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PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
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   Author  Topic: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion  (Read 986 times)
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #120 on: Mar 17th, 2016, 10:52pm »
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Jerry:
 
I THOUGHT I could see what looked like the word "SLEEPER" on the side of the car, but was too blurry for me to be totally sure.
 
You can see the similarities between the two types though....thanks for the correct designation...
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2016, 12:15am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #121 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 12:14am »
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While on the subject of Slumbercoaches, these AMTRAK photos should be of interest.....
 
http://www.hebners.net/Amtrak/amtSLEEP.html
 
(courtesy: Amtrak Photo Archive)


« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2016, 12:16am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #122 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 12:23am »
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No discussion on Pullman operations would be complete without at least some mention of this fine and legendary train, one of the very finest ever to grace the rails of North America......
 
"L.F.L."
 
http://cruiselinehistory.com/cruising-the-past-santa-fes-all-pullman-super-chief-the-train-of-the-stars/
 
(courtesy: Cruising The Past)


« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2016, 12:30am by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #123 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 12:51pm »
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Interestingly, the first streamlined Super Chief used Budd cars (and Pullman didn't want to provide crews and operation of non-Pullman sleeping equipment owned by the railroad, but I think Santa Fe had enough clout to get them to for just one train...). It was one of the first all-room trains, though if memory serves, NYC had an all-room train in the 20th Century in heavy-weight days.
 
After new car orders opened up post-War and Pullman began turning out light-weight cars, Santa Fe used either all-Pullman or mostly Pullman sleeping cars on the Super. Including the wonderful Pleasure Dome cars with the Turquoise Room - identifiable at a glance as its dome used the all-flat glass instead of the much nicer looking curved glass found in Budd and ACF domes. As far as I know, Santa Fe made no major orders (if any) from ACF, in contrast to UP that bought a lot of light-weights from them.


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Henry
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Posts: 6119
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #124 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 1:23pm »
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I think the 20th Century and Pennsylvania Special (the Broadway's predecessor) were both all-room from at least 1902.


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jmlaboda
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Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #125 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 4:41pm »
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Quote:
As far as I know, Santa Fe made no major orders (if any) from ACF,

 
While most orders were split between Budd and Pullman Standard American Car & Foundry (ACF) still produced a total of 96 cars for the Santa Fe...
 
15 cars in the Regal-series 4 Compartment - 4 Double Bedroom - 2 Drawing Room sleepers
13 cars in the Palm-series 10 Roomette - 6 Double Bedroom sleepers
1 car named Vista Club 4 Drawing Room - 1 Bedroom - lounge RE Observation
50 - 52 60' mail  3 cars
3409 - 3426  baggage - express  18 cars
3453 - 3466  baggage - express  14 cars
3600 - 3606  baggage - mail  7 cars
3660 - 3684  baggage - express  25 cars
 
We will never know, because of all the cars that ACF was building for other roads, if opportunities to produce more cars could have been had but 96 cars is still a very respectable showing.  No slack action here!!!


« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2016, 4:41pm by jmlaboda » Logged

jerry
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ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #126 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 7:07pm »
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on Mar 18th, 2016, 4:41pm, jmlaboda wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
While most orders were split between Budd and Pullman Standard American Car & Foundry (ACF) still produced a total of 96 cars for the Santa Fe...
 
15 cars in the Regal-series 4 Compartment - 4 Double Bedroom - 2 Drawing Room sleepers
13 cars in the Palm-series 10 Roomette - 6 Double Bedroom sleepers
1 car named Vista Club 4 Drawing Room - 1 Bedroom - lounge RE Observation
50 - 52 60' mail  3 cars
3409 - 3426  baggage - express  18 cars
3453 - 3466  baggage - express  14 cars
3600 - 3606  baggage - mail  7 cars
3660 - 3684  baggage - express  25 cars
 
We will never know, because of all the cars that ACF was building for other roads, if opportunities to produce more cars could have been had but 96 cars is still a very respectable showing.  No slack action here!!!

