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Metro North Derailment
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ClydeDET
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Metro North Derailment
 
« on: Dec 2nd, 2013, 4:32pm »
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Appears Metro North derailed a commuter run Sunday, killed four (as far as is presently known) and put multiple cars on the ground. Nearly into the water, but not quite. Line still out of service. In the Bronx, in-bound.  Pictures look like an MU or push-pull, pushing. MAYBE over the 30 mph limit for the curse.
 
First Metro north fatalities since the operation was created about 30 years ago.
 
Sad.
 
EDIT - NTSB says they have recovered black boxes and preliminary (they emphasize PRELIMINARY) indications are that train was running at around 82 mph when it derailed. Appears speed limit in advance of curve is 70mph and 30 mph around the curve. Engineer injured, not yet interviewed.  
 
Why do i suspect the PC will be "Speed too great for conditions and indicated limits", and the issue s going to be how come. And how soon automatic train stop equipment will be installed to make over-speed operation impossible?


« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2013, 5:08pm by ClydeDET » Logged
TAB
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Posts: 1912
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #1 on: Dec 2nd, 2013, 5:06pm »
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...just heard on the news that the NTSB reported, based on preliminary black box data, that the train was traveling at 82 mph into the 30 mph curve....Tom

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ClydeDET
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #2 on: Dec 2nd, 2013, 6:45pm »
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Yes, heard that as well. Also that after the last stop, accelerated to 70 mph. And then sped up. They don't know why. Or if they do, they aren't talking yet.  i note that there was nothing said about any brake applications, but i reckon we will know more with time. Engineer had probably better lawyer up...

« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2013, 6:46pm by ClydeDET » Logged
HwyHaulier
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #3 on: Dec 3rd, 2013, 9:26am »
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Clyde - TAB - All -  
 
Ah! It just get worse. In radio News (CBS) this AM today, statements the event recorders indicate Engineer went for first  
brake application, while at 82 mph, at about six seconds before entry to the curve.
 
Your point ref. A T C. The Railroads, in connection with suppliers had this as reliable technology before WWII. (Yes, one  
can look it up!) In the long ago time, it is why the old PENN touted reliability and safety claims over (what is now) the NEC  
Route. The old B&O was good at it, too...
 
..............................Vern...............................


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train48
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #4 on: Dec 3rd, 2013, 11:14am »
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http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/12/william-rockefeller-sleeping-train-crash-derail-metro-north.html

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HwyHaulier
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #5 on: Dec 3rd, 2013, 12:32pm »
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Train48 - All -  
 
Thanks! (More or less.) I thought it was going to get this bad!
 
The facts is the facts. I'll let NTSB sort it out. They are there on this cold day. I am not. They will figure it. Result is not good...
 
The question here? If "kids these days" are so charmed with "Retro", then... Explain why the line of railroad not run subject  
Year 1935 technology? (CTC won the War, you know. Look it up!)
 
..........................Vern...............................
 


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TAB
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Posts: 1912
Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #6 on: Dec 3rd, 2013, 2:14pm »
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....was there no Alerter or Dead Man's Pedal?.....Tom

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HwyHaulier
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #7 on: Dec 3rd, 2013, 2:48pm »
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Tom - All -
 
The "issue" with that being? I am also following a discussion on a Trucking Forum. In that, some tales of implied  
learning on what to do when awakened from a brief nap while driving truck. At the point, it is well to have training  
in reflexive, self survival habits.  
 
In the instant instance? I suspect one can "nod off" and continue to keep their foot on the so called "dead man"  
pedal? That may not be a reliable fix. The line of railroad needs Old Time CTC, and assorted gadgets. Blow a  
signal, and brakes apply...
 
..................................Vern..........................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #8 on: Dec 3rd, 2013, 5:50pm »
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on Dec 3rd, 2013, 9:26am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde - TAB - All -  
 
Ah! It just get worse. In radio News (CBS) this AM today, statements the event recorders indicate Engineer went for first  
brake application, while at 82 mph, at about six seconds before entry to the curve.
 
Your point ref. A T C. The Railroads, in connection with suppliers had this as reliable technology before WWII. (Yes, one  
can look it up!) In the long ago time, it is why the old PENN touted reliability and safety claims over (what is now) the NEC  
Route. The old B&O was good at it, too...
 
..............................Vern...............................

