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PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
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   Author  Topic: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion  (Read 963 times)
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #80 on: Mar 15th, 2016, 10:11pm »
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Thought....
 
The western end of DL&W's passenger service was Buffalo, in fairly close proximity to Niagara Falls.
 
Had the DL&W offered direct through Pullman service to Niagara Falls (via Buffalo) what railroads/connections might have been used to forward the cars to the Falls? (either the American side or the Canadian side)
 
Appreciate your input....thank you in advance...
 
"L.F.L."


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Henry
Historian
Posts: 6100
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #81 on: Mar 16th, 2016, 2:23am »
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DL&W would have (may actually have at some point) used the NYC to get to the Falls. I believe that the DL&W and the NKP offered through service between New York City and Chicago with a free stop over at Niagara Falls. I don't know how travelers would have have reached the Falls from Buffalo. The DL&W and Michigan Central (NYC) offered through sleeping car service at one point so the DL&W and NYC did have passenger car interchange experience in Buffalo. I don't recall the specific arrangements and don't have my reference materials at hand at the moment.
 
DL&W and CN interchanged cars via the Black Rock Yard and International Bridge to Fort Erie, Ontario and the CN had a line to the Falls from Fort Erie so theoretically the DL&W and CN could have offered joint service to the Falls.
 
There are other possible alternatives that get a bit far fetched. Erie had its own line to the Falls. LV had its own line to Tonawanda and trackage rights over the NYC to get to its Suspension Bridge Yard. Pere Marquette had trackage rights over the Michigan Central from the Detroit River to Niagara Falls, later inherited by the C&O. I think they may have had trackage rights to Buffalo over the Erie. I know they had trackage rights later over the EL after the merger. In the interurban days the International Railway Corp (IRC) offered interurban service from Buffalo to Niagara Falls. They even built a "High Speed" line at one point.
 
There were lots of possibilities, but I don't know if it actually happened, at least in the later years.


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #82 on: Mar 16th, 2016, 8:12am »
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Henry:
 
Greatly appreciate you taking the time to provide such a detailed response to my inquiry.......thank you!
 
Though I was already aware of through NKP Pullmans to Hoboken via the DL&W (later E-L) at Buffalo, but did not know of the free stopover at Niagara Falls.
 
Nor was I aware of the DL&W interchanging with the CN (among other things!)
 
By the time the last E-L passenger trains pulled out of Buffalo in 1969 (the "NEW YORK MAIL" and "THE OWL"), they were primarily mail/express trains with a coach for whoever chose to ride overnight to Buffalo from Hoboken.
 
Earlier in the decade, both of these trains lost their sleepers entirely;  sleeper service on the E-L ended east of Binghamton in 1962.
 
"L.F.L."
 
BTW: In the summer 1966, my folks and I traveled up to the Falls via a NYC excursion out of GCT ($32.00!); We left GCT at midnight; at Buffalo, we boarded chartered buses to take us the final leg to the Falls.
 
My only regret was that we had no time to linger at and explore the monolithic BUFFALO CENTRAL......man, what a station!!
 
Where did 50 years go..........


« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2016, 4:23pm by CLASSB » Logged
Henry
Historian
Posts: 6100
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #83 on: Mar 16th, 2016, 11:31am »
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To throw another hat into the ring, PRR had trackage rights over the DL&W from DM tower in East Buffalo to the International Bridge to reach Fort Erie across the border.
 
Wabash/N&W also had some kind of rights from the International Bridge to East Buffalo, but I am not sure if that was via the DL&W piggybacking on PRR's rights or via the Erie. Wabash did have a freight house in East Buffalo that was actually on the PRR. In EL years they ran over the ex-DL&W from Black Rock to reach EL's Bison Yard. I don't know when the Wabash/N&W stopped using the East Buffalo freight house, but it could be reached either by the DL&W/PRR interchange at DM Tower or via the Erie's connection to the PRR in East Buffalo at FW Tower (which was a fantastic spot to railfan!), a hop, skip and jump from Wabash's freight house.


