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PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
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   Author  Topic: PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion  (Read 973 times)
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
PRR Pullman "interline" operations/Pullman discussion
 
« on: Mar 6th, 2016, 12:58am »
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Gentlemen:
 
Just purchased an OUTSTANDING book, "THE CARS OF PULLMAN" (Welsh, Howes, and Holland), and was quite surprised (to say the least!) to see photos of smooth-side Pullmans in classic PRR Tuscan livery, but lettered for the N&W and the L&N.
 
The PRR purchased three sleepers painted in Tuscan red for through service with the PRR; one of the cars, the "GREEN RIVER", once held down a regular assignment between New York and Nashville, operating on the "CINCINNATI LIMITED".
 
N&W's "BUCHANAN COUNTY" (P-S, 1949), also painted in PRR Tuscan, often held down interline assignments from New York to Virginia, via an interchange with the PRR.
 
Other PRR "interline" sleeper services included through operation on the ACL, SAL, FRISCO, KATY, SOUTHERN, MP, UP, and SP.
 
This is the first I have read (at least, in detail) about this interesting "interline" sleeper service on the PRR.
 
I am also reminded of certain early E-L through trains, which sometimes carried a UP "AMERICAN"-Series sleeper.
 
Am most interested in learning (and discussing) more on this colorful sleeper operation of another era......
 
"L.F.L."
 


« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2016, 12:32am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #1 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 1:09am »
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One particularly interesting (and colorful!) undated photo in the aforementioned book shows the "GREEN RIVER" (painted PRR Tuscan but lettered for the L&N) in the consist of the "SOUTH WIND", coupled to a NP dome.
 
Yes, indeed, those were the days.....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2016, 1:10am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #2 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 1:16am »
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Also of interest......
 
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=96&t=58378
 
(courtesy: RAILROAD.NET)


« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2016, 1:17am by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #3 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 2:52pm »
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There are a couple (at least) of chapters on interline stuff and resulting livery choices in Dubin's SOME CLASSIC TRAINS and MORE CLASSIC TRAINS (wonderful books, by the way; if you don't have them, should, though I think OP now and probably expensive), including pictures. Also NIGHT TRAINS offers a number of examples (without pictures and not always - usually not - data on livery) of trains that carried interline cars. And if I recall correctly, Beebe and Clegg's TRAINS WE RODE and MORE TRAINS WE RODE show some examples of that as well.

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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #4 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 3:50pm »
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Clyde:
 
I do have the two books by Messrs Beebe and Clegg; I have to try to dig them out and do some reading up.
 
"Interline" Pullman sleeper service was yet another time-honored tradition that vanished when AMTRAK took the reins of our remaining passenger trains; I would not be surprised if even many of today's AMTRAK employees (especially the younger ones) are unfamiliar with long-gone area of long-haul passenger operations.
 
Back in the 60's, I remember seeing through cars of other railroads on PRR trains passing through Penn Station, Newark, as well as darting in and out of the Bergen Portals in North Bergen, NJ........though it indeed made for fascinating train-watching, I had no idea that, at the time, I was watching the twilight of a dying era in passenger rail travel......
 
"L.F.L."


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jmlaboda
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Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #5 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 5:25pm »
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Quote:
Interline" Pullman sleeper service was yet another time-honored tradition that vanished when AMTRAK took the reins of our remaining passenger trains; I would not be surprised if even many of today's AMTRAK employees (especially the younger ones) are unfamiliar with long-gone area of long-haul passenger operations.

 
Ah, guess again.  Interline service continued into the Amtrak era with 10 Roomette - 6 Double Bedroom sleepers being exchanged between Amtrak's Sunset Limited and Southern Railway's Southern Crescent, an operation that lasted several years.
 
Passengers continuing from one train to another had a layover of a few hours to overnite depending on their direction of travel in New Orleans, making for a nice break from their travels.  This was a left over of earlier interline car exchange that had been part of both Southern and Southern Pacific's histories.


