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Topic Summary
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Nov 30th, 2012, 10:56pm
All:
 
In William D. Middleton's "MANHATTAN GATEWAY", there is an interesting photo from 1946 at Pennsylvania Station, showing the festivites for the inaugural run of the "SUNSHINE SPECIAL", operating via the PRR, MoPac, T&P, and National Railways of Mexico.
 
Destination board announces:
 
SUNSHINE SPECIAL: TEXAS AND MEXICO CITY
 
Text tells us that these were the first through Pullmans to operate between New York and Mexico City.
 
This rare old photo clearly reminds us of another era in railroading, when passenger trains went virtually everywhere.
 
Following are a few links of interest......
 
"H.F.M."
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 12:27am
A detailed page with vintage photos and other historical information.....
 
http://trains-worldexpresses.com/800/822.htm
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 10:09am
on Nov 30th, 2012, 10:56pm, HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...In William D. Middleton's "MANHATTAN GATEWAY", there is an interesting photo from 1946 at Pennsylvania Station, showing the festivites for the  
inaugural run of the "SUNSHINE SPECIAL", operating via the PRR, MoPac, T&P, and National Railways of Mexico...      

 
HFM -  
 
So, this provides a solid "time date" on service of SUNSHINE SPECIAL. Tie that to your B & O T/T query.  
Apparently, the entire MOPAC EAGLE package tied to these dates.
 
BTW. Who is the guy with the STREAMLINERS site? I know this might be "A Round Tuit" project, but have  
you sent a public "Thank You" note for the excellent work? (S/ "Miss Manners"?)
 
..........................Vern.....................
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 10:39am
Vern:
 
Yes, this photo does indeed give us a "solid date" from which to work with; a quite from "MANHATTAN GATEWAY":
 
".......Pennsylvania Station, in the immediate postwar years, became more of a gateway to America than ever before, as new services were added. New sleeping car lines linked Penn Station with San Francisco, Los Angeles, and principal cities in Oklahoma and Texas. One Pullman route even served Mexico City......"
 
IMHO, I think that international Pullman service to Mexico is indeed one of those fascinating aspects of bygone passenger operations that still seems to be pretty much "off the beaten track", so to speak.
 
What I've managed to find and share here seems to be just about all that is out there; there doesn't seem to be all that much info available on this international operation......
 
"H.F.M."
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 10:46am
HFM -
 
Lack of data on MEXICO Cars as thru PULLMAN runs? No doubt. It didn't last all that long. Always more a curiosity in the Timetables of the era...
 
Can't imagine how it possibly had many through riders. Competing air service, between US East and Mexico City hardly novel... (BRANIFF, PANAGRA lines?)
 
.........................Vern.................
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 10:51am
Vern:
 
Was fortunate enough to come across this; some reference to the services of the "old days"......
 
"H.F.M."
 
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/169887.aspx
Posted by: jmlaboda Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 11:36am
The TexMex was the one that actually did the interchange between the MoPac and NdeM.  While none of the units used (including the shovel-nosed doodlebug the TM purchased from the B&M and cut down in length) had steam generators the connection between the two trains was able to be made fairly quickly with no problems encountered as far as passenger comfort was concerned.
 
As for the NdeM former T&P sleeper, several 100 sleeper cars were sold to the NdeM and other Mexican railways after being retired by their original owner (some sold by AMTK to NdeM) but whether or not they were actual cars that were originally used in the cross-border service is hard to say.  Most were not.
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 11:42am
on Dec 1st, 2012, 10:51am, HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Vern:
 
Was fortunate enough to come across this; some reference to the services of the "old days"......
 
"H.F.M."
 
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/743/t/169887.aspx

HFM -
 
SIGH! Maybe best to have added explanatory note this "call" reliant on TRAINS MAGAZINE? Do the Wizards In Wisconsin  
think this a Public Domain site? I don't know! Just asking!
 
That's neither here nor there! The writer of the breathless idea, in many workplace settings, apparently a good candidate for  
use of controlled substances. A "red hot spender" in belief there is no such thing as too much "FREE" FED MONEY?... BAH!
 
........................Vern......................
 
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 11:48am
on Dec 1st, 2012, 11:42am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

HFM -
 
SIGH! Maybe best to have added explanatory note this "call" reliant on TRAINS MAGAZINE? Do the Wizards In Wisconsin  
think this a Public Domain site? I don't know! Just asking!
 
That's neither here nor there! The writer of the breathless idea, in many workplace settings, apparently a good candidate for  
use of controlled substances. A "red hot spender" in belief there is no such thing as too much "FREE" FED MONEY?... BAH!
 
........................Vern......................
 

 
Vern:
 
I see you got the same impression here that I did!
 
In this day and age, to even TRY to imagine such an international through service operating, is indeed atkin to substance-induced visions in living Technicolor..........<G>
 
No, for the life of me, I cannot even BEGIN to understand as to why some would think that such a service could make a comeback.......
 
"H.F.M."
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 12:07pm
on Dec 1st, 2012, 11:48am, HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...In this day and age, to even TRY to imagine such an international through service operating, is indeed atkin to substance-induced visions in living Technicolor..........<G>...

HFM -  
 
It is not my fault that a great deal of folks have no more imagination than what required for a PC Game, or a twitter, a tweet, or a text message!
 
The "Cross Border" went on all the time! Maybe not so much on US - MEXICO, which was something of a "promo" throwaway claim. There existed  
substantial volumes on US - CANADA routes. Look it up!
 
Jerry, agree there is little reason to think 14S/ Cars ever deployed on US - MEXICO assignments. Timetable Notes, Many Thanks to Eric Bowen,  
provide precise assignments. AFAIK, the 14S/ types simply T & P/ MOPAC EAGLE "POOL" Cars...
 
............................Vern.......................  
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 12:59pm
Vern/Jerry/All:
 
Scroll down page to "SLEEPING CAR SERVICE ON MEXICAN RAILROADS"; some good reading here on US/Mexico Pullman operations, into the 1960's.......
 
"H.F.M."
 
http://utahrails.net/pass/mexico-ex-up.php
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Dec 1st, 2012, 3:57pm
on Dec 1st, 2012, 12:07pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

HFM -  
 
It is not my fault that a great deal of folks have no more imagination than what required for a PC Game, or a twitter, a tweet, or a text message!
 
The "Cross Border" went on all the time! Maybe not so much on US - MEXICO, which was something of a "promo" throwaway claim. There existed  
substantial volumes on US - CANADA routes. Look it up!
 
