the proposals are practical for small volunteer groups.
 
..........................Vern.......................
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Mar 30th, 2016, 12:29pm
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:26:35 -0400
From: Josh Stull  
Subject: Buffalo News: "Transit hub, shops would anchor DL&W Terminal in $42 million plan" (rshsdepot)
 
 
*Transit hub, shops would anchor DL&W Terminal in $42 million plan*
 
Canalside hums with all-season activity. New attractions are breathing
life into the Cobblestone District. Now the potential jewel of the Inner
Harbor
- the historic Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad Terminal -
is poised to resurrect as a busy transit hub and commercial center under
a plan the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority finalized Thursday.
 
http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/downtown-waterfront/transit-hub-shops-would-anchor-dlw-terminal-in-42-million-plan-20160325
 
 
Josh Stull
Nicholson, PA
www.nicholsonstation.org
 
=================================
The Railroad Station Historical Society maintains a database of existing
railroad structures at: http://www.rrshs.org
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Mar 30th, 2016, 2:14pm
on Mar 30th, 2016, 12:29pm, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:26:35 -0400
From: Josh Stull  
Subject: Buffalo News: "Transit hub, shops would anchor DL&W Terminal in $42 million plan" (rshsdepot)
 
 
*Transit hub, shops would anchor DL&W Terminal in $42 million plan*
 
Canalside hums with all-season activity. New attractions are breathing
life into the Cobblestone District. Now the potential jewel of the Inner
Harbor
- the historic Delaware, Lackawanna and Western Railroad Terminal -
is poised to resurrect as a busy transit hub and commercial center under
a plan the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority finalized Thursday.
 
http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/downtown-waterfront/transit-hub-shops-would-anchor-dlw-terminal-in-42-million-plan-20160325
 
 
Josh Stull
Nicholson, PA
www.nicholsonstation.org
 
=================================
The Railroad Station Historical Society maintains a database of existing
railroad structures at: http://www.rrshs.org

 
 
I wish them much good fortune. But - $42 million projected? I fear that, somehow, as it goes forward, if it does, price will double and patronage fall by half...
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Mar 30th, 2016, 3:11pm
Henry - Clyde - Lodge Members -
 
So the $42 MM will make a reality of a "...potential jewel...", eh? Fine, old Buffalo long a good source of some truly dark humor.  
An implicit question here? Why was the archaic and lovely true jewel ever torn down, anyway?
 
Timing here is good. FR 1 APR is also "April Fool's Day"! Recall, this writer's personal logs report his ages back Buffalo residence  
of about three years. At the time, NYC Central Terminal still open and operating. LV "Marble Palace" still remained on Main Street.
 
Much of all the sadness here: http://www.forgottenbuffalo.com/experiencethetour.html
 
.......................Bitter From Buffalo?.................Vern..........................
Posted by: Henry Posted on: Apr 9th, 2016, 7:42pm
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2016 19:23:08 -0400
From: Josh Stull  
Subject: The Buffalo News: "New development proposals exemplify the optimism helping rejuvenate the city" (Buffalo DL&W Station)
 
 
The Buffalo News: "New development proposals exemplify the optimism helping
rejuvenate the city" (Buffalo DL&W Station)
 
Buffalo used to be synonymous with stagnation. For decades not much seemed
to change around here except the architect's renderings of the latest pipe
dreams. Now, however, when someone has an idea, the collective reaction is
to look for the shovels in the ground and the cranes in the air.
 
http://www.buffalonews.com/opinion/buffalo-news-editorials/new-development-proposals-exemplify-the-optimism-helping-rejuvenate-the-city-20160408
 
 
Josh Stull
Nicholson, PA
www.nicholsonstation.org
 
 
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