 
 
Thanks, Jim. Be flipped, or at least flipped off.
 
Looks like the 3660-series were from 1955 and went to Amtrak as 1150-series. The earlier Baggage, baggage-mail and such don't seem to have been picked up by Amtrak.
 
Three of the 1950 order for Regal-series 4-4-2s appear to have gone to Amtrak (2350-2352, formerly1813 Regal Dome; 1821 Regal Inn; 1822 Regal Isle).
 
Ex-Santa Fe 10-6s from ACF ordered 1951 went to Amtrak as 2750-2762 (Santa Fe 1601-1613), Palm Arch, Dome, Haven, Leaf, Loch, Lore, Path, Star, Stream, Summit, Top, Tower and View.
 
That Sleeper/Lounge/Observation doesn't seem to have made it to Amtrak, but the quick pass I just made through the Wayner AMTRAK CAR SPOTTR (Rev 2nd Ed) could have missed some.


« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2016, 9:46pm by ClydeDET » Logged
jmlaboda
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Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #127 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 7:30pm »
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Quote:
That Sleeper/Lounge/Observation doesn't seem to have made it to Amtrak, but the quick pass I just made through the Wayner AMTRAK CAR SPOTTR (Rev 2nd Ed) could have missed some.

 
Actually Vista Club was sold by Santa Fe to Newark Panhandle RR (a private owner) who renamed the car The Kokosing.  It was sold to Amtrak in 1974 but retired in 1975 without ever being placed into service.
 
As for the baggage cars 3409 - 3426 and 3453 - 3466 all (except 3454, 3455 and 3460 which became AMTK 1171 - 1173) were retired in 1968 with most going to Mexico while a few were acquired by Ice Capades (7 cars) and Royal American Shows (2 cars) and turned into tunnel cars for equipment and props (gutted typically with the ends removed and replaced by canvass).
 
Also keep in mind that Santa Fe (and now Burlington Northern Santa Fe) retained a number of Regal-series cars for company service.  All still remain in use.


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2016, 9:35pm by jmlaboda » Logged

jerry
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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #128 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 8:14pm »
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From "SANTA FE RAILWAY" (Glischinski):
 
".......The SF never had a direct through train between the Midwest and the Bay Area, although through cars had been offered; the Chicago-Oakland 'SAN FRANCISCAN CHIEF' filled that bill. ...."
 
".....that train had been assembled b y a combination of existing cars (sleepers and diners bumped from the 'CHIEF'  and other streamliners by the delivery of newer Pullmans and diners, and other new equipment...."
 
"......this train also handled through sleepers between Chicago, Phoenix, Lubbock, and LA, with another from New Orleans (the latter car joined the train at Clovis). Additional sleeper-lounges were added in 1955......."
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2016, 8:15pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #129 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 9:55pm »
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on Mar 18th, 2016, 7:30pm, jmlaboda wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Actually <I>Vista Club</I> was sold by Santa Fe to Newark Panhandle RR (a private owner) who renamed the car <I>The Kokosing</I>.  It was sold to Amtrak in 1974 but retired in 1975 without ever being placed into service.
 
As for the baggage cars 3409 - 3426 and 3453 - 3466 all (except 3454, 3455 and 3460 which became AMTK 1171 - 1173) were retired in 1968 with most going to Mexico while a few were acquired by Ice Capades (7 cars) and Royal American Shows (2 cars) and turned into tunnel cars for equipment and props (gutted typically with the ends removed and replaced by canvass).
 
Also keep in mind that Santa Fe (and now Burlington Northern Santa Fe) retained a number of <I>Regal</I>-series cars for company service.  All still remain in use.

 Thanks for the information, Jim.  My notes in the Wayner book show I saw #s 1171-1173  in AMTRAK service.
 