Jerry, agree there is little reason to think 14S/ Cars ever deployed on US - MEXICO assignments. Timetable Notes, Many Thanks to Eric Bowen,  
provide precise assignments. AFAIK, the 14S/ types simply T & P/ MOPAC EAGLE "POOL" Cars...
 
............................Vern.......................  

 
 
Eric is a really good guy. He came up this way a year or two ago (taking nephew to ride the Texas State Railroad) and we had BBQ before they went on to Rusk. His Streamliners site is a wonderful resource.
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 2nd, 2012, 7:50am
HFM - All -  
 
By now, of course, it is likely impossible to see the everyday documents which detailed daily PULLMAN operations. That is, the myriad,  
hand prepared Car records, which recorded daily reservations and ticket sales for each passenger.
 
In my aging bones, I have this feeling the Thru Cars, New York - Texas/ Mexico (B & O and PRR origins) were not quite what they seemed.  
The MEXICO thru runs are suspect. The arrangement may have been more ornamental, and served for good publicity values...
 
PULLMAN was very good at working to fill all space. With the "MEXICO" Cars, ex New York (PRR), what probably actually happened:  
A Bedroom booked for (ex.) New York - Indianapolis, then, Indianapolis - San Antonio, and last leg, San Antonio - Mexico. Yes, a Thru Car  
to Mexico could be advertised. It does not support there were many riders, who rode New York - Mexico City...
 
.........................Vern....................
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 2nd, 2012, 10:38am
Vern:
 
Makes good sense to me!
 
IMHO, to be perfectly honest, I cannot see much of a market for Pullman customers heading to Mexico, most especially from the New York area.
 
Be that as it may, PULLMAN, of course, was a massive operation, back in the day.
 
When one thinks of just how much paperwork was involved, in the days before computerized reservations, etc., this was quite an undertaking!
 
One telling photo (1940's) in Middleton's "MANHATTAN GATEWAY" shows a number of well-dressed gals clustered around an intriguing Rube Goldberg-like contraption known as a "Wassell Unit".
 
This fearsome-looking machine at Penn Station consisted of a rotating reservation board with nine revolving drums, that provided nearly 44,000 peg holes into which colored markers could be inserted, to indicate the reservation status if space on many cars for the next 90 days.
 
Placard mounted above machine reads:
 
UNIT 6
----------
 
SLEEPERS TO:
 
BALTIMORE
 
WASHINGTON
 
CAPE CHARLES
 
EMPORIUM
 
OIL CITY
 
PITTSBURGH
 
This had to be something to see in action!
 
"H.F.M."
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 2nd, 2012, 11:04am
HFM - All -  
 
"Wassell Unit"? It was all perfectly insane, yes?
 
Little wonder railroads, airlines, hotels, and so on constantly on the search for a better way to do the Reservations and Seat Assignment functions!  
The "Old Days" of hand posting these files had to need huge amounts of labor. So did Car Accounting, for that matter..
 
.........................Vern...................
 
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 2nd, 2012, 11:19am
Vern:
 
Indeed!
 
One could easily imagine hearing the famed "Powerhouse" music heard in so many of the postwar Looney Tunes cartoons, as the gals worked at a frenzied pace, trying to tame that fearsome beast known as the "Wassell Unit"!<G>
 
Then, of course, was that hideous futuristic clamshell which took root in Penn Station in 1958 (it wouldn't have looked at all out of place in the futuristic 1962 TWA terminal out at Idlewild!<G>)
 
Turns out that, despite the PRR's optimisim, this glowing, globular facility was both a financial and aesthetic disaster.
 
It was built to speed up and steamline the process of reserving space and buying tickets(!!)
 
Yes, your humble writer well recalls this "alien invader", as a wee lad, many eons ago!
 
With a whopping 2 million pricetag, it was deemed a futuristic marvel in the pre-computer age.
 
It boasted the largest closed-circuit television system to that date (107 camera and 100 recievers), plus automatic writing machines, fascimile reproduction devices, and mechanical ticket printers.
 
Automated "rolling desks" further added to the Jetsonlike-aura, used by clerks to file space coupons.
 
Alas!
 
This didn't boost Pullman (or coach) business in the least........shudda left well enough alone......
 
"H.F.M."
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 2nd, 2012, 11:34am
Returning to the scene of the crime.....<G>
 
(Also, some OUTSTANDING historical photos here as well; yep, PULLMAN business was indeed booming, back in the day!)
 
http://archpaper.com/news/articles.asp?id=5247
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 2nd, 2012, 11:40am
HFM - All -  
 
The PRR Station ticketing and reservations upgrade. Who to say it a "...financial... disaster"? You have sources to back that up?  
No, breathless judgments and opinions from rail fans don't get it. The "Accounting Dept." view of it likely a lot different.
 
A fair appraisal in that the installation likely saved huge sums in labor savings efficiencies. Recall, computer applications of the time  
were the classic "punch card" input files, feeding a computer. It worked, and there were very large numbers of similar technology in  
use by public utility companies. It a "retail billing" function...
 
The underlying, increasingly severe declines in ridership? Ticketing improvements could not fix it.
 
..........................Vern......................
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 2nd, 2012, 11:55am
Vern:
 
This observation came from Middleton's "MANHATTAN GATEWAY"; actually, mentioned more than once, here.
 
The NEW YORKER's Lewis Mumford spike thusly:
 
".......a masterpiece of architectural and visual incongruity......"
 
The NEW YORK TIMES:  
 
".......a flying saucer out of control......"
 
Middleton further comments:
 
"........it blocked the principle entrance to the concourse, forcing passengers to take a more circutous route around either end of the counter. Both waiting rooms were unsurped for the ranks of reservation clerks, to be replaced with benches in the concourse. Besides that, the new facility didn't work at all very well....."
 
However, you are quite right.....even the most modern facilities were of no help to an ailing industry about to be dealt the death knell......
 
"H.F.M."
 
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 2nd, 2012, 3:14pm
HFM - All -
 
Agreed! Let us not wander from the KEYSTONE TRAIL. Industry wide issues were not specifically that of the PENN. So far, we have  
covered particular connecting services, as part of PRR "package".
 
Now then, with Middleton, Diehl, et. al.? We see statements of perceptions, most complain the "new" Ticketing ugly. Not a word  
about how much operating expense it saved. PRR did not invest the funds, if it didn't have persuasive "ROI" (Return On Investment)  
calculus.
 
