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PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
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   Author  Topic: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion  (Read 967 times)
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #20 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 9:23pm »
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No info given for this photo taken at Atlanta, Georgia, in 1964.
 
Note the sleeper "CHENANGO", still lettered for the DL&W, four years after the E-L merger.
 
A loooong way from Hoboken!
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/dlw-chen-lba.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2016, 9:27pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #21 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 9:25pm »
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Same consist from a different angle......
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/dlw-chen-lbb.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2016, 9:25pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #22 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 10:00pm »
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Can anybody tell what the car ahead of Chenago is? Swear it looks like a MoPac car with a Buzzard & Buzz-saw herald.

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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #23 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 10:09pm »
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on Mar 7th, 2016, 10:00pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Can anybody tell what the car ahead of Chenago is? Swear it looks like a MoPac car with a Buzzard & Buzz-saw herald.

 
Clyde:
 
I was also thinking of that car being a MoPaC unit!
 
There are also a few interesting 1960's photos in "EL COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT AND PASSENGER EQUIPMENT" (by Larry DeYoung) showing E-L baggage/mail cars assigned to both N&W and SOUTHERN trains.
 
One of these photos shows N&W Train #4 at Roanoke, Virginia; the other shows an E-L baggage/mail in the consist of SOUTHERN's Train #18 at Lynchburg, Virginia.......
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 12:41am by CLASSB » Logged
jmlaboda
Historian
Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #24 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 11:10pm »
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Quote:
Can anybody tell what the car ahead of Chenago is? Swear it looks like a MoPac car with a Buzzard & Buzz-saw herald.

 
Texas & Pacific 677 Eagle Light, a PS 14 Roomette - 4 Double Bedroom sleeper... prior to being assimilated into MoPac.


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jerry
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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #25 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 11:38pm »
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Another 1960's "It's a loooong way from Hoboken" photo:
 
Here we see E-L (ex-DL&W) 10-6 sleeper "TIOUGHNIOGA" coupled to a UP car at Fort Hood, Texas (1967)
 
This was a troop train movement, BTW.
 
By the time of this photo, the only remaining E-L through train that still offered sleeper service was the "LAKE CITIES", which made its final run between Hoboken and Chicago in 1970.
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/tioug.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2016, 11:42pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #26 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 11:45pm »
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Closeup of the UP and E-L cars seen in previous photo at Fort Hood.....
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/el-tioug-gea.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2016, 11:46pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #27 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 10:12am »
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In "NEW HAVEN PASSENGER TRAINS" (Peter E. Lynch) there is an interesting section on the "camp trains" operated by the NH in the 50's and 60's.
 
One photo (circa 1960) shows a lengthy line of off-line Pullmans (mostly heavyweights) at the Cedar Hill yard, just east of the New Haven station.
 
Several "off-line" roads are represented here, including UP, SP, and IC.
 
According to the text, these Pullmans were pulled out of storage at various locations, and were awaiting redeployment north to bring the kids back home when the photo was snapped.
 
These trains left either Grand Central or Penn Station, and stopped at Stamford and Bridgeport (as well as other local stops) such as Rye or Westport.
 
The trains operated from the city to remote camps in Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine (via the B&M)
 
These special sleeper "camp trains" operated until the PC era.
 
Again, yet another fascinating "side aspect" of sleeper operations....
 
"L.F.L."
 


« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 10:17am by CLASSB » Logged
TAB
Historian
Posts: 1908
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #28 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 11:30am »
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My understanding has been that the Pullman Company had “routes” for their equipment much as a railroad has routes for their rails. I also think that there were, at one time, maps for these Pullman Company Routes. It would be interesting to overlay a US map of Pullman Routes over a US map of rail routes. The various meanderings of Pullman equipment could then be better visualized.....Tom

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ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #29 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 1:23pm »
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on Mar 8th, 2016, 10:12am, L. F. Lincoln wrote:       (Click here for original message)
In "NEW HAVEN PASSENGER TRAINS" (Peter E. Lynch) there is an interesting section on the "camp trains" operated by the NH in the 50's and 60's.
 
One photo (circa 1960) shows a lengthy line of off-line Pullmans (mostly heavyweights) at the Cedar Hill yard, just east of the New Haven station.
 
Several "off-line" roads are represented here, including UP, SP, and IC.
 
According to the text, these Pullmans were pulled out of storage at various locations, and were awaiting redeployment north to bring the kids back home when the photo was snapped.
 
These trains left either Grand Central or Penn Station, and stopped at Stamford and Bridgeport (as well as other local stops) such as Rye or Westport.
 
The trains operated from the city to remote camps in Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine (via the B&M)
 
These special sleeper "camp trains" operated until the PC era.
 
Again, yet another fascinating "side aspect" of sleeper operations....
 
"L.F.L."
 

