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PRR position lights today
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   Author  Topic: PRR position lights today  (Read 1143 times)
HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3448
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #40 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 12:30pm »
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SM -  
 
Many Thanks! You are getting a good handle on first dates of the innovations!
E. P. Alexander acknowledged as authoritative...
 
........................Vern.......................


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Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #41 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 12:36pm »
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Vern....
 
You are welcome!
 
Hey, I try to please my loyal customers.....<G>
 
"SM"


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #42 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 12:46pm »
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Bettsville, Ohio (undated photo); note signal on left....it appears to be angled away from the ROW.
 
Possibly a reminder of a severed, removed crossing?
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-bell-bva.jpg


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #43 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 12:52pm »
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Ex-B&O signal at Dayton, Ohio (2001).....
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-sig.ags.jpg


« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 12:53pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3448
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #44 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 1:04pm »
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on Dec 10th, 2011, 12:46pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Bettsville, Ohio (undated photo); note signal on left....it appears to be angled away from the ROW.
 
Possibly a reminder of a severed, removed crossing?
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-bell-bva.jpg

SM -  
 
Not necessarily! It possibly hints at changes in the particular "Control Block" area governed. So that the installed signal  
simply brought around a quarter turn (ninety degrees) so as not to display spurious aspects to trains...
 
........................Vern.................


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Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #45 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 3:17pm »
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on Dec 10th, 2011, 1:04pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

SM -  
 
Not necessarily! It possibly hints at changes in the particular "Control Block" area governed. So that the installed signal  
simply brought around a quarter turn (ninety degrees) so as not to display spurious aspects to trains...
 
........................Vern.................

 
Vern.....
 
Ahh, another distinct possibility, one that I had not considered!
 
Thanks!
 
"SM"


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #46 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 3:43pm »
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All:
 
Just dug through my files, and did some quick research, via an H&M/PATH "history" website.
 
Unfortnately, none of the many rare views can be posted as a seperate link, so, all I can do is (short of posting page) is to relate what I found.....
 
The SUMMIT AVENUE H&M station ("JOURNAL SQUARE", by the 1920's) opened in 1912, at the same time that the PRR/H&M "joint service" to Newark began.
 
This long-gone station, which I remember clearly from my childhood days, was torn down in the early 70's, to make way for the present PATH TRANSPORTATION CENTER.
 
The earliest postcard views of this station (and adjacent PRR freight/passenger tracks) shows only semaphores.
 
A 1930's view shows that the semaphores are gone, and position lights are in place.
 
Interestingly, during the "joint service" days, westbound H&M/PATH motormen utilized two sets of signals, once out of the tunnels, east of JSQ.
 
H&M motormen on non "joint service" trains from HUDSON TERMINAL and 33rd ST. used conventional (color) rapid transit-style signals.
 
However, motormen on "joint service" trains bound for Newark utilized the PRR position light signals (recall that the motormen on this line were requiredto pass a PRR book-of-rules examination, prior to the end of the "joint service" operation in 1967).
 
This practice, of course, also was used for eastbound traffic.
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 5:49pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #47 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 3:55pm »
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Interesting PRR PL page, with some interesting history.
 
Vern......
 
Earlier, via phone, you were inquiring about just how long PRR semaphores were being used.
 
According to this page, by the late 1940's, 97% of the PRR's main and secondary lines were utilizing PL's.....
 
"SM"
 
http://www.prrths.com/Philadelphia%20Chapter/Signals/PRR_Signals.html


« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 3:57pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #48 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 4:23pm »
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An excellent, detailed page on the ex-PRR "ZOO" Tower, perhaps the most famous of all "flying junctions"
 
As you might expect, today, "ZOO" is but a mere shadow of its former self.
 
A few good photos on this page, showing PL's.....
 
http://www.signalbox.org/overseas/usa/zoo.htm


« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 4:25pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3448
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #49 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 4:42pm »
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SM -  
 
Hardly needs saying, I guess, but SIGNALS a deadly serious business! There is no room for error!
 
An odd, but true: http://www.prrths.com/Philadelphia%20Chapter/Signals/PRR_Signals.html  
See the somewhat flexible Rule 291 in handling of heavy trains...
 
It also explains the signal, somewhere in Ohio, set cross wise. Consider, what a train crew to do if  
they blew past a completely dark mast?
 
.........................Vern.......................


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #50 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 5:54pm »
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Vern.....
 
Agreed!
 
NO WONDER signals have rightly been called "the eyes of the railroad"!
 
Old-time PRR rulebooks, for example, clearly show that this was NOT child's play, by ANY means!
 
This was DEAD-ON serious business!
 
Earlier this afternoon, I got to pondering why the DL&W never adopted the PL practice......especially given the fact that the legendary road was, indeed, quite adept at innovations!
 
I have 1950's PRR rulebook somewhere buried in the archives....I have to see if I can dig it out.....wish me luck!<G>
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 5:55pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #51 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 6:08pm »
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All:
 
Surely by Divine Intervention, I was able to locate the aforementioned PRR rulebook!
 
Who sez miracles are a thing of the past?<G>
 
Book was effective 10/28/56, and contains many revisions, which were cut out and and affixed over the old rules.
 
Needless to say, a number of pages are dedicated to signals, both text and diagrams.
 
The section headed "CAB SIGNAL RULES" is indeed a study unto itself, again showing that this was NOT a job for the faint of heart!
 