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jerry
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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #6 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 5:35pm »
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on Mar 6th, 2016, 5:25pm, jmlaboda wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Ah, guess again.  Interline service continued into the Amtrak era with 10 Roomette - 6 Double Bedroom sleepers being exchanged between Amtrak's Sunset Limited and Southern Railway's Southern Crescent, an operation that lasted several years.
 
Passengers continuing from one train to another had a layover of a few hours to overnight depending on their direction of travel in New Orleans, making for a nice break from their travels.  This was a left over of earlier interline car exchange that had been part of both Southern and Southern Pacific's histories.

 
Jerry:
 
Thanks!
 
Was not aware of any of this....thank you for calling this bit of trivia to my attention!
 
Up until your post, I had thought that all "interline" sleeper service ended with the beginning of AMTRAK.......glad you shared your info here.....
 
"L.F.L."


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #7 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 5:42pm »
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Also of interest.....
 
http://www.nymtmuseum.org/headends/10winter/Winter10.html
 
(courtesy: New York Museum of Transportation)


« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2016, 5:44pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #8 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 5:55pm »
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More interesting related reading.....
 
http://www.american-rails.com/havana-special.html
 
(courtesy: American Rails)
 
http://ctr.trains.com/railroad-reference/passenger-service/2014/04/midwest-passenger-train-consists
 
(Courtesy: Classic Trains)


« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2016, 6:01pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #9 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 8:34pm »
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on Mar 6th, 2016, 5:25pm, jmlaboda wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Ah, guess again.  Interline service continued into the Amtrak era with 10 Roomette - 6 Double Bedroom sleepers being exchanged between Amtrak's Sunset Limited and Southern Railway's Southern Crescent, an operation that lasted several years.
 
Passengers continuing from one train to another had a layover of a few hours to overnite depending on their direction of travel in New Orleans, making for a nice break from their travels.  This was a left over of earlier interline car exchange that had been part of both Southern and Southern Pacific's histories.

 
Indeed so - and you could occupy your Sleeper during the lay-over at NOLA.  I wanted to take that trip, but never could quite coordinate it with other obligations.


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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #10 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 9:56pm »
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On page #141 of the aforementioned "THE CARS OF PULLMAN", there is a photo of the "EAGLE OAK"; this car, one of 11 built for the PRR by ACF was painted in MISSOURI PACIFIC colors for interline service with that railroad's "TEXAS EAGLE".
 
On a related note, there is a 1952 photo on page #25 of "ERIE RAILROAD TRACKSIDE" (De Young/Collins) that shows what might be a KATY sleeper in the ERIE's through-line coach yard at Jersey City (this is mentioned in the photo caption)
 
Also in the same book, on page #129, is a photo of the "CASCADE SOUND"; this was a B&O-assigned car that was one of three 10-5 sleepers assigned to the B&O in 1943.
 
This photo (taken in the postwar period) shows the car painted in MP colors, for service on that road......
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2016, 10:04pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #11 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 10:16pm »
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Another interesting "interline" photo (1955) from the aforementioned book, found on page #129, shows the GM&O's northbound "ABRAHAM LINCOLN" carrying three interline Pullmans.
 
One is a Fort Worth-Chicago car and a Houston-Chicago sleeper in MP blue, as well as a Mobile-Chicago sleeper in GM&O red........
 
"L.F.L."


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jmlaboda
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Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #12 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 10:22pm »
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Quote:
One is a Fort Worth-Chicago car and a Houston-Chicago sleeper in MP blue, as well as a Mobile-Chicago sleeper in GM&O red........

 
But that's only two interline sleepers... the Mobile-Chicago sleeper would be GM&O all the way through, unless it was after when the GM&O discontinued its own service on the lower part of its system.


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jerry
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jmlaboda
Historian
Posts: 389
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #13 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 10:37pm »
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Earlier in this discussion it was mentioned that L&N and N&W each had sleepers that were painted in PRR tuscan red paint for interline service... the RF&P also had three sleepers in use in the same sort of service.
 