 
 
 
Experienced a (sort of) "camp train" in 1960. That year was the 50th Anniversary of boy Scouting in the US, and Jamboree (described as "Jubilee Jamboree") was at Colorado Springs. I was one of the many thousands of Scouts who attended. Transport was via a Scout Special of heavy-weight open section Pullmans. Rode from Dallas to Colorado Springs on the (at that time) Denver & Rio Grande Western/C&S route of the Burlington Route. Dallas-Fort Worth-Wichita Falls-Trinidad-Colorado Springs and points between Fun trip. Baggage cars (Heavy-weights) converted to mess-cars to issue box meals.


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #30 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 1:25pm »
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on Mar 8th, 2016, 11:30am, TAB wrote:       (Click here for original message)
My understanding has been that the Pullman Company had “routes” for their equipment much as a railroad has routes for their rails. I also think that there were, at one time, maps for these Pullman Company Routes. It would be interesting to overlay a US map of Pullman Routes over a US map of rail routes. The various meanderings of Pullman equipment could then be better visualized.....Tom

 
 
Hey, Tom:
 
Thanks for jumping on board!
 
I am in complete concurrence with you; I would love to see a Pullman route map such as you mentioned in your post.
 
In the book that both you and I have, "THE CARS OF PULLMAN", pages 148-149 feature: "THE PULLMAN FLEET: HOW PULLMAN ASSIGNED CARS"; to say that day-to-day Pullman operations were extremely complex and minutely detailed is indeed a gross understatement.
 
The B&O, for instance, kept a ready supply of extra heavyweight sleepers on hand (under lease)  to handle military moves and tour groups.
 
Tracking Pullmans on a daily basis required the car desk clerks at Pullman's 86 districts and agencies to report the condition of arriving cars, st the company could assure that a car would be able to make its return trip in working order.
 
This was accomplished via telephone, Teletype, and telegraph.
 
Due to the expense of utilizing Western Union, Pullman developed an elaborate code system with hundreds of coded messages to reduce the number of words sent in each communication.
 
The layover of Pullmans at more remote locations was also interesting; at such locations, were no Pullman organization was available,  the set-out car would simply lay over by itself, and  the car's Porter slept on the car, and received a stipend for cleaning it when no other Pullman staff was available.
 
Indeed, the Pullman empire was indeed fine-tuned to operate as smoothly as a fine Swiss watch, back in the day.......
 
"L.F.L."
 


« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 1:32pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #31 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 1:43pm »
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on Mar 8th, 2016, 1:23pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 
 
Experienced a (sort of) "camp train" in 1960. That year was the 50th Anniversary of boy Scouting in the US, and Jamboree (described as "Jubilee Jamboree") was at Colorado Springs. I was one of the many thousands of Scouts who attended. Transport was via a Scout Special of heavy-weight open section Pullmans. Rode from Dallas to Colorado Springs on the (at that time) Denver & Rio Grande Western/C&S route of the Burlington Route. Dallas-Fort Worth-Wichita Falls-Trinidad-Colorado Springs and points between Fun trip. Baggage cars (Heavy-weights) converted to mess-cars to issue box meals.

 
 
Clyde:
 
Somewhere, I have an old issue of "CLASSIC TRAINS" that featured an OUTSTANDING article on the old "Scout Specials" to Valley Forge; many roads were involved (both in motive power and rolling stock)
 
For Yours Truly, seeing CNJ power switching MP stock was indeed a sight to see!
 
"L.F.L."


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #32 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 1:58pm »
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Gentlemen:
 
Some items of interest here......
 
"L.F.L."
 
http://www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38269
 
(courtesy: Railway Preservation News)


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #33 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 2:07pm »
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Also of interest:
 
On page 20 of "NYC COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT & PASSENGER EQUIPMENT" (Sweetland/Yanosey) there is a 1962 photo of sleeper  "RIP VAN WINKLE BRIDGE" at Dallas.
 
The car is painted in IC colors, coupled between two UP cars; nine "IMPERIAL" cars were later purchased by the ACL in 1962.
 
"RIP VAN WINKLE BRIDGE" became later ACL's "KISSAMEE RIVER".....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 2:08pm by CLASSB » Logged
jmlaboda
Historian
Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #34 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 8:34pm »
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Quote:
...nine "IMPERIAL" cars were later purchased by the ACL in 1962.

 
Only six NYC 4 Compartment - 4 Double Bedroom - 2 Drawing Room cars were sold to ACL, not nine...
 
All originally named in the Imperial-series but renamed in 1949 to the Bridge-series when they received numbers...
 
NYC Imperial Arch to 10029 Suspension Bridge, to ACL Manatee River in 1962
NYC Imperial Castle to 10021 Bear Mountain Bridge, ACL Savanna River
NYC Imperial Falls to 10022 Bay Bridge, ACL Ortega River
NYC Imperial Fountain to 10031 Rip Van Winkle Bridge, ACL Kissimee River
NYC Imperial Forest to 10024 George Washington Bridge, ACL Cape Fear River
NYC Imperial Mansion to 10025 High Bridge, ACLSuwanee River
 
All were retired by 1968 with five being sold for scrap and Suwanee River being sold to Amtrak in 1973 as a parts car.
 