Far too much to go into detail here; let it suffice that a QUICK and NIMBLE mind was required for a job as a Pennsy man, back in the day!
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 6:09pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #52 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 6:17pm »
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A "modeling" page worth a look, showing PRR/B&O/N&W PL's.....
 
http://www.integratedsignalsystems.com/signals/RRSpecific.htm


« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 6:22pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #53 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 8:15pm »
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Vern......
 
Earlier, you had inquired as to seeing if I could find anything in my 1956 PRR rulebook concerning what a crew should do when encountering a dead signal at a crossing.
 
Could not find anything "right on the mark", but, here is what I did find:
 
RULE #620:
 
"........if a signal fails to work properly its operation must be discontinued, and, until repaired, the signal is to be secured so as to display its most restrictive aspect......"
 
Also.....
 
RULE #27:
 
".......a signal imperfectly displayed or the absence of a signal at a place where a signal is usually shown, must be regarded as the most restrictive indication that can be given by that signal, except when the day indication is plainly seen, or when sufficient lights in a position light signal are displayed to determine the indication of the signal it will govern......."
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2011, 10:50am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #54 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 8:31pm »
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All:
 
The following I thought might be of interest, from "FIRING ON THE PENNSY" (by Paul C. Dietz), a fascinating "journal" of a fellow who fired on the PRR, from 1943 through 1947.
 
This little book is a truly wonderful, nostalgic, and exciting diary of "life on the rails", long, long ago.
 
See if the following doesn't raise an eyebrow.....<G>
 
"......my engineman is Jim Campbell, for whom I have fired several times. He is very easy to get along with, and I like the way he runs an engine. Jim is working out his last year before retirement......."
 
".......The first time I fired for him, he confided to me that his eyesight was failing. He said that he made it a rule that his firemen verify all signals when he called them........"
 
"......If a signal was clear, Jim would call out 'CLEAR!' and, after the fireman verified the signal, he would respond with 'CLEAR!', and so on with the approach signal and the stop and go......."
 
".......Sometimes there was so much noise in the cab that hearing was difficult, so we used easy-to-read visual signals in addition to calling them, holding up one finger for clear, two fingers for approach, and three for stop and go......."
 
NOT for the faint-hearted fellow, surely!
 
Talk about TEAMWORK, though!
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2011, 12:46am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #55 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 10:28pm »
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Some interesting information regarding PRR signal bridges, during the pre-PL, semaphore era.......
 
A standard truss design bridge was introduced on the PRR in 1902.
 
The first were used on the NY Division (to the Exchange Place ferry terminal at Jersey City); later, these bridges could also be found elsewhere, east of Pittsburgh.
 
Pipes on the bridge supports carried compressed air, which was carried to the signal mechanisms.
 
Originally, all signals were still of the lower-quadrant automatic type, and gave three indications per signal mast with two blades.
 
Early on, telephones were installed on these bridges to provide train crews with quick communication to the nearest interlocking tower*.
 
*Source:
 
"PENNSY STEAM AND SEMAPHORES", by Fred Westing


« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 10:29pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #56 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 10:37pm »
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From the aforementioned "PENNSY STEAM AND SEMAPHORES".....
 
"......the Pennsy experimented with upper quadrant signals in 1907, and the newly-electrified (1910) line between Manhattan Transfer and Sunnyside Yards, used them exclusively. In the Hudson River tubes and Penn Station itself, color light signals prevailed, as did a few special signals at Manhattan Transfer......"
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Dec 10th, 2011, 10:39pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #57 on: Dec 10th, 2011, 10:51pm »
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"SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS FOR SIGNALS" (PRR CLEVELAND DIVISION, 1949)......
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-tt12-p47.gif
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-tt12-p49.gif


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3448
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #58 on: Dec 11th, 2011, 10:25am »
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on Dec 10th, 2011, 8:15pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...Earlier, you had inquired as to seeing if I could find anything in my 1956 PRR rulebook concerning what a crew should do when encountering a dead signal at a crossing...
 
RULE #27:
 
".......a signal imperfectly displayed or the absence of asignal at a place where a signal is usually shown, must be regarded as the most restrictive indication that can be  
given by that signal, except when the day indication is plainly seen, or when sufficient lights in a position light signal are displayed to determine the indication of the signal  
it will govern......."  

SM -  
 
With this one, should it state, RULE #627? The language about as explicit as one can expect! An unexplained "dark" signal read as a  
"most restrictive" indication. ("STOP and call the Office!")
 
BTW. Again we refer back to the signal, positioned a quarter turn out of plain view. I'm a bit puzzled in use of "crossing"? The particular  
signal had nothing to do with a possible and immediate highway crossing.  
 
In my conjecture, an estimation the governing Signal Control Block had been lengthened, and incorporated at least one other, earlier  
Control Block. It could have happened account, say, loss of a siding leading into a shipper.
 
Turning the existing (abandoned) Signal Head from plain view an unspoken order it could be safely ignored...
 
.....................Vern.................


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Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: PRR position lights today
 
« Reply #59 on: Dec 11th, 2011, 10:49am »
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Vern.....
 
Double checked '56 rulebook, and the aforementioned rule is indeed #27; in fact, on page 90, the last entry "printed as issued" rule is Rule #625.
 
The rule following had been covered over with a new, updated ruling (dealing with interlocking signals; Rule #629)
 
Note how it jumps from Rule #625 to #629!
 
Following page (91), begins with Rule #637 (note the gap between Rule #'s)
 
This rule deals with shunt-track circuts and interlocking limits......
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Dec 11th, 2011, 10:52am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
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