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Pullmans to Mexico
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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3446
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #20 on: Dec 3rd, 2012, 8:12am »
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HFM -  
 
Keeping all this close to stated original intent... A quite vague and foggy set of memories appeared before me thru the night. I clearly  
recall, tho lack dates and supporting photos, in the now NEC years back, "rare bird" spottings...
 
That being: Now and then, one could spot N. de M. PULLMAN Cars here in the East. It proved the PULLMAN operating practices.  
That is, on an extended "Pool Car" run, each party railroad provided equipment on a "mileage pro-rate" formula. So that: AZTEC EAGLE  
a reality. The Mexican Cars seen which proved it...
 
...............................Vern......................


« Last Edit: Dec 3rd, 2012, 9:02am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #21 on: Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:31am »
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on Dec 3rd, 2012, 8:12am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
HFM -  
 
Keeping all this close to stated original intent... A quite vague and foggy set of memories appeared before me thru the night. I clearly  
recall, tho lack dates and supporting photos, in the now NEC years back, "rare bird" spottings...
 
That being: Now and then, one could spot N. de M. PULLMAN Cars here in the East. It proved the PULLMAN operating practices.  
That is, on an extended "Pool Car" run, each party railroad provided equipment on a "mileage pro-rate" formula. So that: AZTEC EAGLE  
a reality. The Mexican Cars seen which proved it...
 
...............................Vern......................

 
 
Vern:
 
Whoa!
 
Great little bit of rail history, early on a Monday morning!
 
This is the FIRST I've heard of this; TOTALLY surprised that an N. de M. Pullman could be spotted up here, particularly in the East.
 
The "pool" Pullmans I was familiar with as a youngster were those of the NKP, familiar sights at the E-L terminal at Hoboken (There were three cars in this pool. This info was gleaned from 1993 issue of FLAGS, DIAMONDS, AND STATUES)
 
You are now making me recall footage from one of my MARK I videos; very early E-L (or very late DL&W) train hosting several heavyweight Pullmans of the SOUTHERN, SOUTHERN PACIFIC, and PULLMAN, in addition to "company" equipment, passing through Denville, NJ (electrified commuter territory)
 
Sure wish "liner notes" were available for this one!<G>
 
Again, appreciate this interesting bit of rail history......
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:32am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3446
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #22 on: Dec 3rd, 2012, 11:35am »
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on Dec 3rd, 2012, 10:31am, HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...This is the FIRST I've heard of this; TOTALLY surprised that an N. de M. Pullman could be spotted up here, particularly in the East...  

HFM -  
 
The PULLMAN History works detail upon why this had to be. PULLMAN clearly had the AZTEC EAGLE service as one of its through "Lines" in its operations...
 
So, it suggests PULLMAN had worked thru which participating railroads required to assign a "quota" to the run. In this instance, it apportioned between  
P R R - MOPAC/ T & P System - N. de M.... (BTW. Should one read the News, it would take a brave traveler to wish to ride overland South of the Border!
These days, likely U S Dept of State not much protection from unexpected "rough trade" on the train, if operated.)
 
P R R also with much activity with through cars on Northeast - Florida, and East - Texas/ Transcon work. Car control followed same patterns. Much solid  
past published work with coverage of all of it....
 
......................Vern...................


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TAB
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Posts: 1910
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #23 on: Dec 3rd, 2012, 5:06pm »
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.....here is some information from UtahRails.net....Tom
 
Sleeping Car Service on Mexico Railroads
 
1960
Through sleeping car services to the U.S. had been discontinued by 1960. Mexico City to Laredo runs were diesel power cars. (Source; http://www.r2parks.net/NdeM.html)
 
1966
By 1966, Pullman employed a work force of 788 and operated a fleet of 335 Mexican owned or leased sleeping cars and 63 dining and parlor cars in the nation. (Source; http://www.newberry.org/sites/default/files/textpage-attachments/Pullman%20Guide.pdf , as of November 9, 2011)
 
1967
St. Louis-Mexico City sleeping car service was reinstated with the Texas Eagle (MP) from St. Louis to San Antonio, Texas, and the Aztec Eagle (MP/NdeM) San Antonio-Mexico City. (Source; http://www.r2parks.net/NdeM.html)
 
December 31, 1968
Pullman ceased operations in Mexico. Pullman had started operations in Mexico in 1884, providing service between El Paso and Mexico City. The service was successful, except during the Mexican Revolution between 1914 and 1920, lasting until all Pullman operations ceased at the end of 1968. (Source; http://www.pullman-museum.org/theCompany/timeline.html)
 
The following summary of MP and NdeM operations between Laredo and Mexico City comes from the Trains forum, dated March 2, 2010:
 
    NdeM indeed operated the train between Nuevo Laredo and Mexico City, with Missouri Pacific operating between San Antonio and Laredo. Depending on the specific year being discussed, through Pullman cars, coaches and occasionally dining cars were operated from San Antonio to Mexico City without change. In the 1950s, the through Pullman and coach operated from San Antonio as the Aztec Eagle. Prior to the Texas Eagle's inauguration in August 1948, similar equipment originated in St. Louis and operated through as part of the Sunshine Special.
 
