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Double-deckers/bilevels
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   Author  Topic: Double-deckers/bilevels  (Read 854 times)
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #60 on: Oct 29th, 2015, 1:49pm »
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Clyde:
 
Thanks for the heads-up, here; I can see now why NJT has been more and more leaning towards push-pulls over MU's.
 
We often hear of ridership levels increasing on NJT; if this indeed is the case, then purchasing more bilevels would seem a no-brainer.
 
If NJT's bilevels can fit through the tight contours of the former PRR's 104-year old Hudson River tubes , one might wonder why AMTRAK has not purchased any bilevels for NEC services.......
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2015, 1:52pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #61 on: Oct 29th, 2015, 7:43pm »
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on Oct 29th, 2015, 1:49pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde:
 
Thanks for the heads-up, here; I can see now why NJT has been more and more leaning towards push-pulls over MU's.
 
We often hear of ridership levels increasing on NJT; if this indeed is the case, then purchasing more bilevels would seem a no-brainer.
 
If NJT's bilevels can fit through the tight contours of the former PRR's 104-year old Hudson River tubes , one might wonder why AMTRAK has not purchased any bilevels for NEC services.......
 
"L.F.L."

 
 
I. I am NOT certain that MUs require each (powered) car to be treated as a locomotive for inspection purposes, but have seen that "somewhere";
 
2. Would need to compare NJT bi-level dimensions with those of (say) Superliners. Might not be economic to have to have a special "low profile" bi-level long distance car. I recall &O/B&O ordered some special domes that could be used under wire to get into Washington Union Station, since they went in from Alexandria when PRR electrification extended to Alex. And the domes had to be vacated before they got under wire, just in case it arced...


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #62 on: Oct 29th, 2015, 8:57pm »
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Clyde:
 
Appreciate further input.....thank you.
 
I had mentioned the B&O dome cars earlier in this discussion; these cars were part of the new sets of lightweight rolling stock for the "COLUMBIAN" in 1949.
 
The new low-clearance domes (recall these domes were unique on Eastern roads); as I had mentioned previously, the tight clearances in the East were not at all conducive to dome operation.
 
At that, B&O did not allow passengers to occupy the dome levels while traveling under the PRR catenary in the DC area, as you have already noted.....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2015, 8:58pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #63 on: Oct 29th, 2015, 9:03pm »
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Two late 1960's views of B&O's "low domes"......
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-d5551gea.jpg
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-dc5550dca.jpg *
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)
 
*For a mail/express train, the lone dome car trailing indeed makes for a most interesting consist!


« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2015, 9:08pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #64 on: Oct 29th, 2015, 10:16pm »
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More info/photos on B&O's "Strata-Domes" ("low domes")
 
These distinctive cars were operated by AMTRAK until 1981; several survive today.....
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strata-Dome
 
http://www.trainweb.org/web_lurker/BO/
 
(courtesy: trainweb.org)


« Last Edit: Oct 29th, 2015, 10:19pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #65 on: Oct 29th, 2015, 10:46pm »
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B&O dome interiors (1964)......
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-dome-abr.jpg
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-dome-cbr.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #66 on: Oct 31st, 2015, 4:14pm »
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Quick historical note:
 
Yesterday (Oct. 30) marked the 43rd anniversary of the tragic IC wreck involving a train of the new "Highliners" and a train of the old heavyweight MU's.
 
May the souls of all that perished on that day never be forgotten.....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Oct 31st, 2015, 4:15pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #67 on: Oct 31st, 2015, 7:49pm »
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on Oct 31st, 2015, 4:14pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Quick historical note:
 
Yesterday (Oct. 30) marked the 43rd anniversary of the tragic IC wreck involving a train of the new "Highliners" and a train of the old heavyweight MU's.
 
May the souls of all that perished on that day never be forgotten.....
 
"L.F.L."

 
Indeed so. Requisat in pacem.


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #68 on: Nov 6th, 2015, 11:58pm »
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I have always found it a bit odd, that, as the LIRR's commuter fleet is made up largely of MU's,  their double-deckers of the 90's were built as push-pulls and not as electrics.
 
Though MU's have been falling out of favor on NJT for a number of years now, it would seem that, on a railroad like the LIRR, which operates such a huge MU fleet, why these double-deckers were not built as electrics.......
 
"L.F.L."


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ClydeDET
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Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #69 on: Nov 7th, 2015, 3:23pm »
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on Nov 6th, 2015, 11:58pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I have always found it a bit odd, that, as the LIRR's commuter fleet is made up largely of MU's,  their double-deckers of the 90's were built as push-pulls and not as electrics.
 
Though MU's have been falling out of favor on NJT for a number of years now, it would seem that, on a railroad like the LIRR, which operates such a huge MU fleet, why these double-deckers were not built as electrics.......
 
"L.F.L."

 
I'm sure it was a decision driven by economics. An unpowered car in a push-pull set would be significantly lighter and cheaper (no motored trucks, third-rail shoe or pantograph power collection gear, etc. - just an extra set of cables for he cab car to control the engine) to buy, and probably other things that I don't know about in service. Plus, I suppose, easier to change the number of cars to match passenger loads at different times of the day if that seemed desirable.
 
