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Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
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   Author  Topic: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.  (Read 749 times)
HwyHaulier
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #20 on: Apr 1st, 2016, 11:29am »
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on Apr 1st, 2016, 10:22am, toptrain wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...So from 1857 to 1873 no photographs were taken of this terminal. At least a few million people can through this terminal during that time period. Impossible ! ...

 
Frank - Lodge Members -
 
Your humble writer must non-concur with conclusion here? To remind the Photography of the day rather awkward and basic,  
and used the glass plate images. Now, we know that Matthew Brady did record myriad views of progress of the War Between  
The States. We may guess he had generous stipends from the 'Feds' to perform the work. Otherwise, camera equipment not  
readily available. Someone had to pay for images, and it was not cheap.
 
More. Any idea of dates when News Papers could print available Photos using the 'half tone' processes? Until widely available,  
the venerable practices of laborious etchings, so to document a scene.
 
So that? In the time window noted, very little use of camera equipment. All the best in your quest for images of the particular  
era. This appears to be a tough challenge? Recall, the very impressive Ansel Adams works did not appear until 1927...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansel_Adams
 
.............................Vern.................................


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #21 on: Apr 7th, 2016, 10:53am »
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Frank - Lodge Members -  
 
Many Thanks for your overview of processes on how endless images could be prepared for printing in newspapers, dailies, and popular journals.  
Of course, in your writer's earlier remarks here, more a focus on how newspapers done.
 
This useful entry on 'Wiki' which reports history and progress of the 'half tone process'. The dates are more into the 1870s - 1880s eras. Agree,  
yes, there were options to get images into print. Took much time and labor, in any instance?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halftone
 
BTW. Hmmmm... It has been a learning process! Didn't know history of 'half tone'...
 
..............................Vern.............................


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toptrain
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #22 on: Apr 20th, 2016, 7:00am »
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*** A GLIMER OF HOPE ***
 Train Shed Cyclopedia # 38 Has info on 2 different depot terminals in Jersey City. Also a plan of a Passenger depot. All in the one issue.
* Passenger Depot Page 409.
* Terminal depot Page 412 to 421.
* Terminal depot Page 431 to 436.
  They are most likely a local station, and a PRR or Eire terminal.  But there is a hope. Anybody out there have train shed # 38.
  If you have it can you post here which depots they are and let us all know.
 frank
* Vern after you preceeding 2 posts. I changed the title to 1st and 2nd JC terminals. The focus of this topic is and will remain mainly the 1st terminal. The 2nd being only important to me, because, just like the first, in a almost total lack of information on these terminals. In all that you have said I wish you would tell us out here when photography started, so I can compare that date to 1834 to 1854, the date replacement of the 1st terminal occurred. I can't understand how the second terminal has no photos of it at all. It was there to the end of the Civil war. Ten's of millions of people passed through these 2 terminals and there is nothing to show of it. The first I can almost understand. The second I can't.
 
V-289


« Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2016, 1:09pm by toptrain » Logged

toptrain
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Henry
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #23 on: Apr 20th, 2016, 10:21am »
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Listed at http://www.ebay.com/itm/Train-Shed-Cyclopedia-38-Buildings-Structures-1893-/391427943503 is the following:
 
Train Shed Cyclopedia #38 Buildings & Structures 1893
 
"Information included in this issue is as follows: Terminal Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ, New York, Lake Erie & Western Railroad Old Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ, Pennsylvania Railroad New Terminal Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ ..."
 
In the "List of illustrations" is:  
 
"Terminal Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ, New York, Lake Erie & Western Railroad, Perspective, Ground-plan, Cross-section
New Terminal Passenger Depot at Jersey City, NJ, Pennsylvania Railroad
Section and End Elevation of Train-shed
Longitudinal Section of Train-shed
Cross-section of Wind Bracing at End of Train-shed
Section of Pair of Trusses, showing Purlins
Section of Pair of Trusses near Foot of Arch
Details of Movable End of Arch
Details of Fixed End of Arch
Plan of Foundations
General Ground-plan of Terminal
Perspective of Traveler used in Erection of Train-shed, Side View
Perspective of Traveller used in Erection of Train-shed ..."
 