    Through St. Louis-Mexico City Pullman service was resumed in the early 1960s and continued until the Pullman Company (in USA) discontinued operations on December 31, 1968 - that date being the date of the last trans-border Pullman crossing. At this time, NdeM Pullman cars routinely operated to St. Louis and MP Pullman cars routinely operated to Mexico City. Through coach service had been reduced to a San Antonio-Nuevo Laredo coach by this time, and this service was discontinued with last car crossing bridge on January 15, 1969.
 
    The bridge itself was operated by Texas-Mexican Railway, and passenger cars were exchanged by being shoved out on bridge by MP crews, with a NdeM locomotive then coming from the Mexico side to pull the cars into Mexico to continue their journey. Customs inspections were conducted during this transfer process.
 
    It was not until after January 15, 1969 that passengers were forced to make their own arrangements to get from Laredo (MP) station to Nuevo Laredo (NdeM) station via the highway bridge. (Source; http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/p/169887/1864773.aspx)
 
November 1970
"Pullman also developed a major presence in Mexico beginning in the 1880s. Its earliest recorded contract there was in 1884 with the Mexican Railroad. By the end of the decade, Pullman's Palace Cars were in regular service between the United States and Mexico. The last scheduled deluxe Pullman operation in Mexico was the tri-monthly, all-vestibule Montezuma Special inaugurated in late 1889 between New Orleans and Mexico City.
 
 Pullman initially operated and maintained its sleeping- and dining-car services in Mexico as districts of its U.S. operations, with employees used interchangeably between the two countries. By an action of the Mexican government in 1934, the movement of employees across the border was ended. Dining-car operations were taken over by the government-run railway in 1961, but Pullman continued as the sleeping-car concessionaire in Mexico until November 1970, nearly two years longer than in the United States."
 
 From: (Travel by Pullman: a century of service, by Joe Welsh, Bill Howes, MBI Publishing Company, 2004; "Pullman passenger service in Mexico ended in late 1970." The Cars of Pullman, by Joe Welsh, Bill Howes, Kevin J Holland, Voyageur Press, 2010)


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3446
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #24 on: Dec 4th, 2012, 7:40am »
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Tom -
 
You note the truly superb efforts of Don Strack, and his comprehensive http://utahrails.net/ work and site.
 
The site Index Page presents a breathtaking library of work, heavily themed to Utah History. This must be among the very  
best sites on the 'Net. The man is deserving of many thanks...
 
In the EAGLE service presentation, it supports that with my own claimed somewhat foggy recall of N. de M. Cars in the  
US East. So, what I saw was: EAGLE thru cars. Group travel for events in the East. Possibly Cars which came thru for  
Eisenhower Inaugural of 1957. Any or all of the possibilities. So, I could have seen this only on PRR, and at points along  
its WAS - NYC line. New York sightings could be a challenge, as Cars were not usually held at Penn Station - 34th St.
 
...........................Vern.......................


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Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #25 on: Apr 6th, 2013, 8:23pm »
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I always wanted to see a photo of the Aztec Eagle passenger train, no matter if between St. Louis and Laredo (USA) or between Nuevo Laredo and Mexico City (Mexico). Because I always wanted to know if all the cars of the train were painted in the same livery, or if there was always a mixture of paint schemes. Furthermore I also wanted to know what year it was streamlined or if it was streamlined at all, or if it also ran as a heavyweight-streamliner-car-mixture. But no matter how much I searched on the internet, I never found such photos or informations. I guess that this international service to Mexico was always quite an overlooked thing by railfans...

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ClydeDET
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #26 on: Apr 7th, 2013, 4:55pm »
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Transcon, I have PAt Dorin's book on Missouri Pacific Passenger Trains during the post-war years. It discusses the service to Mexico, but I went through it expecting to find some pictures - and didn't. Not sure where else to suggest - maybe  Durbin's SOME CLASSIC TRAINS and/or MORE CLASSIC TRAINS or Beebe & Clegg's TRAINS WE RODE (2 vols). I have them, but they aren't handy at the moment so i can't check and say

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Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #27 on: Apr 7th, 2013, 6:02pm »
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Thanks for your effort Cly!
If you find any photos inside these books then please photograph them and upload them here. I would really like to see them, because I like I said before I donīt have a clue about what cartypes were used for this train and what what color scheme the cars had and if it was a color scheme for all cars or different color schemes per car. I would so love to see some photos.
But if there arenīt even any photos of it inside books, then this train is even more overlooked than I first thought of.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #28 on: Apr 8th, 2013, 4:26pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2013, 6:02pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Thanks for your effort Cly!
If you find any photos inside these books then please photograph them and upload them here. I would really like to see them, because I like I said before I donīt have a clue about what cartypes were used for this train and what what color scheme the cars had and if it was a color scheme for all cars or different color schemes per car. I would so love to see some photos.
But if there arenīt even any photos of it inside books, then this train is even more overlooked than I first thought of.