Also, well to recall the re-model contemporary with PRR interest in its Budd built KEYSTONE Train concept. Those in touch with  
the PRR folks knew the internal chatter this something of a "last stand" for any more "fresh money" into Passenger services. The  
rest is history.
 
BTW. On daily rider count thru Manhattan. Run the numbers, and the overwhelming presence that of fairly short average length of  
haul trips. This very much sensitive to automobile diversion. Also, that much business travel becoming more a suburb to suburb  
phenomena. The City Center to City Center traditional services did not fit the mix well.
 
Too, the new Ticketing arrangement also hit about coincident with introduction of Coast to Coast jet air services. Most railroaders  
likely had bad feelings about it...
 
..........................Vern.......................
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 3rd, 2012, 8:12am
HFM -  
 
Keeping all this close to stated original intent... A quite vague and foggy set of memories appeared before me thru the night. I clearly  
recall, tho lack dates and supporting photos, in the now NEC years back, "rare bird" spottings...
 
That being: Now and then, one could spot N. de M. PULLMAN Cars here in the East. It proved the PULLMAN operating practices.  
That is, on an extended "Pool Car" run, each party railroad provided equipment on a "mileage pro-rate" formula. So that: AZTEC EAGLE  
a reality. The Mexican Cars seen which proved it...
 
...............................Vern......................
Posted by: HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ Posted on: Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:31am
on Dec 3rd, 2012, 8:12am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
HFM -  
 
Keeping all this close to stated original intent... A quite vague and foggy set of memories appeared before me thru the night. I clearly  
recall, tho lack dates and supporting photos, in the now NEC years back, "rare bird" spottings...
 
That being: Now and then, one could spot N. de M. PULLMAN Cars here in the East. It proved the PULLMAN operating practices.  
That is, on an extended "Pool Car" run, each party railroad provided equipment on a "mileage pro-rate" formula. So that: AZTEC EAGLE  
a reality. The Mexican Cars seen which proved it...
 
...............................Vern......................

 
 
Vern:
 
Whoa!
 
Great little bit of rail history, early on a Monday morning!
 
This is the FIRST I've heard of this; TOTALLY surprised that an N. de M. Pullman could be spotted up here, particularly in the East.
 
The "pool" Pullmans I was familiar with as a youngster were those of the NKP, familiar sights at the E-L terminal at Hoboken (There were three cars in this pool. This info was gleaned from 1993 issue of FLAGS, DIAMONDS, AND STATUES)
 
You are now making me recall footage from one of my MARK I videos; very early E-L (or very late DL&W) train hosting several heavyweight Pullmans of the SOUTHERN, SOUTHERN PACIFIC, and PULLMAN, in addition to "company" equipment, passing through Denville, NJ (electrified commuter territory)
 
Sure wish "liner notes" were available for this one!<G>
 
Again, appreciate this interesting bit of rail history......
 
"H.F.M."
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:35am
on Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:31am, HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...This is the FIRST I've heard of this; TOTALLY surprised that an N. de M. Pullman could be spotted up here, particularly in the East...  

HFM -  
 
The PULLMAN History works detail upon why this had to be. PULLMAN clearly had the AZTEC EAGLE service as one of its through "Lines" in its operations...
 
So, it suggests PULLMAN had worked thru which participating railroads required to assign a "quota" to the run. In this instance, it apportioned between  
P R R - MOPAC/ T & P System - N. de M.... (BTW. Should one read the News, it would take a brave traveler to wish to ride overland South of the Border!
These days, likely U S Dept of State not much protection from unexpected "rough trade" on the train, if operated.)
 
P R R also with much activity with through cars on Northeast - Florida, and East - Texas/ Transcon work. Car control followed same patterns. Much solid  
past published work with coverage of all of it....
 
......................Vern...................
Posted by: TAB Posted on: Dec 3rd, 2012, 5:06pm
.....here is some information from UtahRails.net....Tom
 
Sleeping Car Service on Mexico Railroads
 
1960
Through sleeping car services to the U.S. had been discontinued by 1960. Mexico City to Laredo runs were diesel power cars. (Source; http://www.r2parks.net/NdeM.html)
 
1966
By 1966, Pullman employed a work force of 788 and operated a fleet of 335 Mexican owned or leased sleeping cars and 63 dining and parlor cars in the nation. (Source; http://www.newberry.org/sites/default/files/textpage-attachments/Pullman%20Guide.pdf , as of November 9, 2011)
 
1967
St. Louis-Mexico City sleeping car service was reinstated with the Texas Eagle (MP) from St. Louis to San Antonio, Texas, and the Aztec Eagle (MP/NdeM) San Antonio-Mexico City. (Source; http://www.r2parks.net/NdeM.html)
 
December 31, 1968
Pullman ceased operations in Mexico. Pullman had started operations in Mexico in 1884, providing service between El Paso and Mexico City. The service was successful, except during the Mexican Revolution between 1914 and 1920, lasting until all Pullman operations ceased at the end of 1968. (Source; http://www.pullman-museum.org/theCompany/timeline.html)
 
The following summary of MP and NdeM operations between Laredo and Mexico City comes from the Trains forum, dated March 2, 2010:
 
    NdeM indeed operated the train between Nuevo Laredo and Mexico City, with Missouri Pacific operating between San Antonio and Laredo. Depending on the specific year being discussed, through Pullman cars, coaches and occasionally dining cars were operated from San Antonio to Mexico City without change. In the 1950s, the through Pullman and coach operated from San Antonio as the Aztec Eagle. Prior to the Texas Eagle's inauguration in August 1948, similar equipment originated in St. Louis and operated through as part of the Sunshine Special.
 
    Through St. Louis-Mexico City Pullman service was resumed in the early 1960s and continued until the Pullman Company (in USA) discontinued operations on December 31, 1968 - that date being the date of the last trans-border Pullman crossing. At this time, NdeM Pullman cars routinely operated to St. Louis and MP Pullman cars routinely operated to Mexico City. Through coach service had been reduced to a San Antonio-Nuevo Laredo coach by this time, and this service was discontinued with last car crossing bridge on January 15, 1969.
 
    The bridge itself was operated by Texas-Mexican Railway, and passenger cars were exchanged by being shoved out on bridge by MP crews, with a NdeM locomotive then coming from the Mexico side to pull the cars into Mexico to continue their journey. Customs inspections were conducted during this transfer process.
 