I don't think it is what you are looking for.  
 
It is available for $9.99 plus $6.15 shipping at the above URL.
 
Henry


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toptrain
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
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« Reply #24 on: May 4th, 2016, 11:18am »
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Thanks again Henry !  
 
 
 In reply 11,  Feb 21 2016 I added a important edit and a copy of 2 pages of info from Hills to the Hudson to clarify what was done.
 Here is a copy of just the edit.  
 
* I mentioned nut and bolts information looked for. Measurements of the footprint of the terminal, entire structure. Height of the terminal all locations.  Architectural measurements . complete plains of the building. These are the things I dont now. I also never found any reference to dates when things happened on this terminal.  
 
* (Edit addition 5-4-16) * Now taking the information on the block size out of paragraph 2, page 179, the block is 400 feet by 200 feet. This is the block purchased by the P&HRR. Taking visual note of the fact that the lot layout on this block, and the next block south where the NJRR&TCo. 1st terminal is the same and the block size the same. We now have a measurement to start with. Take the 200' length on the block along Hudson street. Note the there are 8 evenly spaced lots making up this 200 foot distance with each being a common 25 feet wide. Now the East West distance of 400 feet needs to be mathematically dissected.  Not a very hard thing to do. Each block is made up of 32 lots. Each lot is 25 feet wide and 100 feet deep. It works out perfectly. I now can work out the footprint of the train shed and head-house of this first railroad terminal of the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company. Yes with the information aviable no height measurements are aviable. Trust in the artist's rendition of the building and some more math will give us a average idea of the height of this train shed and its head-house.  
* Are there any draftsmen, mathematicians, or 3D person out there reading this who would like to contribute here and come up with a block drawing with building footprint measurements applied to the drawing. Then using the 1848 sketch showing the west end of the train shed with its three doors, come up with the height of the side walls and peak of the train shed.  
frank                


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« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2016, 9:34am by toptrain » Logged

toptrain
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
  b_opening_note_-_Copy.jpg - 111369 Bytes
« Reply #25 on: May 10th, 2016, 4:11pm »
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What has been going on.
 *In my search for information on the New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company being disappointed is a regular occurrence. I seem to always be picking the wrong railway projects to get interested in.  This railroad the NJRR&TCo. is the third to be granted a charter by the State of New Jersey, received theirs  on  March 7th 1832. The 1830 charter granted to the Camden and Amboy being the first, and the second going to the Patterson and Hudson River railroad on Jan.- 21- 1831. My reason for picking this railroad is because it was the first one to build a terminal on the Hudson River in New Jersey.  
* The first thing I found out about this railroads terminal was at the Jersey City Public Library in the book "From the Hills to the Hudson" by Walter A. Lucas, a book published in 1944. A map of a 1844 view of Powles Hook on p-178 and 2 smaller than postcard views of the terminal on Page 179. The top view being of the terminal from the south-west corner of Montgomery and Greens Streets. This is a 1834 view of the listed as completed terminal. The bottom view is a 848 view taken from the north-west corner of Greene and Mercer streets. The top being a poor and incomplete drawing. The bottom one drawn from a low angle, done quickly with the most basic of detail. At the Library on the wall was a 1848 map of Jersey City. In the lower right corner was a drawing of the Jersey City waterfront with tucked in its corner, a view of most of the east wall on Hudson Street. A third terminal view has been added.  
* In the next book I found out about was "From Indian Trails to Iron Horse" "Travel and transportation in New Jersey 1620-1860", by Wheaton J. Lane. Published in 1838. Now this book I was told would answer some of my questions. Being I was looking for info on the buildings of the New Jersey Railroad in Jersey City. Information here was on the problems building the railroad. What was here was the same as I found to be in the book "From the Hills to the Hudson". As to views or information on the terminal or engine facilities there was none.  
* The next book I hoped would provide me information was " Railroads in New Jersey"," The Formative Years", by John T. Cunningham. Published in 1997. The index listed 19 places where the info on the NJRR could be found. There is no list on illustrations. This big book with 328 pages has to have something for me! Well it almost didn't. Though I was underwhelmed, and there was nothing new, on page 61 in a yellow info box a statement is made, " The best material ever assembled on the NJRR&TC0. Appears in Volume 88 (1957), by " the Railway and locomotive Historical Society. Yep a bulletin of the R&LHS. After 3 expensive book gave me little I have now a chance to spend more on what?
*  Well I got the Bulletin #88.It has nothing new for me in it. Well with the 3 drawings and tax map info i have something.
*  Well folks. Let's not get excited but another book has been found. " Early American Railroads" by Franz Anton Ritter. Published in 1848. Right at the time of the first terminal. That is 125 years between publications.
*Next is a few lines from the introduction of that book. This one a translated copy released in the 1990's.
v-380


