Railfan.net Home Railfan Photos ABPR Archives Staff Safari Photos Railfan Links

Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please Sign In or Register. Jan 20th, 2018, 12:14am
Categories •  FastIndex •  LongIndex •  Help •  Search •  Members  •  Sign In •  Register


Metro North Derailment
   Railfan.net Web Forums
   The Mainline
   Rail Safety
(Moderators: prostock19, CP8673, , Pyronova, cn2220, BNSF_1088)
   Metro North Derailment
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint
   Author  Topic: Metro North Derailment  (Read 410 times)
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4801
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #20 on: Dec 7th, 2013, 7:33pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

News up-date earlier today indicated that there is no "Reduce speed" board prior to the curve, but engineers are expected to have memorized all such locations on their route and behave accordingly.
 
Also FRA has issued an emergency order requiring Metro North to identify all locations where there are significant speed reductions and determine what steps they will take to insure engineers will be alerted. Also that pending signal changes, they must have a second crewman in the cab on lines where there are significant speed reductions on the run.
 
And appears that FRA is going to require ALL commuter lines (maybe all passenger lines - not sure just what the order requires and haven't looked it up) to have automatic train stop for locations like this (as well as enhanced signals to notify crews of locations where speed restrictions are required) if the train doesn't slow down. And of course auto-sop if a train blows a restrictive signal.
 
There seems to be some question in the matter of who is going to pay for all this and just how fast the signal suppliers can provide the needed gear and the railroads install it.


Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3448
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #21 on: Dec 8th, 2013, 9:07am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Dec 7th, 2013, 7:33pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...News up-date earlier today indicated that there is no "Reduce speed" board prior to the curve, but engineers are expected to  
have memorized all such locations on their route and behave accordingly...

 
Clyde - All -  
 
GASP! "Walk on the wild side"? Great system, as long as all don't lose their minds, or otherwise suddenly infirm! (SIGH!)  
So the Legacy NYC physical plant nowhere near the same as the old PENN, B&O, CB&Q, et. al.?
 
For all the rest of it you passed along. With this one, some of us had our suspicions. FRA actions inevitable, on its discovery  
of actual conditions.
 
..............................Vern..........................


Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3833
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #22 on: Dec 9th, 2013, 2:35pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Dec 7th, 2013, 7:33pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
News up-date earlier today indicated that there is no "Reduce speed" board prior to the curve, but engineers are expected to have memorized all such locations on their route and behave accordingly.

That is simply INSANE, at least IMHO.  Most railroads have speed boards, many with the equivalent of an approach and a home board, and have this in addition to having the speed restrictions listed in the employee timetable.  The only exception that I know of personally, and this was quite a few years in the past, had lineside boards, but not a list of curve restrictions in the employee timetable.  
 
They must figure that the guy has his route throughly memorized and never loses his situational awareness.  At this point, I had better shut up.


Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3448
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #23 on: Dec 10th, 2013, 7:59am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

George - All -  
 
Right! Right! These days best zipper one's lips? Those of us who may be labeled Old Coots apparently with all sorts of  
strange notions about how to run trains. These days, it is chatter of new paradigms, fresh sheets of paper, tweeting,  
twittering, social networks. And no funds for the so, so 1935 era, Retro CTC, Cab Signals, and all the rest of it.  
 
Too, and it didn't hit me viscerally at first? This nonsense of one guy (gal) at the console, and no one else there in the  
control space area. Compare freight side. Cabs large enough they need "quorum calls" before starting the train.
 
SIGH! Insanity is in the mind of the beholder?
 
..........................Vern.........................
 


Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
Charlie Ricker
Historian
Posts: 2210
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #24 on: Dec 10th, 2013, 10:54am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Dec 9th, 2013, 2:35pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 
They must figure that the guy has his route throughly memorized and never loses his situational awareness.

 
George/Vern/Clyde/All:
 
Sounds as if that could be the case, and if so.......that absolutely is insane and hugely impractical. While I never ran a train in my life, I ran regular routes driving a school bus. I ran different routes for a number of years each and IMO visual cues (in this case, a numeric speed board) are necessary, even being highly familiar with a certain territory and running over it, over and over again. Minds can drift, other things can enter any given person's mind. If a person doesn't feel well, that can change the way a person thinks.  
 
There are so many things that can change people's thought processes, and if there was no speed board to forewarn an operator of this curve, there should have been. I found visual cues very helpful over the years in my experience.
 
My .02 of a dollar,
 
Charlie


Logged

~Charlie Ricker

HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3448
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #25 on: Dec 10th, 2013, 2:02pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Dec 10th, 2013, 10:54am, Charlie Ricker wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...There are so many things that can change people's thought processes, and if  
there was no speed board to forewarn an operator of this curve, there should have been. I found visual cues very helpful over the years in my experience...  

 
Charlie - All -  
 
Not that I encourage needless redundancy here, but... I am on board with your thinking! The whole business of  
one man in control cabs, on power on the busiest lines in all of the US/ Whoa! That's nuts!
 