 
Yeah, I know about that, Vern. Pennsy still had its moments - the Washington Union Station runaway that put a GG1 in the baggage room, for example.
 
Not sure this train did blow a signal, though it surely blew a "Reduce Speed" board of some sort, i expect.
 
The engineer has lawyered up, but not before he apparently made some sort of statement about going into a daze - "Highway hypnosis" suggested - fixated on the two shining rails and lost track of what he was doing and where he was. That strikes me as laying a defense in case the DA decides to indict him for manslaughter.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #9 on: Dec 4th, 2013, 12:42pm »
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Clyde - All -  
 
Thanks! Yes, the PENN disaster, with locomotive coming to rest in a basement level of Washington Union Station very much notable.  
(Shoot, I was in the Station several days past the event! Time flies!) See the "Net sources. What transpired was outside the design  
assumptions of PENNA RR train protection in its signal system. Recall, in the incident, it had everything to do with a broken air line  
connection with the rest of the train. (The PRR System fool proof, but it did not account for all possible fools?)...
 
Meanwhile. Instant Metro-North wreck in the Bronx. Better to let the News accounts catch up with this one? I know (radio reports this  
a.m.), NTSB believes the Union a distraction. This one needs input from cadre of folks who understand "Human Sleep Cycle" theory  
and practice. Something is bothering me that the Engineer a long time "second trick" runner. He had been away from the assignments  
for a mere two weeks. Should make for a solid defense case?
 
...........................Vern......................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #10 on: Dec 4th, 2013, 10:17pm »
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Vern, All -
 
I don't think the signal and safety system could have done much in the Washington Union Station accident - really seems to me (though nobody would admit it) some sort of sabotage. Same angle cock being closed twice..
 
NTSB decided the union rep ran his mouth so they have removed it as a party. Would have done the same to anybody if i'd been in charge, much less a union rep. my experience with Union officials over the years has not endeared the breed to me.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #11 on: Dec 5th, 2013, 9:49am »
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Clyde - All -  
 
This doesn't help at all, but New York Daily News apparently elected to "Trial By News Paper"!
 
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/bronx/photos-metro-north-engineer-minutes-crash-article-1.1537222
 
IMHO, I don't like it. Poisons potential Jury Pools, of folks from Five Boros. Too, in my own humble estimation,  
this a good "human factors" case. Will we ever stop playing games with "hours of service" rules, and uneven  
application? Does one feel comfortable at a hospital, knowing many of the RN and staff are doing "double shifts"?
 
Also, see link. This Train 8808? Note runs non stop, Tarrytown to 125th St.
http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/planning/schedules/pdf/NOV172013HUD-SS.pdf
 
.............................Vern........................


« Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2013, 10:09am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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George_Harris
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #12 on: Dec 5th, 2013, 5:03pm »
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on Dec 4th, 2013, 12:42pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Something is bothering me that the Engineer a long time "second trick" runner. He had been away from the assignments  
for a mere two weeks. Should make for a solid defense case?

Vern:
 
Is second trick still afternoon/evening?  In which case early morning would have been in the midst of his normal sleep cycle.  You can definitely nod off without realizing it during that time period.  
 
No, a dead man's pedal is insufficient.  There was a case a few years back where a collision occurred in Australia because the man's foot stayed on the pedal when he was quite literally dead.  Heart attack.  Somewhat heavy individual so that when he slumped forward his foot did not move.  
 
A dashboard alerter wold been more likely to be effective.  
 
Somewhat relevant example:  Where I grew up the man across the road had a night trick on a switch engine in the MoP yard in Memphis.  He generally got home about the time his kids were leaving for school.  Did what was needed to be done during the front end of the business day, slept the day, got up for supper, had evening with family and went to work.  About the time I was in high school he had enought seniority to bid on a day shift.  Worked it just a few weeks and at the first opportunity went back to his night shift.  His comment, he found it so much more convenient to be off in the daytime and that the working conditions were much quieter at night.  Stayed on his night shift until he retired.  


« Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2013, 5:04pm by George_Harris » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #13 on: Dec 5th, 2013, 5:30pm »
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on Dec 5th, 2013, 9:49am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde - All -  
 
This doesn't help at all, but New York Daily News apparently elected to "Trial By News Paper"!
 
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/bronx/photos-metro-north-engineer-minutes-crash-article-1.1537222
 
IMHO, I don't like it. Poisons potential Jury Pools, of folks from Five Boros. Too, in my own humble estimation,  
this a good "human factors" case. Will we ever stop playing games with "hours of service" rules, and uneven  
application? Does one feel comfortable at a hospital, knowing many of the RN and staff are doing "double shifts"?
 