Its worth noting that while ACL cars they were sold as 4 Drawing Room - 4 Compartment cars with the paired double bedrooms being reconfigured as single Drawing Rooms.


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jerry
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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #35 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 8:46pm »
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Jerry:
 
Thanks for posting the correct info on these cars; obviously, the book gave the wrong data.
 
On a sidenote, NYC head end cars (judging by the photos seen in the aforementioned book) could also be found far removed from home rails, much like interline Pullmans.
 
Several photos show various NYC head end cars at several Texas locations, including Dallas, Fort Worth, and Palestine.......
 
"L.F.L."


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jmlaboda
Historian
Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #36 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 9:00pm »
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Quote:
On page 20 of "NYC COLOR GUIDE TO FREIGHT & PASSENGER EQUIPMENT" (Sweetland/Yanosey) there is a 1962 photo of sleeper  "RIP VAN WINKLE BRIDGE" at Dallas.
 
The car is painted in IC colors, coupled between two UP cars;...

 
This brings up another interesting aspect of Pullman car operations in the streamline era, cars leased by Pullman that were used on roads other than the owner.  Numerous examples exist where cars were under Pullman lease where the cars saw use on other roads, sometimes but not that often repainted to match the cars of the road that they were assigned too.
 
One of the earliest examples was the New York Central's PS 5 Double Bedroom - buffet lounge observation car that was built for the Southern Railway's Crescent-pool.  Built as part of the same order as the Southern, Louisville & Nashville and West Point Route operations of the Crescent, NYC Royal Crest was in use on the Union Pacific in 1952 when the car was destroyed in a derailment, never to be replaced.  It was the only NYC car contributed to this pool.
 
The IC-painted cars mentioned above were another example.  A number of cars from CNW, DL&W, NYC, N&W, NP and UP cars were painted for and used on IC trains the City of Miami and Panama Ltd. with only small initials being the indicator of who the owner of the cars were.  The NP's cars being Budd dome - sleeper cars that were used during winter months painted in IC colors and returned and repainted to NP in the Spring.  The N&W cars are the same previously noted as being built for use on N&W-PRR operations, having been withdrawn and repainted to IC in 1961.
 
And it wasn't just limited to use in the States with the B&O-owned Budd dome-sleepers being stripped of their blue paint and simply given a number in the 600-series while on Canadian National and later on Atlantic Coast Line (sold to SCL circa 1968 ).
 
As for the cars that were assigned by Pullman to IC, a complete listing of the cars can be found on the lower part of the IC page at the N-scale Varnish's Passenger Car User's Guide linked too below...
 
http://n-scalevarnish.info/index/varnish/UsersGuide/IC.htm


« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 9:03pm by jmlaboda » Logged

jerry
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jmlaboda
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Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #37 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 9:15pm »
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Quote:
On a sidenote, NYC head end cars (judging by the photos seen in the aforementioned book) could also be found far removed from home rails, much like interline Pullmans.
 
Several photos show various NYC head end cars at several Texas locations, including Dallas, Fort Worth, and Palestine.......

 
While probably better discussed under its own thread cars that were leased to Railway Express Agency could be found on nearly any participating road hauling express (and, at times, even storage mail) on lines other than the owner.  Such operations varied largely because of connections but there were regular runs that included specific roads' cars that operated between two or more roads with very distant end-points.  NYC and the Lackawanna often contributed cars to ATSF trains serving the left coast and vise versa...


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jerry
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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #38 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 9:57pm »
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on Mar 8th, 2016, 9:15pm, jmlaboda wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
While probably better discussed under its own thread cars that were leased to Railway Express Agency could be found on nearly any participating road hauling express (and, at times, even storage mail) on lines other than the owner.  Such operations varied largely because of connections but there were regular runs that included specific roads' cars that operated between two or more roads with very distant end-points.  NYC and the Lackawanna often contributed cars to ATSF trains serving the left coast and vise versa...

 
Jerry:
 
Makes sense to me!  
 
Back in the 60's, I well recall SF box express cars on the "PHOEBE SNOW", between Hoboken and Chicago.
 
There is a photo in "READING COMPANY IN COLOR: VOLUME 1", by Jeremy F. Plant, that shows a late 50's/early 60's photo of RDG Train #194 out of Harrisburg.
 
The train featured seven head end cars from (what I can see) three railroads (ERIE, DL&W, and RDG, with a lone CNJ coach trailing......
 
"L.F.L."
 


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #39 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 10:07pm »
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From: "THE CARS OF PULLMAN"......
 
"........the PRR participated in a number of interline services connecting western and southwestern cities to the eastern seaboard, and rostered Pullman cars  painted for connecting roads...."
 
The preceding is part of the caption for the photo showing "STONEY RAPIDS", painted for the UP but lettered "PENNSYLVANIA".
 
The car was used in through service for the UP's "CITY OF LOS ANGELES".......
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 10:07pm by CLASSB » Logged
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