    It was not until after January 15, 1969 that passengers were forced to make their own arrangements to get from Laredo (MP) station to Nuevo Laredo (NdeM) station via the highway bridge. (Source; http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/169887/1864773.aspx)
 
November 1970
"Pullman also developed a major presence in Mexico beginning in the 1880s. Its earliest recorded contract there was in 1884 with the Mexican Railroad. By the end of the decade, Pullman's Palace Cars were in regular service between the United States and Mexico. The last scheduled deluxe Pullman operation in Mexico was the tri-monthly, all-vestibule Montezuma Special inaugurated in late 1889 between New Orleans and Mexico City.
 
 Pullman initially operated and maintained its sleeping- and dining-car services in Mexico as districts of its U.S. operations, with employees used interchangeably between the two countries. By an action of the Mexican government in 1934, the movement of employees across the border was ended. Dining-car operations were taken over by the government-run railway in 1961, but Pullman continued as the sleeping-car concessionaire in Mexico until November 1970, nearly two years longer than in the United States."
 
 From: (Travel by Pullman: a century of service, by Joe Welsh, Bill Howes, MBI Publishing Company, 2004; "Pullman passenger service in Mexico ended in late 1970." The Cars of Pullman, by Joe Welsh, Bill Howes, Kevin J Holland, Voyageur Press, 2010)
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Dec 4th, 2012, 7:40am
Tom -
 
You note the truly superb efforts of Don Strack, and his comprehensive http://utahrails.net/ work and site.
 
The site Index Page presents a breathtaking library of work, heavily themed to Utah History. This must be among the very  
best sites on the 'Net. The man is deserving of many thanks...
 
In the EAGLE service presentation, it supports that with my own claimed somewhat foggy recall of N. de M. Cars in the  
US East. So, what I saw was: EAGLE thru cars. Group travel for events in the East. Possibly Cars which came thru for  
Eisenhower Inaugural of 1957. Any or all of the possibilities. So, I could have seen this only on PRR, and at points along  
its WAS - NYC line. New York sightings could be a challenge, as Cars were not usually held at Penn Station - 34th St.
 
...........................Vern.......................
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: Apr 6th, 2013, 8:23pm
I always wanted to see a photo of the Aztec Eagle passenger train, no matter if between St. Louis and Laredo (USA) or between Nuevo Laredo and Mexico City (Mexico). Because I always wanted to know if all the cars of the train were painted in the same livery, or if there was always a mixture of paint schemes. Furthermore I also wanted to know what year it was streamlined or if it was streamlined at all, or if it also ran as a heavyweight-streamliner-car-mixture. But no matter how much I searched on the internet, I never found such photos or informations. I guess that this international service to Mexico was always quite an overlooked thing by railfans...
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Apr 7th, 2013, 4:55pm
Transcon, I have PAt Dorin's book on Missouri Pacific Passenger Trains during the post-war years. It discusses the service to Mexico, but I went through it expecting to find some pictures - and didn't. Not sure where else to suggest - maybe  Durbin's SOME CLASSIC TRAINS and/or MORE CLASSIC TRAINS or Beebe & Clegg's TRAINS WE RODE (2 vols). I have them, but they aren't handy at the moment so i can't check and say
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: Apr 7th, 2013, 6:02pm
Thanks for your effort Cly!
If you find any photos inside these books then please photograph them and upload them here. I would really like to see them, because I like I said before I donīt have a clue about what cartypes were used for this train and what what color scheme the cars had and if it was a color scheme for all cars or different color schemes per car. I would so love to see some photos.
But if there arenīt even any photos of it inside books, then this train is even more overlooked than I first thought of.
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Apr 8th, 2013, 4:26pm
on Apr 7th, 2013, 6:02pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Thanks for your effort Cly!
If you find any photos inside these books then please photograph them and upload them here. I would really like to see them, because I like I said before I donīt have a clue about what cartypes were used for this train and what what color scheme the cars had and if it was a color scheme for all cars or different color schemes per car. I would so love to see some photos.
But if there arenīt even any photos of it inside books, then this train is even more overlooked than I first thought of.

 
I'll look. I am sure there are some, somewhere, some time. But - I'm trying to see if i can recall any and not having much luck.
 
one place that might offer some help would be the DeGolyer Library at SMU - tremendous stock of rail photos (and other railroadiana), many from the southwest and Texas, and many available in digital form.
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Apr 8th, 2013, 10:29pm
on Apr 7th, 2013, 6:02pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Thanks for your effort Cly!
If you find any photos inside these books then please photograph them and upload them here. I would really like to see them, because I like I said before I donīt have a clue about what cartypes were used for this train and what what color scheme the cars had and if it was a color scheme for all cars or different color schemes per car. I would so love to see some photos.
But if there arenīt even any photos of it inside books, then this train is even more overlooked than I first thought of.

 
Found one Aztec Eagle photo, not dated, of ex-NYC Budd stainless steel round-end obs. Has painted letter-board with Nacionale de Mexico painted on it. In Burt Blanton's 400,000 Miles By Rail. I think it is gold lettering on red.
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Apr 9th, 2013, 7:47am
Clyde - Transcon - All -  
 
WOW! This thread, topic, line of thought will not cut us any breaks? IIRC, there were a group of ex N Y C Cars, presumably excess Pullmans,  
which known to later appear on N de M. Contrast, here, gold lettering on a red band implies ex P R R? Coulda' happened that way.
 
With the era of Streamline (Lightweight) equipment on AZTEC EAGLE, it suggests three different color treatments (which I saw years back):  
1) MOPAC EAGLE colors, which I recall particularly on B & O. 2) N de M colors, which I recall spotting on P R R, possibly B & O. 3) Possibly?  
Cars in service in classic Pullman Pool, two color greys. Else, many knew a N de M Car when they saw it! Note B & O activity on the East  
- Texas joint line, through PULLMAN services.
 
In any case, they would have been PULLMAN operated Cars. See the comments earlier in the thread, here and just above. In actual operations,  
an AZTEC EAGLE schedule may have involved the interchange of as much as two or three Cars, at TX/MEX Border? Wish we had a Photo source!
 
.............................Vern.....................
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Apr 9th, 2013, 6:31pm
As far as i know, NdM bought a substantial number of ex-NYC cars of stainless steet, light-weight persuasion late 50s or in the 60s (I may be a decade off, may have been 60s and 70s), but don't recall ever seeing anything about buys from the PRR. All the pictures i've seen on those were stainless with colored letterboards.  
 