And could be easier/quicker to get delivery of unpowered push-pull cars than M.U.s.  
 
All WAGs...


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #70 on: Nov 7th, 2015, 3:34pm »
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Clyde:
 
Good points, all.
 
Back in the 90's, when i first heard that the LIRR would be getting new double-deckers, I just naturally assumed that they would be MU's, as their ancestors were.
 
I can certainly see where economics enter the picture; in a sense, MU's are bi-directional "push pulls", except that they are self-powered units that do not require a locomotive.
 
On a somewhat-related sidenote, here in the US, 100-odd years ago, a few street railway companies (including NEW YORK RAILWAYS) experimented with double-deck streetcars.
 
As you might expect, these few experiments were FAR from being successful, and, for obvious reasons, never repeated.
 
One such car was the hulking "BROADWAY BATTLESHIP" of NEW YORK RAILWAYS (Manhattan), which operated in Manhattan, prior to WW1.
 
The exact opposite held true in the British Isles for decades, where double-deck trams (like their rubber-tired counterparts) were indeed the rule, rather than the exception.....
 
"L.F.L."
 
 
 


« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2015, 4:00pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #71 on: Nov 7th, 2015, 3:49pm »
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A rare view of the aforementioned double-deck "BROADWAY BATTLESHIP" of the "NEW YORK RAILWAYS".
 
The low center entrance was typical of many cars of that era (pre-WW1) when fashionable ladies were wearing long, tight skirts ("hobble skirts"); arrangements such as seen here on #6000 made it easier for such stylish ladies to board the cars.
 
Also, note lack of trolley poles; like Washington, DC, overhead wires were prohibited in Manhattan, and streetcars drew their power from an underground conduit slot between the rails.......
 
http://www.newdavesrailpix.com/nyc/htm/mnyr26.htm
 
(courtesy: newdavesrailpix.com)
 


« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2015, 4:01pm by CLASSB » Logged
Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1726
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #72 on: Nov 7th, 2015, 8:50pm »
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on Oct 29th, 2015, 10:46pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
B&O dome interiors (1964)......
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-dome-abr.jpg
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-dome-cbr.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)

 
 
L.F.L., this first photo stirs a childhood memory for me . . .
 
My Dad was an aerospace engineer, and somewhere around 1958 he was sent from our home in suburban Los Angeles to Washington, D.C. to present a paper at conference at the Smithsonian.  For all his aerospace knowledge, he was deathly afraid of flying, so the company decided to send him across the country by train instead.  He rode the Super Chief to Chicago, and then the Capitol Limited to Washington.  I still recall his admiration for the "instrumentation" in the forward bulkhead of the Strata-Dome, as well as the roof-mounted floodlights that illuminated the Appalachian woodlands at night.  It's great to see this color photo of these cars.  Thanks for sharing them.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #73 on: Nov 7th, 2015, 9:26pm »
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Norm:
 
You are QUITE welcome, my friend!
 
Also, thanks for sharing that great family story; man, would I love to go back in time and take that same journey!
 
For yours truly, growing up in Northeastern NJ during the 60's, the only contact I had with domes was via photos in TRAINS, or those HO and LIONEL versions that I operated on my "no frills" styrafoam/plywood oval pikes!
 
When I unexpectedly encountered a dome car in the consist of my eastbound BROADWAY LIMITED at Chicago, back in 1986, it was, for me, a long-overdue treat to FINALLY ride aboard one of these classic cars......I wouldn't have traded that magnificent experience for anything!
 
The B&O cars, from the pics I've seen, were truly beautiful......like the SF's fine stable of silver thoroughbreds, the B&O cars were first-class all the way.......aaahhh, to go back in time, if only for a few days.......(!!)
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Nov 7th, 2015, 9:30pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #74 on: Nov 8th, 2015, 5:18pm »
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on Nov 7th, 2015, 8:50pm, Norm_Anderson wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 
L.F.L., this first photo stirs a childhood memory for me . . .
 
My Dad was an aerospace engineer, and somewhere around 1958 he was sent from our home in suburban Los Angeles to Washington, D.C. to present a paper at conference at the Smithsonian.  For all his aerospace knowledge, he was deathly afraid of flying, so the company decided to send him across the country by train instead.  He rode the Super Chief to Chicago, and then the Capitol Limited to Washington.  I still recall his admiration for the "instrumentation" in the forward bulkhead of the Strata-Dome, as well as the roof-mounted floodlights that illuminated the Appalachian woodlands at night.  It's great to see this color photo of these cars.  Thanks for sharing them.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm

 
Could be his great knowledge of things aeronautical was the reason he was afraid to fly - knew too much about what could go wrong...


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #75 on: Nov 8th, 2015, 5:58pm »
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on Nov 8th, 2015, 5:18pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Could be his great knowledge of things aeronautical was the reason he was afraid to fly - knew too much about what could go wrong...

 
Clyde:
 
A Wise Man was once quoted as proclaiming to the Masses:
 
".......next time, take the TRAIN......"
 
I flew once in 1987; that one time was enough for me....I'm MORE than happy to be traveling by rail........
 
