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Railroad window glass
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   Author  Topic: Railroad window glass  (Read 180 times)
George_Harris
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Posts: 3833
Railroad window glass
 
« on: Jun 15th, 2015, 2:07pm »
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Here is an item i saw on Trainorders that does not make sense.  This is given as happening on the New Mexico Rail Runner.  The Friday in question would be June 12, 2015:
Quote:
A 12-year old was taken into custody by Bureau of Indian Affairs officers after shooting the cab-car engineer's window 6:30 Friday evening. The Rail Runner incident happened at the Kewa (Santo Domingo) station. Only the outer pane shattered and the engineer   was not injured. Originally the gun was said to be a rifle but later it was identified as a BB-gun. Federal charges are pending.
 
(Note: Differing reports have the engineer in the cab car heading north, or in the engine heading south. Different stations; different reports.)
 
http://krqe.com/2015/06/12/12-year-old-shoots-at-rail-runner/  
http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3825191.shtml?cat=500#.VXy6mxhOKrU  
http://koat.com/news/nm-rail-runner-12yearold-boy-shot-at-train-with-bb-gun/33567830

I have not yet opened the links, however, the FRA glazing requirements can be summed up to say that the window will not break when hit be a bb gun, or something with more firepower than that, either.  That is why I say something does not make sense here.  Either they got the gun involved way wrong or there was at most a chip in the glass.  I do not intend to give a "how big a gun you should carry if you want to shoot out train windows" lesson, but the strength requirements and response of the window glazing to being struck by projectiles information can be found in the CFR.  It is not easy and most foreign equipment as comes out of the box does not qualify.
   
 
 


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ClydeDET
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #1 on: Jun 15th, 2015, 4:01pm »
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There seems to be one picture that MAY be of the window that was hit. If so, looks like it may have been made out of the current tempered glass as found in cars - completely crazed and shattered into about a million little cubes, held in place by the layer of plastic between the out and inner pane.
 
I know FRA-compliant train window glazing is pretty resistant to penetration and actually pretty resistant to breaking. I question whether a BB-gun would do it, but some of the better pellet guns would. Or a small-bore (as in .22 rim-fire) should. Will be (if it comes out) be interesting to see just what the damage was, to which window, and what the instrument of destruction was.
 
Read all three links and looks like it was on a Rez so BIA or Pueblo (San Idelfonso) cops, Homeland Security, Feebs and the US Attorney will be doing the honors. Kid will pretty certainly get his paw slapped pretty hard, at least. At 12, unlikely to go to the joint, even the juvenile joint.
 
PS - suggests that there may actually be some point in FRA-compliant glazing.


« Last Edit: Jun 15th, 2015, 4:02pm by ClydeDET » Logged
HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3448
Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #2 on: Jun 16th, 2015, 9:39am »
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George - Clyde - Lodge Members -
 
Do recall in the recent North Philadelphia disaster, there had been three trains past the point in the brief 'time window' of events...
 
A passing AMTK schedule took damage to a coach window. Have not seen any follow up on what that all about. As your writer  
is not a card holding member of a Philly Boosters Club, just to say the stretch of line above Philly to Trenton has a reputation  
and history. It isn't good. (Expression, "war zone"?)...
 
.............................Vern......................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #3 on: Jun 16th, 2015, 4:22pm »
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Apparently the windshield of the loco at north Philly was damaged, but they are sure it wasn't shot. Expect (if it didn't happen in the wreck) it was hit by a rock or brick flung by some fine, up-standing young lad. And i imagine the other trains that reported being hit by something suffered the same. Rock or brick rather than gun.
 
EDIT - looked up the FRA standards (CFR Title 49 → Subtitle B → Chapter II → Part 223).  Glazing is supposed to NOT be penetrated by a cinder block weighing 24 pounds at 44 fps or a 40 grain .22 LR slug at 960 fps (windshields) or the same, except the cinder block impact velocity is reduced to 12 fps for side glass (including passenger cars). Folks those are NOT onerous and people (crew, passengers0 would be wide open to death or injury if somebody opened up on them with a 9mm. Or about any center-fire rifle.


« Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2015, 7:10pm by ClydeDET » Logged
Les_Shepherd
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Posts: 425
Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #4 on: Jul 18th, 2015, 7:51am »
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This is an interesting topic. Thinking about window glass does not often come to the fore in ones thoughts.
 
Local experience is to protect locomotive crew/drivers from projectiles thrown off of overbridges. I am not sure of the glass in the windscreens; I believe them to be of the laminated variety.
 
Certainly in Sydney, passenger cars have been using laminated glass for over 30 years. They seem to be impossible to break. They do have 2 downsides.  
After a decade or so of going through car washing units the outsides become scratched to the point where they are difficult to see out of.
The inside is subject to vandalism. Usually on late night, lightly patronised services they scratch their graffiti into the windows. It all looks terrible.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #5 on: Jul 18th, 2015, 5:05pm »
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That is sad hearing, Les. I have noticed metal grills over windshields in some photos I've seen of locomotives assigned to some vandal-prone areas - keep those bricks and cinder-blocks as such away from the glass, eh?

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George_Harris
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #6 on: Jul 19th, 2015, 2:57am »
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Les,  I suspect that the side window stuff you are talking about is a polycarbonate rather than a safety glass.  That stuff is, as you say, near impossible to break, but it gets cloudy over time from UV light and will scratch.  Being as Australia is closer to the equator than the US the clouding up would happen faster there than here.  By 30 years it should be approaching near impossible to see through, but then I do not know what you can get out of various formulations.  I know about as much about plastics and such as my 2 year old grandchild.  
 


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ClydeDET
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #7 on: Jul 19th, 2015, 7:30pm »
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Polycarbonate is softer than glass, but MUCH more impact resistant (my spectacles have had polycarbonate lenses for years - and they will stop things like powder and brass from a blown case, and if you doubt that, i have some lenses with bits imbedded in them). But if exposed to UV long enough it degrades and will lose a lot of resistance.

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HwyHaulier
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #8 on: Jul 20th, 2015, 10:18am »
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George - Clyde - Lodge Members -
 
Seems to me the glazing product from DuPont ages back. IIRC, promoted as LEXAN...
 
......................FWIW.................Vern......................


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George_Harris
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #9 on: Jul 20th, 2015, 2:15pm »
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Yes, Lexan.  I think you are correct.
 
Clyde:  As you say, not overly onerous.  Usually I have avoided giving any specifics, but don/t think it makes any difference here.  Plus, the jackass that shot up things in Chattanooga had supposedly graduated as a Civil Engineer, so presumably he should have had a level of literacy to be able to find out this sort of stuff if he wanted.  However, as a Civil Engineer, too many of those that I have run across from that part of the world seemed to have found their degree in a Crackerjack box.  (Me: BSCE Tennessee Tech, 1968.  My engineering license just celebrated it 40th birthday.  State of Virginia, since I was working on WMATA at the time.)  After a working lifetime I am well convinced that you get your best education in a technical field from one of the Southern states technically oriented universities.


« Last Edit: Jul 20th, 2015, 2:27pm by George_Harris » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #10 on: Jul 20th, 2015, 3:59pm »
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on Jul 20th, 2015, 2:15pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Yes, Lexan.  I think you are correct.
 
Clyde:  As you say, not overly onerous.  Usually I have avoided giving any specifics, but don/t think it makes any difference here.  Plus, the jackass that shot up things in Chattanooga had supposedly graduated as a Civil Engineer, so presumably he should have had a level of literacy to be able to find out this sort of stuff if he wanted.  However, as a Civil Engineer, too many of those that I have run across from that part of the world seemed to have found their degree in a Crackerjack box.  (Me: BSCE Tennessee Tech, 1968.  My engineering license just celebrated it 40th birthday.  State of Virginia, since I was working on WMATA at the time.)  After a working lifetime I am well convinced that you get your best education in a technical field from one of the Southern states technically oriented universities.