I think there is a section on MExican service in Dubin, but will have to hunt it to see just how much. Burt Blanton discusses a couple of post-war trips and having the trhough cars pushed across the International Bridge at Laredo. And delays from Mexican customs dealing with checked baggage. I recommend 400,000 MILES BY RAIL for a picture of what rail travel for business primarily could be/was like from the 20s through the fifties.
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Apr 18th, 2013, 10:46pm
Found Arthur Dubin's SOME CLASSIC TRAINS. Didn't find any photos. Then dug MORE CLASSIC TRAINS  (companion volume to SOME CLASSIC TRAINS, also Arthur Dubin), up, and there is a chapter on Mexican  service - title Mexico de Lujo. Photos (none color) of equipment, including Swiss origin streamlined cars, ex-NYC cars and others. Heavyweights in later years and some smooth-side streamliners were painted olive green with an orange stripe below the windows. Others were red and cream or green and cream (think colors of Mexican flag).
 
Sorry i am not set up to scan or otherwise get the images. Which are probably covered by copyright - posting here would PROBABLY count as fair use, but...
 
I'll see what Beebe & Clegg have in TRAINS WE RODE - maybe something, maybe nothing.
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: May 26th, 2013, 9:08am
Ok Cly,
thanks for your effort.  
That sounds understandable. If you find some time you could still scan it and upload it and give me link to the photos via private message. You donīt have to worry, I will not post them here in the forum. But as you can see Iīm still very interested in seeing these photos, even if itīs only black & white.
But if you canīt do that it is also ok by me.
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: May 26th, 2013, 5:39pm
on May 26th, 2013, 9:08am, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Ok Cly,
thanks for your effort.  
That sounds understandable. If you find some time you could still scan it and upload it and give me link to the photos via private message. You donīt have to worry, I will not post them here in the forum. But as you can see Iīm still very interested in seeing these photos, even if itīs only black & white.
But if you canīt do that it is also ok by me.

 
Might be easier to have your library get you copies of the Dubin and Blanton books, and I have always found the DeGolyer helpful if you will just contact them with what you need.
Posted by: atlpete Posted on: Mar 5th, 2014, 9:13pm
Wow, haven't been for awhile but I do still like some of the topics here and this string's subject in particular; My mother immigrated to Mexico City in the late forties, living there and in Argentina for ten years. She rode a through Pullman from St,Louis all the way to the DF and found it both interesting and tiresome.  
I've always been interested in this Eagle Service, both the MP's and NdeM 's.
Some observations for any who are still interested,  
There's an excellent web-site as well as a fairly new Wayner volume on the US cars sold to Mexico.
The site here http://www.pullmanproject.com/Mexico.htm
     Stout's volume on MP passenger trains "Route of the Eagles" has a great 3/4 color shot of MP's #1 The Aztec Eagle "plodding" along behind an SG Geep in 1966 , two bags, and RPO all HW's and reblt HW coach and lw 10-6. Not sure if the through car service had  ended by '66.
In Morning Sun's MP color guide, a pre-war NYC 10-5 Cascade Series in NdeM scheme shows up in a St.Louis as the Mexico City car in 1963. Neat car, most all of the '38 lightweights were shelled off after the NYC's big train-off in the late fifties and the death of the " ' Vanderbilt", this one in 1960.
Neat trains, sadly long gone now.
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: Jan 24th, 2017, 12:07am
Hello guys,
I have 2 questions concerning this topic:
 
1. Has the MP/T&P Sunshine Special ever been an All Pullman train? I guess this train certainly featured coaches in the 40s, but what about the 30s and 20s? Being the premier train on the system, I could imagine very well it was an All Pullman train without coaches, but Iīm not sure as I didnīt find out any info about this yet.
 
2. Does anybody of you know where I can find photos of the MP/T&P/NdeM City of Mexico? This exclusive All Pullman train operated only between 1937 and 1940, so I guess photos are very rare. I know that in 1940, the consist looked approximately like this: a baggage, a 13 section sleeper, three 12-1 sleepers, a diner, two 8-1-2 sleepers, a 6-3 sleeper and a solarium buffet lounge observation. But photos would be highly appreciated, as I would love to model this train and because Iīm curious anyway to see how it looked like.
Posted by: Norm_Anderson Posted on: Jan 24th, 2017, 4:09pm
Hi, Transcon,  
 
The City of Mexico was apparently a once-a-week Limited, touted as a de Luxe service, so I am certain that equipment would have been top-of-the-line.  Locomotives (steam, I am certain) would have been large, fast, and powerful-- and probably lettered for Missouri Pacific, or Texas & Pacific, or Nacionales de Mexico, depending on which portion of the route you wish to model.
 
The cars you have listed in your consist all appear to be heavyweight floorplans.  During the time frame of 1937 to 1940, Sleeping Cars were owned by (and lettered for) The Pullman Company, and would have said P U L L M A N on the side.  The Baggage Car, Dining Car, and Observation Lounge Car would have been owned by the railroad, and would have carried the railroad's name above the windows.  Sleeping Cars would have been named (centered on the car side below the windows).
 
Here is a link to some more information about the train, including "boarding numbers" for the cars (the little numbers you would have seen in the window next to the door).
 
www.arkansasrailroadhistory.com/Name-Trains-MP/Name-Trains-Notes.htm
 
I'll keep looking for photos and other info.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
Posted by: jmlaboda Posted on: Jan 24th, 2017, 4:19pm
Quote:
The Diner would likely have said "Diner" or "Dining Car," and the Observation probably would have said "Solarium."

 
Most roads never applied the words "Diner" and "Dining Car" to their diners, choosing instead to either number or name their diners to make them stand out in consists.  As for the use of the word "Solarium"...  
 
Out of many thousands of shots I have seen over the years I have never seen such used except that it be as a part of the car's name.  Most were Pullman owned just as were the sleepers and those that were Pullman owned carried names.
Posted by: Norm_Anderson Posted on: Jan 24th, 2017, 6:35pm
Jerry, let me get this egg off my face, and defer to your expertise in this area.  I've removed the offending line in my last post above.
 