I think  the Regal-series 4-4-2 sleepers were probably the most luxurious cars the Santa Fe had in service on the eve of Amtrak, so no really surprise they kept some for company service, and have kept them still.


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jmlaboda
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Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #130 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 10:23pm »
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Quote:
Thanks for the information, Jim.

 
Whose this Jim everyone keeps talking about
 
 


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jerry
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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #131 on: Mar 18th, 2016, 10:25pm »
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Regarding coast-to-coast sleeping cars (which I mentioned in an earlier post); the following is also from "SANTA FE RAILWAY" (Glischinski):
 
".......a new innovation was added in 1946 when the 'CHIEF' began carrying coast-to-coast sleeping cars. cars from the NYC's '20th CENTURY LIMITED and PRR's 'BROADWAY LIMITED' (from New York), and the B&O's 'CAPITOL LIMITED' (from Washington, DC) were transferred to chief at Chicago......"
 
This must have involved interesting switching moves, as none of the other three railroads served Dearborn St. station.......
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2016, 10:26pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #132 on: Mar 19th, 2016, 11:26pm »
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All:
 
I just dug out a PRR timetable effective December 13, 1940 for "THROUGH TRAIN SERVICE TO AND FROM THE SOUTH".
 
There are several "footnote" pages on sleeping, dining, and parlor cars for the PRR, the SOUTHERN, the ACL, and the SEABOARD, as well as connections to the N&W, and the C&O.
 
A separate area announces:
 
"THROUGH DAILY AIR-CONDITIONED SLEEPING CARS BETWEEN NEW YORK & NORFOLK (cars open in New York 10:30 PM)"
 
Sleepers are listed to many destinations, including:
 
HOT SPRINGS
 
CAPE CHARLES
 
LOUISVILLE
 
MONTREAL
 
BOSTON
 
SPRINGFIELD
 
ST. ALBANS
 
THOMASVILLE (VIA JACKSONVILLE)
 
NEW ORLEANS
 
BIRMINGHAM
 
PENSACOLA
 
In short, one can only imagine the intense, non-stop activities surrounding the many areas of Pullman operations, when this this TT was issued.....
 
"L.F.L."
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2016, 12:12am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #133 on: Mar 20th, 2016, 12:07am »
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Another TT I dug out this evening was an N&W, effective 1/25/66.
 
Sleepers were available on the following trains:
 
TRAINS #'s 3 & 4 "THE POCAHONTAS (sleepers between Roanoke and Cincinnati)
 
TRAINS #'s 21 & 22  (sleepers between Norfolk and New York)
 
TRAINS #'s 41 & 42 "THE PELICAN" sleepers between New York and Chattanooga/New York and Bristol)
 
TRAINS #'s 45 & 46 "THE TENNESSEAN" (sleepers betwen Knoxville and Memphis)
 
TRAINS #'s 2 & 3 "DETROIT LIMITED"/"ST. LOUIS LIMITED" (sleepers between St. Louis and Detroit)
 
TRAINS #'s 209-9-103 and 104-10-210 Domeliner "CITY OF ST. LOUIS" Standard Sleeping Cars between St. Louis-Los Angeles/St. Louis-San Francisco)
 
TRAINS #'s 5 & 6 "CITY OF CHICAGO"/"CITY OF CLEVELAND" (sleepers between Cleveland and Chicago)
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2016, 12:14am by CLASSB » Logged
George_Harris
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Posts: 3824
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #134 on: Mar 20th, 2016, 12:51am »
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on Mar 20th, 2016, 12:07am, L. F. Lincoln wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Another TT I dug out this evening was an N&W, effective 1/25/66.
 