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« Last Edit: May 11th, 2016, 4:39pm by toptrain » Logged

toptrain
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ClydeDET
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #26 on: May 12th, 2016, 7:24pm »
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Umm - the German author (and engineer) cited was NOT named "Ritter". His family name was von Gerstner. Ritter was a hereditary  title and the proper usage would be Ritter von Gerstner, or in English "The Knight von Gerstner").
 
Sounds like a book I might ought to run a copy of down. In English, not German. MY German is NOT adequate for that sort of publication. Really was, at its best, adequate for a newspaper or a military frag order. And that was when I was using that language in the long ago.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #27 on: May 13th, 2016, 9:47pm »
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on May 13th, 2016, 6:58pm, toptrain wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Well I have been told that by the people at Rutgers University. The first time I called up that book in a search on line the name in the shorter version appeared. Every time I search it using the short version it comes up.  
** Good luck to you for the book goes from $400 + dollars like new, to a used one of $85. The German one from 1840 is free online. Here in New Jersey at Rutgers university are 2 copies one each in 2 of their different Librarys.
 frank

 
The Rutgers people said "Ritter" was his surname? Hmm - I met at least two Germans while I was over there who were "Johann Ritter von something" They seemed to think the surname was "von Something". I just assumed they knew...
 
As to the price, be used or not obtained. $400+ is past my book budget. $85 requires a bit of thought, but could be handled.


« Last Edit: May 13th, 2016, 9:48pm by ClydeDET » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #28 on: May 15th, 2016, 5:35pm »
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on May 14th, 2016, 11:24am, toptrain wrote:       (Click here for original message)
My last post was in response to your info. The Rutgers people agreed with you. I was just saying to search on line all I used was the shorter version.
 frank

 
Ah, sorry I didn't understand.My German is pretty weak these days, from long disuse, over 40 years, but some still some sticks and I get the odd refresher from reading military history of the barbaric wars of the last century in Europe.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #29 on: May 19th, 2016, 4:40pm »
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on May 15th, 2016, 8:24pm, toptrain wrote:       (Click here for original message)
* Well Clyde, I guess that your Barbaric wars of the last century would be WW1 and WW2. The outright butchery of WW1 all because ONE man was killed. Then the German extermination of Millions of Jewish, Russians, other Europeans murdered by the wonderful toy making German people. Then I know what you are talking about.  
* Getting back to current events, my dilemma is that I wasn't alive since 1830, and not able to leave some info to myself on the 1st terminal in Jersey City. Don't know how you could build one and not leave info on it. Have you ever searched the Library of Congress? I have been very ineffectual in all my attempts. Maybe I should just write my Congressman and inform him of my Dilemma. He might be able to help me.
 frank

 
Yes, those. nd the Balkan Wars just prior to War One and Korea, and Vietnam (where I spent some time, dammit).
 
Actually, for all that people claim War One was caused by the murder of one man, it wasn't. That event can perhaps be claimed as the match that lit the fuze to the powder magazine, it was probably inevitable within 6-12 months, as the Austro-Hungarians needed and wanted and earnestly sought a war there, Serbia the min target for reasons that involved internal socio-political and military reasons. Damp fools, but there you are when you have a very ramshackle and unworkable Empire.