L&N sleepers Green River and Kentucky River, N&W Buckanan County, McDowell County and Sussex County and RF&P King & Queen, King George and King William all had smooth sides and PRR-styled lettering...
 
L&N Green River
RF&P King & Queen
RF&P King & Queen
RF&P King George


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jerry
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L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #14 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 11:15pm »
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Jerry:
 
Appreciate your posting the photos....thanks!
 
BTW:
 
I had mentioned earlier in this discussion that, early in the E-L merger, certain through trains (such as the "PACIFIC EXPRESS") carried a UP sleeper.....I have long pondered as to why a UP sleeper would be carried on an E-L train.
 
Also mentioned earlier here, a KATY sleeper from Chicago via the ERIE (to Jersey City).....your  take on this one?
 
Thanks in advance for any info you might be able to contribute....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2016, 11:16pm by CLASSB » Logged
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1726
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #15 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 2:49pm »
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L.F.L., I have before me my October 1956 Official Guide, (now literally falling to pieces from my thumbing through it), and these are PRR's interline offerings:
 
 
Coast-To-Coast Service:
 
The Broadway Limited carried a daily New York-Los Angeles Sleeper for interchange to the Super Chief at Chicago.  The layover in Chicago was eleven hours westbound (plenty of time for sightseeing), and three and a half hours eastbound.  This involved a change of depots, with the Sleeper shunted from Union Station (PRR) to Dearborn Station (Santa Fe).  Passengers and their carry-ons were entrusted to the good graces of the Parmalee Transfer Company.  The Sleeper was one of the elegant 4 Compartment, 2 Drawing Room, 4 Double Bedroom cars, undoubtedly Santa Fe stainless, and named in the Regal series.
 
The Liberty Limited (departing just ten minutes behind the Broadway), carried a daily 10-6 Sleeper for interchange to UP's City of Los Angeles.  Both railroads served Union Station, so the transfer was much simpler.  The layover was ten hours westbound, four hours eastbound.  This car was in all likelihood painted UP Armour Yellow.
 
The Liberty Limited also carried a daily 10-6 Sleeper for San Francisco, which alternated routes on alternate days.  On odd-numbered days, for example, it would be handed off to UP's City of San Francisco, and on even-numbered days it would be handed off to the California Zephyr.  (The odd-even assignments would switch, according to which Month it was).  Again, all trains served Union Station.  The Zephyr connection was the tightest of all-- just under seven hours westbound, and two hours eastbound.
 
 
New York - Texas Service:
 
The Penn-Texas carried several Sleepers that operated through St. Louis to various destinations in Texas:  
 
10 Roomettes, 6 Double Bedrooms, to San Antonio via the Texas Special  (Frisco/MKT)
14 Roomettes, 4 Double Bedrooms, to San Antonio via the Texas Special  (Frisco/MKT)
10 Roomettes, 6 Double Bedrooms, to San Antonio via The Texas Eagle (Missouri Pacific)
10 Roomettes, 6 Double Bedrooms, to San Antonio via The Texas Eagle (Missouri Pacific)*
10 Roomettes, 6 Double Bedrooms, to Houston via The Texas Eagle  (Missouri Pacific)
14 Roomettes, 4 Double Bedrooms, to El Paso via The Texas Eagle  (Missouri Pacific)
 
*  This Car from Washington, DC (via The Admiral between DC and Harrisburg)
 
 
Chicago - Florida Service:
 
The Southland (Daily, via Cincinnati):
 
10 Roomettes, 6 DB to Miami
10 Roomettes, 6 DB to Miami
10 Roomettes, 6 DB to Jacksonville
 
The South Wind  (Every Third Day, via Louisville):
 
8 Sect., 1 DR, 3 DB to St. Petersburg
8 Sect., 1 DR, 3 DB to Tampa-Sarasota
 
South of Cincinnati or Louisville, these trains were hosted by L&N, ACL, and FEC
 
The Every-Third-Day departure of the South Wind was part of a rotating "pool service"-- on the other two days, service would be provided by either the New York Central or the Chicago & Eastern Illinois.
 