Sleepers were available on the following trains:
 
TRAINS #'s 3 & 4 "THE POCAHONTAS (sleepers between Roanoke and Cincinnati)
 
TRAINS #'s 21 & 22  (sleepers between Norfolk and New York)
 
TRAINS #'s 41 & 42 "THE PELICAN" sleepers between New York and Chattanooga/New York and Bristol)
 
TRAINS #'s 45 & 46 "THE TENNESSEAN" (sleepers betwen Knoxville and Memphis)
 
TRAINS #'s 2 & 3 "DETROIT LIMITED"/"ST. LOUIS LIMITED" (sleepers between St. Louis and Detroit)
 
TRAINS #'s 209-9-103 and 104-10-210 Domeliner "CITY OF ST. LOUIS" Standard Sleeping Cars between St. Louis-Los Angeles/St. Louis-San Francisco)
 
TRAINS #'s 5 & 6 "CITY OF CHICAGO"/"CITY OF CLEVELAND" (sleepers between Cleveland and Chicago)

Trains 41-42, Pelican; 45-46, Tennessean; and 17-18, Birmingham Special; were all N&W between Lynchburg and Bristol with that part of their operation sandwiched between their operation by Southern north of Lynchburg and south of Bristol.  That is, they were the N&W part of Southern Railway through trains, not just trains carrying through Pullmans.  By 1966 they were getting toward the end of their lives, but I believe they were all still going.  Back up a few years, and not very many and all were carrying through sleepers as well.  
 
The Pelican for many years carried through sleepers New York to New Orleans on a two night and one day schedule.  In much of its life it carried multiple sleepers with setouts and Bristol and either Knoxville or Chattanooga.  The B'ham Special left Washington mid afternoon and arrived B'ham late morning the next day.  The Tennessean left Washington in the morning, arriving Memphis the next morning.  For much of its life it carried sleepers the whole way, although in its last years the sleeper was cut back to Bristol-Memphis, then Knoxville-Memphis, then dropped completely.
 
I think at one point there was a Washington or New York to Roanoke sleeper, probably on the Pelican, but my real knowledge of this is nil.
 
I recall in my college days being on the Tennessean Memphis to Knoxville (in coach) hearing the conductor explaining to a woman riding on a pass that if she stayed on the train she would have to pay the fare on the N&W portion between Bristol and Lynchburg, but she could avoid that by changing to the Carolina Special at Knoxville.  Yes, it would take longer, but it would be Southern Railway all the way, and thus free for her.


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2016, 12:53am by George_Harris » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #135 on: Mar 20th, 2016, 1:27am »
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George:
 
As always, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to post the information and personal memories you have, regarding the "Old Order" of passenger rail operations.
 
As the 1960's was the last decade before AMTRAK, and so much diversity still existed (in regards to equipment, routeings, and infrastructure) the decade enabled so many of us rail-infatuated "baby boomers" (yours truly included!) to experience "classic" railroading up close and personal.
 
My personal experiences of witnessing Pullman operations firsthand was at the E-L terminal in Hoboken, when I was in my early years of grade school.
 
For the first half of the decade, there were still a number of through trains carrying sleepers; after the last run of the "PHOEBE SNOW" in late 1966, only one train remained in operation that still carried sleepers (the "LAKE CITIES")
 
After January of 1970, sleeper operation (as well as all remaining through train service) ended forever on the E-L.
 
As you might expect, I am most grateful for both my good memory and the many, many visits that Mom and I made to the Hoboken terminal, back in the day, to see true classic passenger operations in action........it now seems as though it were all 100 years ago......
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2016, 9:54am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #136 on: Mar 20th, 2016, 9:38am »
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From a PC TT (effective 12/10/70) "THRU TRAINS BETWEEN NEW YORK, PHILADELPHIA, AND THE SOUTH":
 
(the following is a full page display)
 
"PASSENGER EQUIPMENT- VIA SOUTHERN Ry. AND NORFOLK & WESTERN Ry."
 
