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B&M 12-2 sleepers
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   Author  Topic: B&M 12-2 sleepers  (Read 134 times)
Omniboi17
Railfan
Posts: 232
B&M 12-2 sleepers
 
« on: Jan 8th, 2013, 9:56pm »
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Does anyone know what B&M trains the heavyweight 12-2 sleepers "Butler University" and "Valparaiso University" were normally assigned to?  Were the trains a joint B&M/PRR venture or did they at least exchange cars with each other?
 
TeRRy S.


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: B&M 12-2 sleepers
 
« Reply #1 on: Jan 9th, 2013, 7:05am »
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TeRRy S. -  
 
Noted these described as "heavyweight" Cars, and as "12-2" plan. Is this right? Printed Timetable Notes support it? Reason being,  
there were a great deal of Cars which were "12 Section/ 1 Drawing Room". Such may have been the case here? I just can't visualize  
a HW 12-2...
 
In any case, a passenger Equipment Register reports twenty-two Cars of the type in service and available at JAN 1954 date. Also,  
entire group noted as leased to PULLMAN COMPANY. So that, in actual assignment, and which specific schedules controlled by  
PULLMAN. Yes, the operating plans often involved through moves over more than one line.
 
Here, in example you recall, (and IIRC) actual movement may have been, and for some of the Cars, some of the time:  
(Origin) B & M (WOR) N Y N H & H (NYC) P R R (Beyond, or Destination).  
My conjecture here assumes some of the nominal B & M Cars may have been deployed in through service to Florida in peak seasons.
 
Wikipedia entry may help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Harbor_Express
 
...........................Vern.....................


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Omniboi17
Railfan
Posts: 232
Re: B&M 12-2 sleepers
 
« Reply #2 on: Jan 9th, 2013, 3:01pm »
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Vern,
 
Thank you for the info.  The cars would have been used in the mid1930s to mid40s.
They were 12 section- 2 dbl bedroom.  The cars were rebuilt to this configuration (Plan 4046) in 1936.  The info is from the "Pullman Plan database".  B&M had two "Butler University" and "Valparaiso University", and the PRR had two "American University" and "New York University" (the Wabash purchased the latter two in 1945).  The Wabash roster also lists the latter two cars as 12 section-2 dbl bedroom plan 4046.  Here is a link to view a floorplan (4046A)
 
http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/pullman-4046a.jpg
 
I'll try the Wikipedia link, too.
 
TeRRy S.


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: B&M 12-2 sleepers
 
« Reply #3 on: Jan 9th, 2013, 4:23pm »
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TeRRy S -
 
Thanks! Remarkable, the Plan 4046, and its use of 2DBR. The two rooms would have fit right in to where otherwise one DR. Note the Register  
cited has JAN 1954 date, the two "University" Cars specifically named, and presumed in regular PULLMAN assignments.
 
..........................Vern.....................


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Omniboi17
Railfan
Posts: 232
Re: B&M 12-2 sleepers
 
« Reply #4 on: Jan 9th, 2013, 4:29pm »
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Vern,
 
It appears that we have a pattern with these "University" cars.  A whole bunch of them were made from other cars by Pullman at the same time.  They all appear to be painted "PRR Red" originally but sold to other railroads later.  I'm beginning to think that maybe these were built for use on joint PRR & somebody else's trains?  Here is some info for the B&M cars from the Pullman database:
 
"Butler University"  Lot#4515  Plan#4046  rebuilt on 06-17-36 from "Neshaminy" Plan# 2410F  Painted PRR Red; Pull. Stnd. 10-10-40; Pull. Stnd. 02-03-54
Sold to B&M on 12-31-48 and leased to Pullman.  Withdrawn from lease on 11-29-54.
 
"Valparaiso University"  Lot#4515  Plan# 4046  rebuilt on 06-15-36 from "Smalley"
Plan# 2410F  Painted PRR Red; Pull. Stnd. 09-24-40; Two-Toned Gray 10-26-41
Sold to B&M on 12-31-48 and leased to Pullman.  Withdrawn from lease on 07-10-64.
 