 
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Nov 8th, 2015, 5:59pm by CLASSB » Logged
Les_Shepherd
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Posts: 425
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #76 on: Nov 8th, 2015, 11:34pm »
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Relating to the previous post; some of us have little choice because if we wish to go somewhere we must fly. For some time I have consciously avoided flying through the middle east.
 
Tramcars:
It is all very nostalgic to review images of 20th century tramcars; it is also important to consider the social impact tramways had on the societies they inhabited.
 
In 1879 4 steam motors and 6 double deck cars arrived in Sydney from Baldwins. The motors were Baldwins standard 0-4-0ST units and the 6 cars were New York style double deckers. Thus began a love/hate relationship between Sydney residents and these "juggernauts" which lasted until 1936.
 
The double deckers had canvas canopies over the upper deck and vertical striped drop down curtains on the lower deck. Usually 2 cars were attached to each motor.
 
The photographs from the 1880's and 1890's are in every respect stunning.
 
The spread of the network throughout the suburbs permitted more distant residential development by providing convenient and cheap transport to city employment. They also provided mass transport to recreational destinations. This included several beaches, picnic grounds and racecourses. The first extension from the city was to the racecourse.
 
So successful were the lines that isolated systems were built in outer suburban areas and in several regional cities. The most amazing being in the Outback town of Broken Hill.
 
There was a strong "hate" relationship. Cartoonists drew the trams with the "death skeleton" riding on the front of the motors and the slogan "mangaling done here". This was a play on common signs outside chinese laundries.
 
If you are interested I will attempt to post some images.


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #77 on: Nov 9th, 2015, 12:01am »
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Les:
 
An EXCELLENT post; thank you for sharing your views/info here with the rest of us!
 
San Diego and Pittsburgh were two other American cities that once experimented with double-decker streetcars; as was the case in New York, these experiments were not at all successful.
 
Like the steam locomotives before them, the "infant sparkers" (early electric streetcars) also had a tendencies to "spook" horses, requiring their drivers to keep a tight hold on the reins to prevent them from bolting and running away.
 
Bus-wise, nowhere in the US were double-deckers more celebrated than those of the old FACC (Fifth Avenue Coach Company), which operated its last double-deckers in 1953.
 
The long-defunct Chicago Motor Coach Company also operated a large fleet of double deckers; such buses also once ran in Baltimore, Cleveland, Detroit, and Los Angeles.
 
Back to the rails, the double-deck/bilevel/gallery commuter car indeed became popular in the Chicago area in the postwar years, and remain so to this day.
 
As noted earlier, the ESPEE also operated such cars on their commuter routes out of San Francisco.........
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2015, 12:02am by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #78 on: Nov 9th, 2015, 2:05pm »
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Have a book  on the development of the New York City subway and surface transit system(s). In hiding right now so might not have the title correct, but something like 722 MILES UNDERGROUND. Quite interesting, points out that a lot of the development followed (or paralleled) the building of the rapid transit. Provide a way for people to get places to work and shop - and folks will build houses for them to live in when they were off. And of course, industry then followed: "workers available, let's build a factory" said the capitalists.  
 
Now, of course, in most of the US at least, build roads instead of (sadly) railroads... BUT places that haven't had rail transit for many years are restoring that mode (Dallas Area Rapid Transit, Houston Metro, others).


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: Double-deckers/bilevels
 
« Reply #79 on: Nov 9th, 2015, 2:27pm »
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on Nov 9th, 2015, 2:05pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Have a book  on the development of the New York City subway and surface transit system(s). In hiding right now so might not have the title correct, but something like 722 MILES UNDERGROUND. Quite interesting, points out that a lot of the development followed (or paralleled) the building of the rapid transit. Provide a way for people to get places to work and shop - and folks will build houses for them to live in when they were off. And of course, industry then followed: "workers available, let's build a factory" said the capitalists.  
 
Now, of course, in most of the US at least, build roads instead of (sadly)  
railroads... BUT places that haven't had rail transit for many years are restoring that mode (Dallas Area Rapid Transit, Houston Metro, others).

 
Clyde:
 
In far too many places where proposals and studies are making the news for the revival of commuter rail service, there is no longer any place to put new rails.
 
Too, a number of formerly busy ROW's are now either hiking/biking trails, or, in many cases, totally obliterated altogether, with the building of new residential/commercial areas, and, of course, new highways.
 
It has been nearly 30 years since it was announced that studies were to begin for the viability of restoring commuter service along the NYC's old West Shore division (last trains ran in 1959) and on the NYS&W (last commuter trains operated in 1966); so far, not even a shovelful of ceremonial dirt been turned over.
 
Nearly 10 years ago, revived passenger service on the former DL&W/E-L between Hoboken and Scranton was to have been up and running, serving Pocono-area commuters to New York.
 
Ten years later, outside of the usual studies, hearings, and station location surveys, nothing further has been done.
 
Once again, yet again, we are being reminded of the many drawbacks of living in a rampant "throw-away society", especially when it comes to passenger rail revival......
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Nov 9th, 2015, 2:46pm by CLASSB » Logged
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