 
Other Routes:
 
A Caveat:  Not all of these are Pennsylvania Railroad trains; but they ran over Pennsy rails to reach their destinations.  I am unsure how many of these through Sleepers (if any) wore Tuscan Red, but since the Pennsy was a "partner" in the service (even if only as host for a portion of the route), they are listed here because they might, on rare occasions, have been PRR cars . . .
 
 
Pittsburgh - Boston:  A 14 Roomette, 4 DB Sleeper, and an 8 Sect., 1 DR, 3 DB Sleeper were handled on the Pennsy's Duquesne between Pittsburgh and New York; then, on the New Haven's Quaker to Boston.  Southbound, they were carried through on the William Penn.
 
Washington - Montreal:  An 8 Sect., 5 DB Sleeper was carried northbound on the Montrealer, and southb ound on the Washingtonian.  Partner railroads were the Pennsy, New Haven, Boston & Maine, Central Vermont, and Canadian National.
 
 
New York, Washington, and The South:  
 
PRR hosted trains on its speedway between New York and Washington, DC (today, it's Amtrak's Northeast Corridor).  I am especially uncertain whether any of these listed Sleepers wore Pennsy colors; but the trains were listed, and their services were advertised, in the Pennsy timetables.  These are only the New York City cars-- other Sleepers added or dropped at Washington, DC are not listed.
 
In Partnership with the Atlantic Coast Line:
 
The East Coast Champion:
 
     To Miami: 10 Roomettes, 6 DB  (three cars)
 
The West Coast Champion:
 
     To St. Petersburg:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Tampa:   10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Sarasota:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Jacksonville:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
 
The Palmetto:
 
     To Savannah: 14 Roomettes, 2 DR
     To Augusta: 10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
The Havana Special:
 
     To Miami:  8 Sect., 5 DB
     To Tampa:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Florence:  21 Roomettes
     To Wilmington, NC:  14 Roomettes, 2 DR
 
 
In partnership with Seaboard Air Line:
 
The Silver Meteor
 
     To Miami:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Miami:  2 Comp., 2 DR, 5 DB
     To St. Petersburg:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Sarasota/Venice:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
The Silver Star
 
     To Miami:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Miami:  11 DB
 
The Palmland
 
     To Miami:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Hamlet:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
The Silver Comet
 
     To Birmingham:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
In Partnership with the Southern Railway and Norfolk & Western:
 
The Asheville Special  (Northbound Only?)
 
     From Asheville:  14 Roomettes, 4 DB
     From Augusta:  14 Roomettes, 4 DB
     From Raleigh/Durham:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     From Winston/Salem:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
The Augusta Special  (Southbound Only?)
 
     To Augusta:  14 Roomettes, 4 DB
 
The Birmingham Special
 
     To Birmingham:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
The Crescent
 
     To Atlanta:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB  (two cars)
     To Montgomery:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To New Orleans:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB  (two cars)
 
The Peach Queen  (Northbound Only?)
 
     From Charlotte:  10 Sect., 2 Comp., 1 DR
     From Greensboro:  10 Roomettes, 5 DB
     From Greenville:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     From Raleigh/Durham:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     From Winston/Salem:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
The Pelican
 
     To Bristol:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Knoxville:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To New Orleans:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
The Piedmont Limited
 
     To Mobile:  8 Sect., 5 DB
     To New Orleans:  6 Sect., 6 DB
 
The Southerner
 
     To Asheville:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Asheville:  14 Roomettes, 4 DB
     To Atlanta:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB  (two cars)
     To Birmingham:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
The Tennessean
 
     To Memphis:  14 Roomettes, 4 DB
 
 
In partnership with the Chesapeake & Ohio:
 
The George Washington
 
     To Louisville:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To Ashland:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
The F.F.V.
 