(SIGH! Think of all the money they claimed to have saved, with no one else there in the cab with the Engineer -
Motorman, Operator, Person Of Interest-, whatever)?
 
..............................Vern...................


Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
Charlie Ricker
Historian
Posts: 2210
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #26 on: Dec 10th, 2013, 5:26pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Dec 10th, 2013, 2:02pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

(SIGH! Think of all the money they claimed to have saved, with no one else there in the cab with the Engineer -
Motorman, Operator, Person Of Interest-, whatever)?

 
Well, that's it. It seems to ring true in a great deal of rail disasters. This nightmare as well as the recent tragedy in Lac Megantic may (MAY!) have been avoided if a second person and set of eyes were in the cab with the operator/engineer, etc. In hindsight, SO much more money would have been saved if they spent a little more up-front.
 
Yikes.
 
Charlie


Logged

~Charlie Ricker

GG1man
TRAINing
View Profile  

Posts: 7
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #27 on: Dec 10th, 2013, 10:43pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

I agree totally.  There should be two people in the control cab.  But of course, the bottom line, $$, always wins.

Logged
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4801
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #28 on: Dec 11th, 2013, 5:17pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Dec 10th, 2013, 10:43pm, GG1man wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I agree totally.  There should be two people in the control cab.  But of course, the bottom line, $$, always wins.

 
 
Well, there is the bottom line, and then there is the bottom line.  The one that includes pay and bennies for crew - and then the one that adds the multi-million $$ cost of a (preventable) event like this....


Logged
Les_Shepherd
Historian
Posts: 425
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #29 on: Dec 12th, 2013, 5:14am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

With absolute respect to views expressed I would like to add a few slants and experiences.
 
I do not understand how a RR can operate without the posting of permanent speed boards. All of our own systems have them. What is more, we also post 'temporary speed' boards where necessary. These also have a 'clearance' board at the end of the temprorary restriction. A weekly printed notice is issued to all drivers listing the temporary restrictions and why. Interestingly there can be several speed limits imposed on a section and they apply to the type of train operating through the section. Loco hauled, multiple unit, Express passengerMU.  
 
The use of 'audible cab signals' can be a vexed one. As UK drivers of their high speed trains will testify, when travelling at over 100mph you can get an audible signal every 30 seconds. It quickly becomes a 'background noise' and is easily not recognised/ignored. On reflection, we do not have audible cab signals on the extensive suburban networks in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane. They do in Adelaide. The efficacy is questionable; it all depends on the circumstances.
 
ATC sounds great, and it is. Systems are fitted to Eurostar and to 2 tube lines in London; the Victoria line and the Central line. All three insist on having a driver in the cab. At least on the undergound lines the "drivers" job is the most boring imaginable. To stand on a platform watching a train enter and the expressions of sheer boredom on the drivers face really has to be seen to be properly understood.
 
Having 2 people in the drivers cab provides no certainty of safety; particulalry if they are both sleep deprived or are working at the ends of a long shift. What are the maximum time limits on a shift under US rail safety regulations?
Driver only operations work safely and effectively all over the world and there is no reason why the US should be any different. The fitting and operation of vigilance control buttons/pedals requiring regular enagement should be sufficiently effective.
So far as freight is concerned I point out that the iron ore trains in Western Australia operate as dirver only. These trains average 44,000 tonnes and have slave units mid train. They operate quite safely using US standard RR operating practices, including terminology. The cabs are fitted with refrigerators, microwave ovens, CD/music players and strong air-conditioning. How these comforts affect the driving I do not know.
 
When it comes to long working shifts I often become worried when boarding an aircraft for a long flight. A 13 hour flight sector is very common here and there are some up to 16 hours. I feel this is too long a period even with 2 in the cockpit. My understanding is that RR drivers are restricted to maximum shifts of no more than 11/12 hours depending on the regulator.


Logged

HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3448
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #30 on: Dec 12th, 2013, 10:42am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Dec 11th, 2013, 5:17pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...Well, there is the bottom line, and then there is the bottom line.  The one that includes pay and bennies for crew - and then the one that  
adds the multi-million $$ cost of a (preventable) event like this....

 
Clyde -
 
Exactly! The brilliant, recognized economist, Dr. Thomas Sowell, tells us, "...it is all trade offs!". True. The troubles with public  
stewardship of railroad operations? Might I posit most have no idea how much money it takes to run any of the operations?  
Well, at least to do it right and safely.  
 
Les -  
 
Noted your disclaimer. Might I say, just stop by anytime and add your thinking. You contribute a world view perspective.  
Considering the instant wreck at Bronx? Had the line of railroad with benefit of circa 1935, US Patent protections in place,  
IMHO, it should have been avoidable...
 
In your commentary, you get to a basic problem. Lines of railroad, very much in need of improved signal and train control  
systems. In the politics of all of it, the projects simply don't get the capital funds for the investments. (It is hard for politicos  
to get out and hustle votes if, on their records, any had voted for betterments to rail systems. Most voters have no idea of the  
inherent worth of it.)
 
 
.............................Vern............................


Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
Pages: 1 2  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint

« Previous topic | Next topic »