 
Yes, probably so. At least if you are actually going to use that degree for something besides wall-paper. Texas A&M has turned out a lot of good, practical engineers.


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Les_Shepherd
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #11 on: Jul 20th, 2015, 9:56pm »
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I do not know what the outside laminate is but it does work.
 
UV is always an issue. It should be remembered that Sydney is at about the same latitude as Monterey or Charleston SC and Brisbane  about the same as Florida.
 
One series of carsets has recently been given a complete overhaul and new windows appear to have been fitted throughout. As an aside, the flourescent lights have been replaced with LCD tubes. The oldest of the suburban carsets were designed in the UK and the windows are totally inappropriate for the Sydney climate. I suspect that UV has had a major bearing on the opaqueness of much of the window glass which can only be replaced at high cost.
 
The issue of projectiles thrown from bridges etc. This has seen 12ft heavy wire mesh fences erected on most overbridges; both over rail lines and motorways. While safety has to be the first concern this is an annoyance to railfans who have lost many good viewing and photographing vantage points.


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George_Harris
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #12 on: Jul 22nd, 2015, 3:45pm »
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on Jul 20th, 2015, 9:56pm, Les_Shepherd wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I do not know what the outside laminate is but it does work.
 
UV is always an issue. It should be remembered that Sydney is at about the same latitude as Monterey or Charleston SC and Brisbane  about the same as Florida.

Yes, and those involved in the Miami Metro that came from the US northeast got a few surprises with the difference in life expectancy of such things as conductor rail coverboard due to differences in UV, salt air, and a few other things due to the few degrees change in lattitude, average temperatures and salinity of atmosphere.
 
Quite a few years ago the Railway Gazette published an article titled "The Pitfalls of Tropical Metros"  Most of the things in it should have been blindingly obvious to anyone who knew how to mount their Engineering License on the wall right side up, be apparantly were missed.  Among them:
Increased ground temperature requiring significantly larger ventilation capacity, as apparantly a lot of heat from motors and braking is absorbed by the ground in more northerly climes.
Greater population density and hence people density on the vehicles also requiring greater ventilation and air conditioning capacity.
Likewise population density and resultant high ridership requiring greater doorway, passageway, escalator and stair capacity
Etc.
 
Oh, by the way, putting any of Miami's system under ground could be summed up as, NO WAY.  It would have to be bolted down to keep from floating out of the gournd.  (If New Orleans ever builds a Metro, nothing could reasonably be placed underground there, either.
 
Quote:
The issue of projectiles thrown from bridges etc. This has seen 12ft heavy wire mesh fences erected on most overbridges; both over rail lines and motorways. While safety has to be the first concern this is an annoyance to railfans who have lost many good viewing and photographing vantage points.

Likewise in the US.
See standards for overpasses in the following:
Look on page 46 and 49 of the following:
BNSF Railway - Union Pacific Railroad
Guidelines for Railroad Grade Separation Projects
http://www.up.com/cs/groups/public/documents/document/pdf_rr_grade_sep_projects.pdf
 
and
 
Look on page 153 of the following:
Guidelines for Design of Grade Separation Structures
http://www.nscorp.com/content/dam/nscorp/ship/shipping-tools/Public_Projects_Manual.pdf


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ClydeDET
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Re: Railroad window glass
 
« Reply #13 on: Jul 22nd, 2015, 6:38pm »
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Well, I guess an underground system in Nawlins or Miami could be built - look at the Washburn Tunnel (for cars, not trains) under the ship Channel down here in Tejas between Galena Park and Pasadena. That technique should work fine. Expensive though, including the ventilation fans and keeping the sump pumped.

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