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #84 on: Mar 16th, 2016, 11:54am »
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Henry:
 
Again, THANK YOU...this is just the sort of rail trivia I can really get into!
 
On a sort of sidenote, in 1969, the 15th Safari of the "PHOEBE SNOW CLUB"  (this was a private "club", carrying railroad officials to the annual meeting of the Purchases and Materials Management Division of the Association of American Railroads from Hoboken to Chicago) made its final run.
 
With the cream of E-L through equipment available due to numerous train-offs in recent years, this consist was first class, to say the least!
 
It carried eight sleepers, three from the E-L and five ex-PRR cars, leased from the PC.
 
Two ex-PHOEBE SNOW diners were also in the consist, as was famed Tavern-Lounge #790, which, along with its sister car, served the celebrated and glamourous "Miss Snow" until late 1966.
 
This had to be one fine train, indeed.......had to have been a hoot-and-a-half seeing PRR sleepers at Hoboken!
 
This trip, incidently, would mark the last run of this special train, once it arrived back in Hoboken.....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2016, 4:22pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Posts: 4789
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #85 on: Mar 16th, 2016, 3:06pm »
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on Mar 16th, 2016, 11:54am, L. F. Lincoln wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Henry:
 
Again, THANK YOU...this is just the sort of rail trivia I can really get into!
 
On a sort of sidenote, in 1969, the 15th Safari of the "PHOEBE SNOW CLUB"  (this was a private "club", carrying railroad officials to the annual meeting of the Purchases and Materials Management Division of the Association of American Railroads from Hoboken to Chicago) made its final run.
 
With the cream of E-L through equipment available due to numerous train-offs in recent years, this consist was first class, to say the least!
 
It carried eight sleepers, three from the E-L and five ex-PRR cars, leased from the PC.
 
Two ex-PHOEBE SNOW diners were also in the consist, as was famed Tavern-Lounge #790, which, along with its sister car, served the celebrated and glamourous "Miss Snow" until late 1966.
 
This had to be one fine train, indeed.......had to have been a hoot-and-a-half seeing PRR sleepers at Hoboken!
 
This run, incidentely, was the last run of this special train, once it arrived back in Hoboken.....
 
"L.F.L."

 
That would have been one to see - or, even more, to ride on.


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #86 on: Mar 16th, 2016, 3:16pm »
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Clyde:
 
I could not agree MORE, my friend!
 
Strangely, I have only read of this interesting train only once (in Karl Zimmerman's "ERIE-LACKAWANNA EAST"), and have not, to date, seen even one photo of the train, either at Hoboken, or at Chicago (or en route, for that matter)
 
Seeing an E-L train at Hoboken carrying several ex-PRR sleepers HAD to have made for one heckuva sight!  
 
"L.F.L."


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ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #87 on: Mar 16th, 2016, 9:59pm »
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on Mar 16th, 2016, 3:16pm, L. F. Lincoln wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde:
 
I could not agree MORE, my friend!
 
Strangely, I have only read of this interesting train only once (in Karl Zimmerman's "ERIE-LACKAWANNA EAST"), and have not, to date, seen even one photo of the train, either at Hoboken, or at Chicago (or en route, for that matter)
 
Seeing an E-L train at Hoboken carrying several ex-PRR sleepers HAD to have made for one heckuva sight!  
 
"L.F.L."

 
Yes, expect it would have been quite a sight all right.


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #88 on: Mar 16th, 2016, 10:02pm »
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All:
 
I am just recalling a most interesting train passing through Denville, NJ (either in the late 1950's or very early 1960's), as seen in one of my old MARK 1 E-L/DL&W videos.
 
This lengthy train was either a very late DL&W era- train or very early E-L; E-8's were in charge, and, in addition to the "normal" head-end cars and coaches, there were also several heavyweight Pullmans, from the SP, PRR, SOUTHERN, and PULLMAN.
 