     To Ashland:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB  (three cars)
     To Hot Springs:  11 DB
     To White Sulfur Springs:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
     To White Sulfur Springs:  11 DB
 
The Sportsman  (Eastbound Only)
 
     From Cincinnati:  10 Roomettes, 6 DB
 
 
Again, these were most certainly not all PRR Sleepers!  But the service was advertised and the times were shown in PRR timetables.  Also, with so many routes, it is possible that I have overlooked a few.  If someone better versed in PRR lore spots an error, I thank you in advance for your corrections.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 11:20pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #16 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 3:33pm »
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Norm:
 
Greatly appreciate your taking the time to post so much of great interest from your time-worn OFFICIAL GUIDE........thank you!
 
Pullman operation, in itself, is a truly fascinating aspect of bygone railroading, made even more fascinating and diverse when you start discussing the interline routings once commonplace.
 
There are several excellent color photos of interline sleeper operations in "ATLANTIC COAST LINE PASSENGER SERVICE: THE POSTWAR YEARS", by Larry Goolsby.
 
One truly classic photo, taken at Pierson, Florida in 1964 (Train #91, the southbound "WEST COAST CHAMPION") shows sleepers from the PRR, IC, and the C&O.
 
Another photo from the mid-60's shows a colorful consist being delivered to the Sarasota connection of the "WEST COAST CHAMPION" at Tampa, including sleepers from the UP, IC, and ACL.
 
Yes, indeed, this was a truly fascinating and colorful era for varnish enthusiasts.....too bad the curtains were poised to drop on such interesting operations, as passenger train operations slid deeper and deeper into that vast sea of red....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2016, 3:35pm by CLASSB » Logged
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1726
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #17 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 4:05pm »
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Thanks, L.F.L., for your interest.  This kind of "detective work" (when I can make time for it) is interesting and fun!
 
When looking at the larger picture of Interline services (and their demise), I have found it helpful to think of Pullman as a Hotelier, rather than as a Railroader.  After the Pullman breakup of the 1940s, the railroads essentially took over the operation of a mobile hotel chain.
 
Overnight Sleepers made sense in an era before Freeways and air travel, when business travelers could leave work, board the Limited, and arrive next morning refreshed for a AM board meeting in a city 500 miles away.  By the 1950s, you could head to the airport and catch an evening flight, then spend the night in a hotel that didn't move.  Or, perhaps even better, you could sleep in your own bed, then catch an early-morning flight and accomplish the same purpose.  Vacationers and cross-country travelers could use the new Interstates to go when and wherever they wished (and, in an era of 25-cent gasoline, probably for less) and still have their car at their disposal when they got there.  Though it is a sad story from a railfan perspective, the obsolescence of interline Sleepers was nobody's fault, just a once-best option that was eclipsed by new possibilities.
 
 
Still miss 'em,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2016, 4:06pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #18 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 4:44pm »
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Norm:
 
Between "Freeway Mania" and the increased domestic travel by air (especially when the jets started becoming commonplace in the "Jet Set" 60's), it is small wonder why sleeper travel was in decline, as was rail passenger travel in general.
 
On a somewhat related noted, for the 1966-1967 season, ACL's "FLORIDA SPECIAL" added, for the first time, an observation car.
 
The two cars used were both PRR cars, the "MOUNTAIN VIEW" and "TOWER VIEW 5".
 
For a time, B&O's  16 duplex roomette-4 double-bedroom were part of the consists of the CHAMPIONS.
 
Interline coach operation, also, is a most interesting topic.........ahhh, to go back 50 years and to see it all with your own eyes.....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2016, 4:45pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. Lincoln
Former Member
Re: PRR Pullman "interline" through service
 
« Reply #19 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 6:58pm »
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Though not a Pullman photo, this old view is an interesting one, nonetheless.
 
Here we see ACL coach #1123 at Columbus, Georgia; the car is painted in IC colors for use on joint ACL/CofG/IC trains........
 
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acl/acl1123.jpg
 
(courtesy: fallenflags.org)


« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2016, 6:59pm by CLASSB » Logged
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