Now the PRR people have no knowledge of these 12-2 "University" sleepers.  In fact, according to Rob's PRR web site and the "all time heavyweight sleeper listing" there are no "12-2 sleepers" or "University" named cars.  As you can see from the link to the floorplan, apparently the NYC people know about them!!  But the whole bunch of "University" cars (I don't know how many, at least 8 or ten) were all painted PRR Red originally at first!!  A bunch of railroads seemed to get "pairs" of them later, B&M, WAB, NYC, UP, etc.  I'm thinking maybe partner railroads from the joint operations with PRR maybe?
 
These are like "ghost cars" in that nobody claims them!! LOL
 
TeRRy S.


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Omniboi17
Railfan
Posts: 232
Re: B&M 12-2 sleepers
 
« Reply #5 on: Jan 9th, 2013, 4:45pm »
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Oops!!
 
I was typing my reply while you were posting yours!! LOL  OK. what you have indicated makes sense.  They were apparently Pullman "pool" type cars, possibly for assignment to different PRR/joint trains since they were all painted PRR Red at first?  As you have mentioned, every time that I look up consists, etc. I keep seeing 12-1 sleepers listed, but never any 12-2 sleepers.  I have yet to find any trains that they were used on the WAB, but they were clearly on the roster after 1945 and painted "blue" no less!!  Thanks for your help Vern.  These cars are becoming quite interesting!!
 
TeRRy S.


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: B&M 12-2 sleepers
 
« Reply #6 on: Jan 10th, 2013, 6:40am »
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TeRRy S. - All -  
 
OK. Here's my story, and I'm sticking to it. At the same time, it is difficult to be an Aging Coot Emeritus. The mind can imagine anything,  
faithful to every detail, thus it is so easy to recall scenes which never happened...
 
In the period, 1954 - 1958, I attended High School in BAL, at a site just three or four blocks from PRR. So, afternoons after classes, I  
would often be at PENN STATION to view the passing scenes. A great deal of it with the "long haul" NYC - Florida action. Also, there  
was some action of "Midwest" Trains, which to/ from WAS, and traveled thru BAL, then with handling via York and HBG. Notable schedules  
with GENERAL and LIBERTY LIMITED...
 
So that: I believe I recall schedules coming thru with "UNIVERSITY" Cars in the Consists. Yes, they were fairly scarce. Your "Paint Notes"  
imply first use, all PRR RED implies assigned to its "Blue Ribbon Fleet" Pool. With "Two-toned Gray" colors, it implies assignment to  
PULLMAN "Transcon" and "Florida" Pools?
 
I was intrigued with the "Wiki" account, which reports a WOR (MA) Gateway. Your correspondent infers there may have been thru Cars,  
B&M (WOR) NYNHH (NYC) PRR. May have been covered, some schedules, with "UNIVERSITY" Cars? I also have vaguely thought the  
WOR Gateway made possible beyond routings, to/from B&M, and in connection with NYC. But, "PRR RED" tending to rule out the possibility.
 
In the Register (1954) what doesn't help in that B&M reported twenty-two PULLMAN Cars. All of it as one group, however, and not the usual  
series of entries with description of precise Car Type. That is, the listing also shows a couple or so "FORT" Cars.
 
So that: The more we get into this, the more puzzling it gets. I have this feeling others have been here before, and it is all in some published  
works. Besides that, I don't claim much knowledge on how B&M did things...
 
...........................Vern.....................


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Omniboi17
Railfan
Posts: 232
Re: B&M 12-2 sleepers
 
« Reply #7 on: Jan 10th, 2013, 8:41pm »
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Vern,
 
I wonder if the locations of the "actual" university's that the car names denote have anything at all to do with where they were assigned?
 
Butler U. and Valparaiso U. are both in Indiana
American U. is in Washington, D.C. and New York U. is in well, New york!! LOL
PRR had a lot of New York to Washington, D.C. trains!!
 
I know, I know, it was a lame attempt!! LOL
 
TeRRy S.


« Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2013, 8:43pm by Omniboi17 » Logged
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