I have no idea if this was a special of some sorts, but the consist was, tro say the least, more than tantilizing for varnish buffs.......
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2016, 10:04pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #89 on: Mar 16th, 2016, 11:25pm »
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 Another  reminder of the vast complexities of Pullman operations back in the day can be seen on Page #115 of "MANHATTAN GATEWAY: NEW YORK'S PENNSYLVANIA STATION" (Middleton)
 
The 1940's-era photo shows several well-dressed young ladies clustered around a huge Rube Goldberg-like contraction known as a "Wassell Unit"; This was a rotating Pullman reservation board with nine revolving drums that provided almost 44,000 peg holes into which colored markers could be placed to indicate the reservation status of space on a number of cars for the next 90 days........
 
"L.F.L."
 


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #90 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 12:38am »
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on Mar 16th, 2016, 11:31am, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)
To throw another hat into the ring, PRR had trackage rights over the DL&W from DM tower in East Buffalo to the International Bridge to reach Fort Erie across the border.
 
Wabash/N&W also had some kind of rights from the International Bridge to East Buffalo, but I am not sure if that was via the DL&W piggybacking on PRR's rights or via the Erie. Wabash did have a freight house in East Buffalo that was actually on the PRR. In EL years they ran over the ex-DL&W from Black Rock to reach EL's Bison Yard. I don't know when the Wabash/N&W stopped using the East Buffalo freight house, but it could be reached either by the DL&W/PRR interchange at DM Tower or via the Erie's connection to the PRR in East Buffalo at FW Tower (which was a fantastic spot to railfan!), a hop, skip and jump from Wabash's freight house.

 
 
Henry:
 
The following might be of interest to you......
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_and_Susquehanna_Railroad
 
"L.F.L."


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #91 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 12:45am »
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E. Buffalo and PULLMAN (WAGNER PALACE CAR CO.)......
 
In later years, the PULLMAN Company used this massive facility, which finally closed down in 1959.
 
http://www.forgottenbuffalo.com/forgottenbflofeatures/pullmanwagnercomplex.html
 
(courtesy: forgottenbuffalo.com)


« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2016, 12:49am by CLASSB » Logged
Henry
Historian
Posts: 6100
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #92 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 2:01am »
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on Mar 17th, 2016, 12:38am, L. F. Lincoln wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 
Henry:
 
The following might be of interest to you......
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_and_Susquehanna_Railroad
 
"L.F.L."

 
I have a couple of books on the B&S and dad and I explored some of its rare remains back in the 1990s. The Buffalo end of the line was pretty much defunct before WWI.


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Henry
Historian
Posts: 6100
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
  WagnerWestShoreRoundhouses1894Atlas.jpg - 154684 Bytes
« Reply #93 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 2:15am »
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on Mar 17th, 2016, 12:45am, L. F. Lincoln wrote:       (Click here for original message)
E. Buffalo and PULLMAN (WAGNER PALACE CAR CO.)......
 
In later years, the PULLMAN Company used this massive facility, which finally closed down in 1959.
 
http://www.forgottenbuffalo.com/forgottenbflofeatures/pullmanwagnercomplex.html
 
(courtesy: forgottenbuffalo.com)

 
That's right by CSX' ex-NYC Frontier Yard. I used to visit a graveyard shift yardmaster at Bailey Ave Tower, which is a couple of hundred yards from the still standing Wagner/Pullman roundhouse.
 
Here's map snippet from my 1894 city atlas showing the West Shore and Wagner roundhouses. Note the DL&W's Black Rock branch, which crossed NYC's East Buffalo/Frontier Yard on bridges and an embankment.  
Bailey Tower would be built just above the "R.R." letters in "West Shore R.R. Co." by their roundhouse.  