 
I'll look. I am sure there are some, somewhere, some time. But - I'm trying to see if i can recall any and not having much luck.
 
one place that might offer some help would be the DeGolyer Library at SMU - tremendous stock of rail photos (and other railroadiana), many from the southwest and Texas, and many available in digital form.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #29 on: Apr 8th, 2013, 10:29pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2013, 6:02pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Thanks for your effort Cly!
If you find any photos inside these books then please photograph them and upload them here. I would really like to see them, because I like I said before I donīt have a clue about what cartypes were used for this train and what what color scheme the cars had and if it was a color scheme for all cars or different color schemes per car. I would so love to see some photos.
But if there arenīt even any photos of it inside books, then this train is even more overlooked than I first thought of.

 
Found one Aztec Eagle photo, not dated, of ex-NYC Budd stainless steel round-end obs. Has painted letter-board with Nacionale de Mexico painted on it. In Burt Blanton's 400,000 Miles By Rail. I think it is gold lettering on red.


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3446
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #30 on: Apr 9th, 2013, 7:47am »
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Clyde - Transcon - All -  
 
WOW! This thread, topic, line of thought will not cut us any breaks? IIRC, there were a group of ex N Y C Cars, presumably excess Pullmans,  
which known to later appear on N de M. Contrast, here, gold lettering on a red band implies ex P R R? Coulda' happened that way.
 
With the era of Streamline (Lightweight) equipment on AZTEC EAGLE, it suggests three different color treatments (which I saw years back):  
1) MOPAC EAGLE colors, which I recall particularly on B & O. 2) N de M colors, which I recall spotting on P R R, possibly B & O. 3) Possibly?  
Cars in service in classic Pullman Pool, two color greys. Else, many knew a N de M Car when they saw it! Note B & O activity on the East  
- Texas joint line, through PULLMAN services.
 
In any case, they would have been PULLMAN operated Cars. See the comments earlier in the thread, here and just above. In actual operations,  
an AZTEC EAGLE schedule may have involved the interchange of as much as two or three Cars, at TX/MEX Border? Wish we had a Photo source!
 
.............................Vern.....................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #31 on: Apr 9th, 2013, 6:31pm »
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As far as i know, NdM bought a substantial number of ex-NYC cars of stainless steet, light-weight persuasion late 50s or in the 60s (I may be a decade off, may have been 60s and 70s), but don't recall ever seeing anything about buys from the PRR. All the pictures i've seen on those were stainless with colored letterboards.  
 
I think there is a section on MExican service in Dubin, but will have to hunt it to see just how much. Burt Blanton discusses a couple of post-war trips and having the trhough cars pushed across the International Bridge at Laredo. And delays from Mexican customs dealing with checked baggage. I recommend 400,000 MILES BY RAIL for a picture of what rail travel for business primarily could be/was like from the 20s through the fifties.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #32 on: Apr 18th, 2013, 10:46pm »
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Found Arthur Dubin's SOME CLASSIC TRAINS. Didn't find any photos. Then dug MORE CLASSIC TRAINS  (companion volume to SOME CLASSIC TRAINS, also Arthur Dubin), up, and there is a chapter on Mexican  service - title Mexico de Lujo. Photos (none color) of equipment, including Swiss origin streamlined cars, ex-NYC cars and others. Heavyweights in later years and some smooth-side streamliners were painted olive green with an orange stripe below the windows. Others were red and cream or green and cream (think colors of Mexican flag).
 
Sorry i am not set up to scan or otherwise get the images. Which are probably covered by copyright - posting here would PROBABLY count as fair use, but...
 
I'll see what Beebe & Clegg have in TRAINS WE RODE - maybe something, maybe nothing.


« Last Edit: Apr 18th, 2013, 10:48pm by ClydeDET » Logged
Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #33 on: May 26th, 2013, 9:08am »
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Ok Cly,
thanks for your effort.  
That sounds understandable. If you find some time you could still scan it and upload it and give me link to the photos via private message. You donīt have to worry, I will not post them here in the forum. But as you can see Iīm still very interested in seeing these photos, even if itīs only black & white.
But if you canīt do that it is also ok by me.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #34 on: May 26th, 2013, 5:39pm »
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on May 26th, 2013, 9:08am, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Ok Cly,
thanks for your effort.  
That sounds understandable. If you find some time you could still scan it and upload it and give me link to the photos via private message. You donīt have to worry, I will not post them here in the forum. But as you can see Iīm still very interested in seeing these photos, even if itīs only black & white.
But if you canīt do that it is also ok by me.