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toptrain
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #30 on: Jun 17th, 2016, 5:32am »
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Well Clyde I was able to get a preview of the Franz Anton's book found the info on the NJRR&TC to have nothing additional. For you both volumes are aviable free in Google free E-books but in the original German language.  
* Preview link; Volume 1 no info from Volume 2. nothing here for me. *     https://books.google.com/books?id=STMY_aXMcZcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Early+American+Railroads,+by+Franz+Anton+Ritter.&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjI28r0zMvMAhVCnBoKHQUFAvcQuwUIKTAA#v=onepage&q=Early%20American%20Railroads%2C%20by%20Franz%20Anton%20Ritter.&f=false
 
* Early American Railroads: Franz Anton Ritter von Gerstner's 'Die innern Communicationen'1842-1843
 
Franz von Gerstner; Editor-Frederick Gamst; Translator-David Diephouse; Translator-John Decker
•      Book condition: Used:Good
•      ISBN: 0804724237 / 9780804724234
•      
Stanford University Press, 1997-07-01. Hardcover. Used:Good. Buy with confidence. Excellent Customer Service & Return policy. Ships Fast. Expedite Shipping Available.  
Both v1 and 2 saved to documents in German.
 
NJRR&TCo. Starts page 91 in v-2
 
** The 2 volumes in German found in Google books;
 
Volume 1
https://books.google.com/books?id=aGpAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PR5&dq=Die+Innern+Communicationen+der+Vereinigten+Staaten+von+Nordamerica&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiilP2A567NAhWLdz4KHRMSCi4Q6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=Die%20Innern%20Communicationen%20der%20Vereinigten%20Staaten%20von%20Nordamerica&f=false
 
Volume 2
https://books.google.com/books?id=PgZUAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA333&dq=Die+Innern+Communicationen+der+Vereinigten+Staaten+von+Nordamerica&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiilP2A567NAhWLdz4KHRMSCi4QuwUILDAB#v=onepage&q=Die%20Innern%20Communicationen%20der%20Vereinigten%20Staaten%20von%20Nordamerica&f=false
 
 
Also Vern, in reply 22 I posted a edit with a question for you.


« Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2016, 1:14pm by toptrain » Logged

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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #31 on: Jun 19th, 2016, 7:00pm »
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Information for the first terminal of the  " The New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company",  NJR&TCo.,
 
Main reference books; with abbreviations used  in  reference:                                                                                       HtoH,  "From the Hills to the Hudson" , By Walter Arndt Lucas. 1944.                                                                                                    ITtoIH,  "From Indian Trail to Iron Horse", Wheaton J. Lane, 1939.                                                                                                         RinNJ, "Railroads in New Jersey", John T. Cunningham, 1997.                                                                                                           B-88, "The Railway and Locomotive Historical Society", Bulletin Number 88, May 1953 Article titled " The New Jersey Railroad and Transportation Company", by Leslie E. Freeman.
 
Dates;                                                                                                                                                                                                                             March 7 1832, Chartered for NJR&TCo. Issued. (B-88, P-109.)  
 
November 1832. Contractors began to chip away at the ridge. The Bergen Hill Cut was begun. (RinNJ, P-60.)
 
Nov 30 1833, initial passengers leave Jersey City by stage coach over Bergen Hill to the tracks to Newark.                 (RinNJ, p-52.)
 
October 20 1834 temporary track opens over Bergen Hill to Ferry, for both the NJR&TCo, and P&HRR. A terminal is opened. It is a 3 track enclosed train shed. A useful and substantial structure for its time. (  HtoH, P-133. )
 
1834, NJR&TCo. View from south-west of Terminal in Jersey City opened.( HtoH, P-179.) Drawing of terminal on same page. Info; Train shed only, no head house yet.  
 
1844, Map of Jersey City, Powles Hook shows footprint of complete terminal train shed, with head house.( HtoH, P-178.)
 
1844, map footprint view of NJR&TCo terminal (P-17. 1848 drawing of Terminal with head house viewed from the north-west.( HtoH P-179.) This view is a wood cutting from Appleton Railroad and Steam Boat Companion of 1848. A large copy of the same North-West view of the terminal is in ( RinNJ, P-59.)
 