Also, see link. This Train 8808? Note runs non stop, Tarrytown to 125th St.
http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/planning/schedules/pdf/NOV172013HUD-SS.pdf
 
.............................Vern........................

 
Back when I was still packing a bar card, i was involved in more than one "trial by newspaper (and TV station)" cases. Makes it VERY difficult to get a fair trial.
 
As to concerns about hospital staff all zoned out from too many hours working and too few sleeping - scares the pee out of me to contemplate that. Was really concered while my wif was hospitalized for observation after what turned out to be a TIA earlier this year. "Are the people going to be paying attention in case something goes south", eh?


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #14 on: Dec 6th, 2013, 10:32am »
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George - Clyde - All -  
 
Just so's I don't add to obfuscation. Term "second trick" is what, in environments a bit saner than rail operations, referred to for  
1500 HR - 2300 HR turn, yes? We all need to be in the same Rule Book! <G>
 
MNRR T/T Note: The Schedule for S/B (TT E) #8808 has thirty (30) minutes for Tarrytown to 125th Street, a twenty-one (21) mile  
segment. It does not compel hard running.
 
Worse. Note the time of day. There is a great body of proved knowledge that the ninety (90) minutes (or so) each side of Sun Rise  
can be deadly.
 
FWIW. Maybe I have said so much here, an Attorney will call and inquire whether I might be an "expert witness" (Shoot! I'm not a  
Doctor! What do I know?)
 
..........................Vern........................


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George_Harris
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #15 on: Dec 6th, 2013, 10:50am »
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Vern / Clyde:
 
Agree with all you say.  You will notice that there are things I never talk about here.  If I am involved in something I dare not say anything about it in public.  At least, in writing.  An internet search will turn up things said here.  It has been said in places where I have worked (by who and where I ain't saying!) that you should never put in writing anywhere anything you would not want to explain on TV, in the newspaper, or in court.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #16 on: Dec 6th, 2013, 11:28am »
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George - All -  
 
I appreciate your wariness and caution. The computer servers will go on forever,
provided someone pays the electricity bills...
 
In this example, and as a rule I will not comment on accident reports, this one is a  
screaming "Hours Of Service" and "Sleep Study" example.
 
.........................Vern.............................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #17 on: Dec 6th, 2013, 6:17pm »
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on Dec 6th, 2013, 11:28am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
George - All -  
 
I appreciate your wariness and caution. The computer servers will go on forever,
provided someone pays the electricity bills...
 
In this example, and as a rule I will not comment on accident reports, this one is a  
screaming "Hours Of Service" and "Sleep Study" example.
 
.........................Vern.............................

 
 
Yep, sure does look like those are (or should be) issues to be studied in relation to the event. A curst sad event.


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Les_Shepherd
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #18 on: Dec 7th, 2013, 4:09am »
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There are several issues which have arisen in this conversation which encourage me to enter some comments.
 
The NYDailyNews article is one where 'freedom of the press' has been exercised without exercising the related 'rsponsibility'. We have been having a similar public argument here about the publication of national security issues.
 
The issue of a 'safety pedal'. George is correct. We had an accident here several years ago involving a pedal. It was an early morning train and the driver indeed had a heart attack and was slumped over the control panel and foot pedal. It should have become obvious to the Guard at the rear of the train that the speed was too high and then applied his emergency brake. Subsequently, all of the carsets involved were modified so that the pedal had to be depressed at intervals. Holding it down or not depressing it at all would automatically apply the brakes. Similar hand controls exist on our locomotives also.
 
The issue of 'automatic train control' is one for considerable depate. In the UK they have been wanting to introduce it for decades but have not been able to fund the cost. Eurostar do use it on the line through the Channel Tunel. Here in NSW we have been testing a system for several years. I found out this week that the tests have been discontinued and no action is planned. The reasons are unknown. With ATC cost of instalation woill always be an issue.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Metro North Derailment
 
« Reply #19 on: Dec 7th, 2013, 10:24am »
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Les - All -  
 
Thanks for your commentary and thinking on this wreck, from your shores far away. Right! It does put things in perspective...
 
At this point, we await thinking of NTSB Investigation. The event a very bad wreck...
 
............................Vern...........................


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