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/PassengerTrains/WagnerWestShoreRoundhouses1894Atlas.jpg
Click Image to Resize

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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #94 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 10:09am »
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Henry:
 
Going by your personal memories, and, also, by what I have read (and seen in vintage photos) over the years, it is obvious that Buffalo was one heckuva railroad town back in the day, wonderfully vibrant and alive with virtually non-stop passenger and freight operations, as was the case also for Hoboken and Jersey City, many eons ago!
 
Going back to the E-L for a moment; until 1965, Trains #'s 31 and 32 operated as connections to the "PHOEBE SNOW", running between Buffalo and Hornell, over the former ERIE.
 
In 1962, the magnificent DL&W terminal was abandoned, and the remaining E-L trains (until 1969) operated out of a small facility at Babcock St., which was far more economical for the cash-strapped E-L to operate than the lofty old waterfront depot.
 
Just think of the busy PULLMAN operations that once entered and departed Buffalo, back in the heyday of the American Passenger Train..........
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2016, 10:15am by CLASSB » Logged
Henry
Historian
Posts: 6100
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #95 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 10:35am »
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That is correct, the EL ended its Buffalo passenger service with a pathetic excuse for station 2-1/2 miles east of downtown instead of at the beautiful Lackawanna Terminal. As a teenager I explored the ruins of Lackawanna Terminal shortly before the headhouse was demolished. I actually rode my bicycle down the Bush trainsheds and into the building.
 
It must have been quite an interesting place when the B&O and NKP along with the DL&W were using it.


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #96 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 10:52am »
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on Mar 17th, 2016, 10:35am, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)
That is correct, the EL ended its Buffalo passenger service with a pathetic excuse for station 2-1/2 miles east of downtown instead of at the beautiful Lackawanna Terminal. As a teenager I explored the ruins of Lackawanna Terminal shortly before the headhouse was demolished. I actually rode my bicycle down the Bush trainsheds and into the building.
 
It must have been quite an interesting place when the B&O and NKP along with the DL&W were using it.

 
 
Henry:
 
I have seen many pictures depicting the ruins of the old DL&W depot; the interior looked like it was somewhere in London after a Blitz attack, and the vast, echoing, rusting Bush sheds eerily recalled the abandoned CNJ sheds at Jersey City.
 
How such a magnificent structure was allowed to decay and fall prey to mindless vandals over a period of so many years, is totally beyond my comprehension.
 
Though the sheds still survive, that awe-inspiring depot should have been declared a landmark and restored to serve another purpose.
 
The fair and lovely Miss Snow, certainly, is still in mourning........
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2016, 10:54am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #97 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 10:57am »
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Recalling Miss Snow's palatial Buffalo estate.......
 
http://www.forgottenbuffalo.com/forgottenbuffalolost/thedlwterminal.html
 
(courtesy: forgottenbuffalo.com)


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Henry
Historian
Posts: 6100
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
  DLW_BushTrainsheds_2015BuffaloNKPHTS_ConventionTour_09-25-2015_HP7D5357.jpg - 165647 Bytes
« Reply #98 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 11:17am »
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Here is what's left of the Bush trainsheds at DL&W's Buffalo Terminal. This is from the 2015 Nickel Plate Road Historical & Technical Society Buffalo convention tour, September 25, 2015.


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/PassengerTrains/DLW_BushTrainsheds_2015BuffaloNKPHTS_ConventionTour_09-25-2015_HP7D5357.jpg
Click Image to Resize

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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #99 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 12:31pm »
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Henry:
 
Those old DL&W sheds are are in a far more stable and presentable state than the former CNJ sheds at Jersey City; with the exception of some token "emergency stabilization" that took place some 40-odd years ago, the sprawling sheds (the largest ever built) have been allowed to slowly decay and crumble in the salt air.
 
Sad to say, these historic sheds, so much a part of my childhood, are now virtually beyond saving.
 
The Jersey City terminal has been closed for nearly 50 years, and the sheds have largely remained untouched since closure in 1967.
 
What a waste....
 
"L.F.L."


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