Transcon, you might consider having a look at Jerrys' website
 
http://www.passcarphotos.info

 
It is one of the best photographic archives out there.  By looking through the Missouri Pacific and Ferrocarriles Nacionales de Mexico (located under "N") sections, you might find photos you will find helpful.  
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: Jan 25th, 2017, 3:44am
Hi Norm,
that link you gave me (arkansasrailroadhistory) is exactly the source where I have my consist information from. Itīs actually the only info that I have about this train except for a picture of a baggage tag of that train, showing the logos of MP, T&P and NdeM as well as the sun pyramid of Teotihuacan. All I still need are some photos of that train. Although I know that it used typcial standard heavyweight equipment, I would still like to see some photos of that train. This is why the passenger car photo indes isnīt really helpful in this case because I wanna see a photo from the time when that train operated (1937-1940). A couple of photos of the whole train would be great.
The Pullman sleepers it carried were all standard / common types, and most of them are available in HO scale (Walthers and Branchline). Only the 13 section sleeper isnīt available, but I would simply use a 14 section sleeper instead as a compromise. Another good thing is, that the heavyweight diner and baggage by Walthers are based on MP prototypes which makes them just perfectly suitable for this train I guess. And yes, I know that all the sleepers were lettered "Pullman" and that only the baggage, diner and observation would be lettered for the participating roads. So I decided to model a City of Mexico with Walthers and Branchline heavyweight cars that looks exactly like this:
1. Walthers Baggage NdeM
2. Branchline 14 Section Sleeper Pullman (prototype: 13 sections!)
3. Branchline 12-1 Sleeper Pullman
4. Branchline 12-1 Sleeper Pullman
5. Branchline 12-1 Sleeper Pullman
6. Walthers Diner MP
7. Branchline 8-1-2 Sleeper Pullman
8. Branchline 8-1-2 Sleeper Pullman
9. Branchline 6-3 Sleeper Pullman
10. Walthers Solarium Observation T&P (prototype: buffet lounge observation!)
As you can see, it would feature a NdeM baggage, a MP diner and T&P observation. Iīm pretty sure all cars would be painted dark green / Pullman green. For the T&P observations and MP diners, I also have the correct numbers. But a correct number of a NdeM baggage is still unknown to me. At least for that era. Also I would like to know, if NdeM heavyweight cars already featured that orange stripe below the windows in the late 30s, or if this feature came up only after the war. What I also would like to know of course are the names of the Pullman sleepers that were used on the City of Mexico. I guess most names had spanish or aztec / native american names, but Iīm not sure yet as I donīt have any info at all about it.
What I find very interesting about this operation is that it was handled twice by MP and that MP didnīt run it on their own tracks all the way through but handled it over to the T&P between Texarkana and Longview.  
For now, I would have my City of Mexico being pulled by my T&P I-1a 2-10-4, what means that I would model the T&P portion of it. I also thought about modeling the whole run, which would mean I would need to use a MP 4-6-2 for the St. Louis-Texarkana leg, the T&P 2-10-4 for the Texarkana-Longview leg, a MP 4-8-2 for the Longview-Laredo leg and a NdeM 4-6-2 for the Laredo-Mexico City leg (that will be expensive especially since these MP steamers are only avaiable in brass so far!). I could also imagine very well that even though this train probably never operated with consist longer than 10 cars, it might have had been doubleheaded with NdeM Pacifics for the climb up the Sierra Madre Oriental southwest of Monterrey. During that time NdeM also owned 4-6-4īs, 4-8-0īs and 2-6-6-2īs, so maybe even some of these types might have pulled or at least helped this train.
To Jerry: yes, the usage of the word "Solarium" might not be appropriate for every enclosed heavyweight observation car. But T&P as well as MP used enclosed heavyweight observation cars starting in 1927, which featured a so called "sun room" at the rear end. So sun room ----> solarium! Although Iīm pretty sure these sun rooms werenīt used for tanning back in those days!
Btw: I contacted the people at mopac.org for more infos and photos about this train, but they couldnīt help me and told me to register on the forum there (which isnīt visible for non-members) and ask there, but unfortunately nobody has ever answered.
Posted by: jmlaboda Posted on: Jan 25th, 2017, 4:02am
Quote:
2. Branchline 14 Section Sleeper Pullman (prototype: 13 sections!)

 
I am not sure you are correct about this car being a 14 Section labeled as 13 Section.  The only "13" Section sleepers ever operated by Pullman were 12 Section - 1 Drawing Room cars that were reassigned to Tourist Car service, with the Drawing Room being labeled as the 13th Section.  I suspect that this is indeed what you have here.
 
Something to keep in mind about such cars... they did not have air conditioning (though some cars did retain air ducts on the roof left over from their earlier "named" car status... underbody equipment removed).
 
There recently was a file posted to the Passenger Car List Yahoo! Groups list that dealt with Pullman car assignments.  Let me see if I can find it and see if there is any listing about cars being used in Mexico City service... this may help to identify the Pullmans that were involved.
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: Jan 25th, 2017, 2:16pm
To jmlaboda:
Thatīs a very interesting thing you say. But why should a 12-1 sleeper be called 13 section sleeper when the drawing room is still there? Why should a drawing room be labeled as 13th section just because the car is assigned to Tourist Car service but not rebuilt inside?
On the arkansasrailroadhistory page this car is described as "13 sec Tourist (N.A.C.) M-601". Iīm not familiar with these abbreviations and numbers, but could N.A.C. stand for "non air conditioned"? Also the 601 number of that 13 section sleeper differs from the other 12-1 sleepers listed there who all appear to be from a "500 series".
Anyway itīs weird why that Tourist Car would not have air conditioning while the rest of the train had. MP/T&P were pioneers when it comes to air conditioning because in 1933 the Sunshine Special became the first train west of the Mississippi to be air conditioned, so it would be logical to assume that the even more exclusive City of Mexico was thoroughly air conditioned as well (except for the baggage car).
To be honest I donīt even know if this train featured a baggage car or a baggage dormitory car on the headend (Iīm pretty sure though that it never featured a RPO because it operated on a weekly basis). Would be interesting to know. I only know that the train staff was required to speak english and spanish fluently, but that doesnīt clarify if the staff rode all the way through and therefore would have needed to sleep in a baggage dormitory car for example or if there was a crew-change between MP/T&P and NdeM staff at the border.
Back to the 13 section Tourist Car: If this car didnīt have air conditioning ducts, I could use a Rivarossi 12-1 sleeper for it because the Rivarossi 12-1 sleepers were produced without these ducts (from pre air conditioning days). But since Rivarossi heavyweights are way less detailed than the Branchline and Walthers heavyweights, I would prefer to use a Branchline 12-1 sleeper despite having these ducts simply because I want all cars of this train to have the same general style and level of detail.
Oh yes, thank you in advance already! It would be really nice if you could find out the car names of those Pullmans that were involved in the City of Mexico. So I could custom produce decals with the correct names (as well as numbers for the MP, T&P and NdeM cars).
Posted by: jmlaboda Posted on: Jan 26th, 2017, 7:13am
Quote:
But why should a 12-1 sleeper be called 13 section sleeper when the drawing room is still there? Why should a drawing room be labeled as 13th section just because the car is assigned to Tourist Car service but not rebuilt inside?