SOUTHWARD:
 
#'s 1`55-5 "THE PIEDMONT"  
 
SLEEPING CAR: NEW YORK-GREENVILLE
 
#'s 173-1. "THE SOUTHERN CRESCENT"
 
SLEEPING CAR: NEW YORK-BIRMINGHAM
 
NEW YORK-NEW ORLEANS
 
WASHINGTON-ATLANTA
------------------------------------------------------------------
 
NORTHWARD:
 
#'s 2-126. "THE SOUTHERN CRESCENT"
 
SLEEPING CARS:
 
BIRMINGHAM-NEW YORK
 
NEW ORLEANS-NEW YORK
 
ATLANTA-WASHINGTON
 
#'s 6-140. "THE PIEDMONT"
 
SLEEPING CARS:
 
GREENVILLE-NEW YORK
 
 
This old TT is wonderfully and nostalgically dated today, with so many footnotes for parlor cars, grill cars, tavern-lounges, and reclining seat coaches (not to mention dome-parlors on the "CRESCENT"!)
 
Another truly dated blurb tells passengers that tickets could also be purchased at PATH's old downtown terminal, "HUDSON TERMINAL", (opened in 1909) which itself would sadly fall to the wrecking ball in the following year (1971)
 
PRR ticket offices were part of the old "HUDSON TERMINAL" concourse for decades (it should also be noted that the PRR and PATH, until 1967, operated the "joint service" rapid transit line to Newark, via Journal Square)
 
After 1967, the "joint service" became a PATH-only operation, dispensing with passengers purchasing railroad-style tickets before boarding.
 
This interesting and colorful rapid transit operation I remember quite well as a young lad......
 
"L.F.L."
 
 
 


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2016, 11:59am by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #137 on: Mar 20th, 2016, 2:24pm »
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on Mar 18th, 2016, 10:23pm, jmlaboda wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Whose this Jim everyone keeps talking about
 
 

You sir - "jmlaboda" looked like a "Jim". "I" that wasn't there appeared spuriously. Apologies. Sort of like an insurance agency sign in LaGrange, Texas where an "I" sort of disappears on a hasty glance so "FUCIK" tends to be seen as another word...


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ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« Reply #138 on: Mar 20th, 2016, 2:38pm »
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on Mar 20th, 2016, 1:27am, L. F. Lincoln wrote:       (Click here for original message)
George:
 
As always, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to post the information and personal memories you have, regarding the "Old Order" of passenger rail operations.
 
As the 1960's was the last decade before AMTRAK, and so much diversity still existed (in regards to equipment, routeings, and infrastructure) the decade enabled so many of us rail-infatuated "baby boomers" (yours truly included!) to experience "classic" railroading up close and personal.
 
My personal experiences of witnessing Pullman operations firsthand was at the E-L terminal in Hoboken, when I was in my early years of grade school.
 
For the first half of the decade, there were still a number of through trains carrying sleepers; after the last run of the "PHOEBE SNOW" in late 1966, only one train remained in operation that still carried sleepers (the "LAKE CITIES")
 
After January of 1970, sleeper operation (as well as all remaining through train service) ended forever on the E-L.
 
As you might expect, I am most grateful for both my good memory and the many, many visits that Mom and I made to the Hoboken terminal, back in the day, to see true classic passenger operations in action........it now seems as though it were all 100 years ago......
 
"L.F.L."

 
Minor example of that through sleeper thing was on the Santa Fe. In the mid-50s, the Santa Fe built a new branch line from Gainesville to Dallas. At that point, a Dallas section of the Texas Chief was inaugurated. A 10-6 sleeper and a chair car split on the south-bound and went directly into Dallas Union Station, with a suburban stop called White Rook Station near Jupiter Road in north Dallas area to allow passengers from that part of town to be served without their having to go downtown (sort of like the old Katy Highland Park Station). Northbound, of course, was a 10-6 and chair car from Union Station to White Rock and Gainesville where the cars were added to the Houston-Fort Worth section and on to OKC and Chicago. Rode that one, in a roomette, in April, 1966 on the way to Aberdeen. Had to change trains in Chicago for that to happen, but - it was a train...


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