1850 mid century. No specific date is given. The Jersey City terminal, that a dark gloomy place was remolded. New skylights and windows were placed to improve lighting and ventilation. The south side of the original building was reconstructed to provide a enlarged freight shed. The terminal was now said to be as neat and convenient as any railroad depot in the East. (B-88, P-139.)
 
Late Fall 1853. Plains were immediately drawn up to extend the 1st terminals and ferry facilities. ( B-88, P-142.)  
 
1862. A photo of the first through mail train of the NJR&TCo. New York to Philadelphia. (B-88 P-between 144 and 145.)
 
Jan 23 1838, A view of the Bergen Hill cut when completed with the first train through entering the Cut.  Six railroads used this cut to get to the Hudson. The NJR&TCo., P&HR, NY&E (Erie), M&E, CRRofNJ, The Northern Railroad, and the Hackensack & New York. (RinNJ P-60.)
[left][/left]


« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2016, 11:14am by toptrain » Logged

toptrain
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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #32 on: Jul 13th, 2016, 9:29am »
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*Though after this the NJRR brought the born Englishman, then  Brooklynman, then Jerseyman with the name, Job Male in as there man for designer and builder for the railroad, Their 1st Chief Construction Superintendent, the times really changed. He was a man of his time. He earned money the hard way. He worked and earned it.  As a architect, he was the man in the right place at the right time. From 1845 to 1860 he designed and built almost everything along the Jersey City shore line. The Cunard line terminal, all the ferry slips, The 1857 2nd terminal for the NJRR, The Two Tower Terminal. All the freight facilities of the NJRR. Quite a man. A interesting time in Jersey City. He was known in Plainfield New Jersey as  " Plainfield's Grand Old Man ".
 
Frank
 
Links to Job Male sites;
 
http://www.digplanet.com/wiki/Job_Male
http://www.plainfieldlibrary.info/Departments/LH/LH_founders.html#male


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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #33 on: Nov 29th, 2016, 11:08am »
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I did some good research here only to get to a dead end. I do feel that I will build this first terminal. Just that there will be some freelancing in the design because their is no info on it other than the scale footprint of the building from a map, and the it kind of looks like this views, that are aviable. At least no one can say mine is wrong once done. For the head house I will go with the better detailed drawing on the 1848 map. For the train shed part and the rear of the head house a combination of the other three views will be done. Contradictory people wont have anything to support a not correct comment.  
 I am still open to any new info that anyone has and would like to share. Until then, I must be right.  
frank,


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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
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« Reply #34 on: Dec 1st, 2016, 9:19am »
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I have redone my drawing of the first terminal in New Jersey on the Hudson River. The first was a drawing showing a angular view showing two of the walls. This one is just a east wall view of the front of the terminal. This is what the terminal looked like around 1840.
 frank


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« Last Edit: Dec 1st, 2016, 9:25am by toptrain » Logged

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Re: Jersey City, Ist and 2nd terminal, NJRR, opened 1834.
 
« Reply #35 on: Jul 15th, 2017, 6:10pm »
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The first Railroad terminal in Jersey city.
•  
• ***First about the last post’s drawing and the architecture of this station.  
• **Why I drew it the way I did.  
• * The footprint of the terminal on both the 1844 and 1848 maps appear to be the same in overall size. The 1844 doesn’t show the column location as does the 1848. The north and south walls of the head house are not symmetrical in that the north wall ends behind the second column from the north. The south wall is shown only going 1/3 of the distance between the south 2nd and 3rd columns. No one builds a lopsided building. So my drawing does take advantage of the lack of information and use what can be seen. The pitch of the roof of the head house is less than that on the trainshed, and second story windows do show on the head house. A 9 column colonnade across the buildings front is shown, and 5 along the sides. There are 17 columns. These columns support a facade that offers a covered walkway on three sides of the headhouse. No one designs a structure like this placing the doors when viewed from the front behind columns. Because they are decorative, and not meant to be hidden. The front wall has 6 spaces between columns. The 2 double doors I have chosen fit nicely into the front view.  
• * Keeping with these guide lines, and the sparse information available on this 1st terminal, my drawing add a little something to that information.
•  frank


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