 
That is how they classified the Drawing Room... don't know why but it was just the way they dealt with DRs on tourist cars (the same was also true of cars that had Compartments).  Part of it may have been by the price to simplify things for station clerks...
 
Quote:
On the arkansasrailroadhistory page this car is described as "13 sec Tourist (N.A.C.) M-601". I not familiar with these abbreviations and numbers, but could N.A.C. stand for "non air conditioned"? Also the 601 number of that 13 section sleeper differs from the other 12-1 sleepers listed there who all appear to be from a "500 series".

 
Not sure what the story on NAC nor the numbers mean but it could be that NAC is indeed "not AC".  The numbers may be the assigned number for the specific car for that particular train but without knowing more about what Pullman did in that regard it really is hard to say...
 
Quote:
Anyway it weird why that Tourist Car would not have air conditioning while the rest of the train had. MP/T&P were pioneers when it comes to air conditioning because in 1933 the Sunshine Special became the first train west of the Mississippi to be air conditioned, so it would be logical to assume that the even more exclusive City of Mexico was thoroughl y air conditioned as well (except for the baggage car).

 
Not really.  Being the cheapest seats on the train one has to expect something less than red carpet treatment.  Pullman chose not to keep AC on the cars that previously had it because it was cheaper to maintain a given car compared to repairs needed when the AC wasn't working... when you are trying to cut costs as far as tickets go you have to find any way you can to cut ticket costs so a profit can be made.  Same thing nearly ever company in the U.S. handles the need to keep costs down... you would be hard pressed to find a company that didn't.
 
Staffing of the train largely would involve train crews and Pullman staff with the train crews changing when the interchange was made and at specific points along the route.  The Pullman staff, on the other hand, would have likely stayed with the train to and from end points and could be staff from either the U.S. or Mexico (likely had a bit of both) as long as they were qualified.  The Pullman staff would have been accommodated in any of the sleepers that had Sections since dorm space was a bit of a rarity until later on (very few heavyweight dorm cars were ever used, and then it was later on as cars were freed up from specific assignments).
 
I think its fair to believe that the train operated with a baggage car since passengers more time than not have more luggage than they can comfortably situate in their specific accommodations, especially so in Sections... the baggage could have been from any of the partners involved in the operation and may even involve cars from other roads as well given how Railway Express Agency kept things moved around.  Hopefully it will yet be possible to find out what Pullmans were used regularly but it may be that any of the cars known to have gone to Nacionales de Mexico would be a good place to start.  Some of those names can be found on the Nacionales de Mexico pages of the Passenger Car Photo Index, link to that page is below...
 
http://passcarphotos.info/Indices/NdeM1.htm
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Jan 26th, 2017, 8:19am
Jerry - Lodge Members -  
 
Concur with your detailed rationale. That being, the "13 S, NAC" designator very much appears to have been the "crew car".  
So to infer any of the berth spaces not for booking by the general traveling public. The single "DR" possibly served as an office?
 
The "Official Register" of the time possibly reported the particular car(s) subject an explanatory note. In print, possibly shown  
as "12S, DR, NAC" with note it considered as "13 S, NAC"?
 
................. Vern .........................
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: Jan 27th, 2017, 1:46pm
Hi Vern,
do you believe the crew was so numerous that it would require a whole sleeper to use as crew car? I guess that would be very unusual, wouldnīt it? Anyway, if that is indeed the case, it would be maybe a proof that crews didnīt change at the border but stayed on the train all the way through. So this crew car could serve as their "living place" during the one-week-round-trip to and from Mexico City.
 
Any infos anyone about if the Sunshine Special ever operated as an All Pullman train as well?
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Jan 27th, 2017, 2:12pm
transcon - Lodge Members -
 
Well, own inference and conjecture something of a "... best guess and by golly ..." estimation. Here, we address the once weekly schedule,  
with its own equipment demands. In the detailed consist (shown earlier in this thread), nothing there suggests any variety of "dormitory" cars.  
 
We are agreed here about concerns of a "13S, NAC" sleeper. Likely a 12S-DR wherein the berth space not for public sale? So that the "13S"  
could have provided crew dormitory spaces? As the train a joint line schedule, serving US and Mexico, the DR on the "13S" Car would have  
provided space to keep up with requisite "paper work". (An Official Register of the time could prove helpful.)
 
Compare, in past there were lines which operated revenue cars with Lounge space. But, some of these, in operation, served as "Lounge -  
Dormitory" cars. At this late date, it is a mystery? Per your request, your writer has no files or photos about this particular train...
 
....................... Vern .........................
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: Jan 27th, 2017, 6:46pm
I donīt know any heavyweight lounge dormitory cars. Werenīt lounge dormitory cars something more common with streamliner cars? Top trains like the 20th Century Limited and Super Chief had these.
But again, baggage dormitory cars are equally rare among heavyweight cars.
 
Going a bit off topic: The only US train I know so far where crews used sleeping cars was the Olympian Hiawatha. In the very last years of operation, during off season the Touralux sleeper used to be occupied by the crew rather than by passengers as open section sleepers were very unpopular by the late 50s and early 60s so that this particular car often ran without any passengers. So the MILW staff moved from the baggage dormitory to the Touralux sleeper because the berths there certainly were more comfy than the bunks of the baggage dormitory.
Posted by: HwyHaulier Posted on: Jan 28th, 2017, 11:00am
on Jan 27th, 2017, 6:46pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I donīt know any heavyweight lounge dormitory cars. Werenīt lounge dormitory cars something more common with streamliner cars?...  

 
Transcon - Lodge Members -
 
As a disclaimer and caveat. Your writer with much experiences riding B&O ages back. The line notable with its good Shops,  
and its resourceful work in update and modernizing "HW" rolling stock.  So that, on dates in the early to mid 1960, seem to  
recall reworked HW types used on B&O #5 and #6. For its operating convenience, it may have had its reasons in provision of  
some dorm space, and rest of cars in use as lounges. Else, the schedule ran with newer "LW" equipment. And, as B&O ran  
some modernized car types, we may only guess the types were not unheard of on NYC and PRR?
 
Consider the car at issue. Noted as a "13S, NAC" sleeper. The fact it used on a US - Mexico schedule, and on what a weekly  
operation, permits an inference it provided crew dorm space. Too, and in the era, notes on loading of the baggage car. Such the  
case, then with it requirements of U S Customs inspection at border crossings. Yes?
 