 
Might be easier to have your library get you copies of the Dubin and Blanton books, and I have always found the DeGolyer helpful if you will just contact them with what you need.


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atlpete
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #35 on: Mar 5th, 2014, 9:13pm »
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Wow, haven't been for awhile but I do still like some of the topics here and this string's subject in particular; My mother immigrated to Mexico City in the late forties, living there and in Argentina for ten years. She rode a through Pullman from St,Louis all the way to the DF and found it both interesting and tiresome.  
I've always been interested in this Eagle Service, both the MP's and NdeM 's.
Some observations for any who are still interested,  
There's an excellent web-site as well as a fairly new Wayner volume on the US cars sold to Mexico.
The site here http://www.pullmanproject.com/Mexico.htm
     Stout's volume on MP passenger trains "Route of the Eagles" has a great 3/4 color shot of MP's #1 The Aztec Eagle "plodding" along behind an SG Geep in 1966 , two bags, and RPO all HW's and reblt HW coach and lw 10-6. Not sure if the through car service had  ended by '66.
In Morning Sun's MP color guide, a pre-war NYC 10-5 Cascade Series in NdeM scheme shows up in a St.Louis as the Mexico City car in 1963. Neat car, most all of the '38 lightweights were shelled off after the NYC's big train-off in the late fifties and the death of the " ' Vanderbilt", this one in 1960.
Neat trains, sadly long gone now.


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Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #36 on: Jan 24th, 2017, 12:07am »
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Hello guys,
I have 2 questions concerning this topic:
 
1. Has the MP/T&P Sunshine Special ever been an All Pullman train? I guess this train certainly featured coaches in the 40s, but what about the 30s and 20s? Being the premier train on the system, I could imagine very well it was an All Pullman train without coaches, but Iīm not sure as I didnīt find out any info about this yet.
 
2. Does anybody of you know where I can find photos of the MP/T&P/NdeM City of Mexico? This exclusive All Pullman train operated only between 1937 and 1940, so I guess photos are very rare. I know that in 1940, the consist looked approximately like this: a baggage, a 13 section sleeper, three 12-1 sleepers, a diner, two 8-1-2 sleepers, a 6-3 sleeper and a solarium buffet lounge observation. But photos would be highly appreciated, as I would love to model this train and because Iīm curious anyway to see how it looked like.


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Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1726
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #37 on: Jan 24th, 2017, 4:09pm »
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Hi, Transcon,  
 
The City of Mexico was apparently a once-a-week Limited, touted as a de Luxe service, so I am certain that equipment would have been top-of-the-line.  Locomotives (steam, I am certain) would have been large, fast, and powerful-- and probably lettered for Missouri Pacific, or Texas & Pacific, or Nacionales de Mexico, depending on which portion of the route you wish to model.
 
The cars you have listed in your consist all appear to be heavyweight floorplans.  During the time frame of 1937 to 1940, Sleeping Cars were owned by (and lettered for) The Pullman Company, and would have said P U L L M A N on the side.  The Baggage Car, Dining Car, and Observation Lounge Car would have been owned by the railroad, and would have carried the railroad's name above the windows.  Sleeping Cars would have been named (centered on the car side below the windows).
 
Here is a link to some more information about the train, including "boarding numbers" for the cars (the little numbers you would have seen in the window next to the door).
 
www.arkansasrailroadhistory.com/Name-Trains-MP/Name-Trains-Notes.htm
 
I'll keep looking for photos and other info.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2017, 6:27pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
jmlaboda
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Posts: 389
Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #38 on: Jan 24th, 2017, 4:19pm »
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Quote:
The Diner would likely have said "Diner" or "Dining Car," and the Observation probably would have said "Solarium."

 
Most roads never applied the words "Diner" and "Dining Car" to their diners, choosing instead to either number or name their diners to make them stand out in consists.  As for the use of the word "Solarium"...  
 
Out of many thousands of shots I have seen over the years I have never seen such used except that it be as a part of the car's name.  Most were Pullman owned just as were the sleepers and those that were Pullman owned carried names.


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Norm_Anderson
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Re: Pullmans to Mexico
 
« Reply #39 on: Jan 24th, 2017, 6:35pm »
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Jerry, let me get this egg off my face, and defer to your expertise in this area.  I've removed the offending line in my last post above.
 
Transcon, you might consider having a look at Jerrys' website
 
http://www.passcarphotos.info

 
It is one of the best photographic archives out there.  By looking through the Missouri Pacific and Ferrocarriles Nacionales de Mexico (located under "N") sections, you might find photos you will find helpful.  
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2017, 6:41pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
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