Is that in line with what were MOPAC System operating policies of the time?
 
....................... Vern .....................
 
Posted by: Norm_Anderson Posted on: Jan 30th, 2017, 11:27am
on Jan 27th, 2017, 6:46pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)

I don't know any heavyweight lounge dormitory cars.

 
Transcon, I am not familiar with Missouri Pacific practice, but I do know that several top-tier Santa Fe Limiteds in the Heavyweight era carried a car that was listed as "10 Sections - Lounge."
 
Jerry is correct that the usual practice for Pullman Porters was to occupy one of the Sections aboard their assigned cars (to be near their patrons 24 hours a day), but the Dining Car and Lounge Car staffs required dormitory space of their own.  On Santa Fe's de Luxe, for example, this ten-Section Lounge  Car carried the only open Sections on the train; and I believe it is a reasonable conjecture that these Sections would have been used for crew dormitory space.
 
Again, based only on my limited knowledge of Santa Fe practice-- though locomotive crews changed every three or four hours, and Conductors, Brakemen, and Chair Car Porters had somewhat longer assigned runs, I believe that Pullman Porters remained with their assigned cars for the duration of the run, and likewise Dining Car and Lounge Car staffs would travel endpoint-to-endpoint.
 
It also seems plausible that the 13-Section car might be used as Dormitory space-- its position all the way forward would minimize public traffic past the sleeping crew.  Perhaps some Sections were set aside for the crew (at the forward end of the car, perhaps), and the remainder were sold as public accommodations?  Again, I have no proof, but it seems like a reasonable conjecture.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
Posted by: Norm_Anderson Posted on: Jan 31st, 2017, 8:09pm
on Jan 27th, 2017, 1:46pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Any infos anyone about if the Sunshine Special ever operated as an All Pullman train as well?
 

 
I did a bit of checking, and could not find any evidence that the Sunshine Special was all-Pullman.  I saw a 1931 timetable that listed Chair Cars and coaches in the consist, as well as Pullmans.
 
The Sunshine Special was apparently the flagship from its introduction in 1915 until it was upstaged by the Diesel-powered Texas Eagle in 1948.  During those 33 years, the Sunshine Special was advertised as "the low-altitude, mild-weather route" between the Midwest (St. Louis) and California, connecting to Southern Pacific trains at El Paso.  Missouri Pacific was apparently invested in this service.
 
However, it was rather standard US practice that, if passenger demand required running a train in more than one section, the first section was almost always all-Pullman, with the Chair Cars comprising the second section (with its own Dining Car and Lounge Car).  I would be very surprised if this event did not happen, at least on occasion, through the prosperous 1920s.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: Feb 1st, 2017, 4:21am
Hi Norm
Well I heard that the Sunshine Special ran in two sections (one sleeper and one coach) during WWII and also during holiday season in 1946 and 1947. Chances are high that this was also the case in the 20s. I just wanted to know if it ever ran as All-Pullman train when not being split into sections. But it seems like the City of Mexico was the only MP/T&P train who did that.
You mentioned a 10 section lounge car on the De Luxe. Itīs the first time I hear of such a car on this train.  
As far as I know it had a baggage club lounge, a diner, a parlor lounge observation and 4 sleepers of which all were All-Room sleepers; means none of them had sections. Because of this I assumed that the crew didnīt stay on board all the way through but was regularily exchanged, so that no sleeping space was needed for the crewmembers.
Posted by: Norm_Anderson Posted on: Feb 1st, 2017, 8:54am
Transcon, I may have been mistaken about the 10-Section Lounge Car on the de Luxe.  I was unaware that this train used a Parlor Lounge for its Observation.
 
The 10-Section Lounge Cars were used on the flagship California Limited at that time.  This floorplan could also be found on the heavyweight Chief and Super Chief (which, as a heavyweight train during its initial year of operation, used hand-picked cars from the Chief pool).
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
Posted by: George_Harris Posted on: Feb 1st, 2017, 10:13pm
I don't doubt that the Sunshine Special ran in two sections, and likely did almost normally.  In its early years, for certain as late as 1953, as I have a MoPac schedule for that year, the Texas Eagle was scheduled to run in two sections, with the sections divided by destination, into a West Texas Section (Dallas, Ft. Worth and west) and a South Texas Section (Houston, San Antonio and south).  Each section had both Pullmans and Coaches.
Posted by: Transcon Posted on: Feb 4th, 2017, 4:07pm
Well George,
what you are talking about is not whether it was split into coach and sleeper sections but whether it was split into sections for different destinations.
Yes, the Texas Eagle just took over the operational style of the Sunshine Special.
The Sunshine Special was always a train which had 2 destinations: San Antonio and El Paso. It was always split up in Longview. The Texas Eagle continued the same thing: at Longview, it was split up: The South Texas Eagle for San Antonio (with sleepers to Mexico) and the West Texas Eagle for El Paso (including a Dallas-Los Angeles SP sleeper which continued to Los Angeles on the Sunset Limited in the early and mid 50s).  
My question would be, if the Sunshine Special ever was operated in 4 sections after Longview:
One coach and one sleeper section to San Antonio and one coach and one sleeper section to El Paso.
Posted by: ClydeDET Posted on: Apr 20th, 2017, 2:36pm
on Feb 4th, 2017, 4:07pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Well George,
what you are talking about is not whether it was split into coach and sleeper sections but whether it was split into sections for different destinations.
Yes, the Texas Eagle just took over the operational style of the Sunshine Special.
The Sunshine Special was always a train which had 2 destinations: San Antonio and El Paso. It was always split up in Longview. The Texas Eagle continued the same thing: at Longview, it was split up: The South Texas Eagle for San Antonio (with sleepers to Mexico) and the West Texas Eagle for El Paso (including a Dallas-Los Angeles SP sleeper which continued to Los Angeles on the Sunset Limited in the early and mid 50s).  
My question would be, if the Sunshine Special ever was operated in 4 sections after Longview:
One coach and one sleeper section to San Antonio and one coach and one sleeper section to El Paso.

 
 
Wouldn't care to say "Never" about what the operation of the Texas Eagle was, but I can't seem to find anything about what happened after Longview involving more than one section to each of the designations mentioned. Meaning just that - I failed to find an indication of such. I sort of doubt that passenger loads would have required it, but - well, if they did, then the MP would have done whatever they needed to.