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"HEAD END/DEAD END"
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   Author  Topic: "HEAD END/DEAD END"  (Read 5909 times)
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #680 on: Jun 27th, 2012, 5:39pm »
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Another view of one of the MOPAC "stretch" express cars.....
 
http://screamingeagles.rrarchives.com/other/r_merrick/merrick_012-096/33_16MAR.jpg


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #681 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 1:17am »
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See also......
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/mp/mp-b264.jpg


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3446
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #682 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 7:29am »
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on Jun 27th, 2012, 1:30pm, HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ wrote:       (Click here for original message)
"THE RED INK EXPRESS" (1959)*
 
*click on link on PC page
 
Note comment here from Mr. Perlman (if this statement was true, then, why was it that the truly evil days of passenger rail came  
about ONLY after most head-end traffic disappeared? Certainly, the railroads weren't making money on hauling passengers)......
 
http://www.kinglyheirs.com/AbandonedRR/PennCentral.html#Redlnk

HFM -
 
Ah! THIS site! You have relied on it before. I find the format and presentation much too disjointed and near incoherent...
 
PERLMAN had his reasons, but it can't be distilled to sound bites. Here, it is out of context of the huge sweep of events which were in play.  
On balance, Perlman wasn't as much a mean S.O.B. as often reported. He wouldn't hit the "game reset" big red button on the Commuter  
operations. I can "what if" that I would have done it differently. That is: Degrees of, "...it had to be done..." moves by Railroad Management.  
(We have had this discussion about "Jersey Side" commute lines. And, just when they thought Perlman was a "hard man"!)
 
Hmmmm... Sidenote. In my own experience, thinking of a national motor carrier, in need of a strong executive head, exercised the talents  
of former D L & W folks. On balance, a solid choice. In the era, Perlman or Jervis Langdon may have been "...on its radar...", too?
 
.......................Vern..................


« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2012, 8:55am by HwyHaulier » Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #683 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 8:58am »
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Vern.....
 
Yes, I have relied on the aforementioned site in the past on various topics; you are quite correct......its presenation and format are pretty well disjointed, and most difficult to follow.
 
A total revamping is needed, without a doubt!
 
To be fair, there IS much of historical interest here, but it is virtually impossible to fully appreciate it in the context it is now presented.
 
Oh, well!
 
Back on track, recall that the last two HOBOKEN-BUFFALO trains (E-L) out of Hoboken (until 1969) were THE OWL and the NEW YORK Mail.
 
Both trains were extremely heavy on the head-end business, but very light on passengers.
 
Is it any wonder why these trains survived all other runs to Buffalo?
 
But, in 1969, with the E-L awash in red ink, it comes as little surprised why these runs were axed......
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2012, 9:01am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3446
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #684 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 9:20am »
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HFM -
 
Well, I am not of a mind to criticize good faith efforts of others. With the PC site, an evident motive to offset costs of upkeep thru  
device of various promos and advts. So, if that is what the Webmaster needs to do...
 
Else, back to E-L. The end of the Mail and Express sealed the fate of the trains. Should one carefully read, and simply the sources  
cited in this instant thread, it quickly establishes the empty fallacies we hear today.
 
Whatever the fashion du jour: NO! NO! NO! With a healthy "mix of business" (ala' Ed Ellis thinking) a "broad spectrum" Passenger  
Service operation CAN come out NET, NET ahead on money! Else, we would have the burden of thinking all the past operators as fools!
 
.........................Vern....................


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Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #685 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 9:50am »
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Vern.....
 
E-L Trains #'s 7 and 8, like the aforementioned HOB-BUFFALO runs, were heavy on head-end loadings, but light on the passengers.
 
The E-L first stopped telling the public what the schedules would be, eliminating them from the public TT's, after dropping the names.
 
The only coach on these trains afterwards were rider coaches for crew use.
 
When the RPO's were pulled from the E-L, and REA going under, the trains were left with nothing to carry, and were discontinued.
 
As it is written:
 
 ".....passenger business is NOT a pretty picture......"
 
"H.F.M."


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #686 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 12:56pm »
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Another of MOPAC's "stretch" express cars, seen here in later years, serving as a MOW "diner"......
 
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=147248


« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2012, 12:56pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
ClydeDET
Historian
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Posts: 4794
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #687 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 3:14pm »
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on Jun 27th, 2012, 4:05pm, HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Raffish, yet impressive collection of MOPAC express cars in freight service, 1975 (note "stretch" equipment).......
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/mp/mp-bagg.jpg

 
Not sure those are actually in freight service or not - clearly include a couple of the 135-series 70' express boxes, as ell as a couple of ex-heavyweight baggage-express cars, the cars still in very faded and ratty passenger blue for the heavy-weights.


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3446
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #688 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 3:34pm »
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CLYDE -
 
See the "Screaming Eagle" link here earlier with notes about the cars. About 1976, they were  
"de-rated" from 100,000 lbs. Cargo to 76,000 lbs. (and IIRC). No explanation for it. May have been  
possible metal fatigue concerns?
 
For myself, if I were supervising loading, I would have been skittish about too much weight on center  
of the cars. You can break those things, you know!
 
..........................Vern.........................


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #689 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 4:32pm »
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on Jun 28th, 2012, 3:14pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Not sure those are actually in freight service or not - clearly include a couple of the 135-series 70' express boxes, as ell as a couple of ex-heavyweight baggage-express cars, the cars still in very faded and ratty passenger blue for the heavy-weights.

 
Clyde:
 
Caption stated that the cars were "in a freight train".......perhaps cars were simply "empties" in transit to another destination........
 
"H.F.M."


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ClydeDET
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Posts: 4794
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #690 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 6:07pm »
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on Jun 28th, 2012, 4:32pm, HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Clyde:
 
Caption stated that the cars were "in a freight train".......perhaps cars were simply "empties" in transit to another destination........
 
"H.F.M."

 
 
Umm - the caption didn't make it through when I clicked the link and got the piccie. But I tooka nother look and there are other freight cars  in the string. Looks like the 135s have been painted box-car red, the heavyweight baggage-express cars still in passenger colors, but clearly no longer in passenger service, as the MoPac never allowed cars to get that ratty if they were running in passenger service. Interesting to see passenger cars, even head-end cars (other than express reefers or express boxes) in (it seems) freight service. Interesting that all the former passenger equipment seems to be together (12000-series hi-cube box, 135-sereis car, heavy-weight, 135-series car, heavyweight car, 135-series car,  standard box, tanker)


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #691 on: Jun 28th, 2012, 6:48pm »
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Clyde:
 
Thank you!
 
Apppreciate the additional info......
 
"H.F.M."


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #692 on: Jun 29th, 2012, 12:19am »
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NYC heavyweight horse express car......
 
http://canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-5617.jpg


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #693 on: Jun 29th, 2012, 12:22am »
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NYC express car (ex-troop sleeper).......
 
http://canadasouthern.com/caso/images/nyc-9291.jpg


« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2012, 12:23am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #694 on: Jun 29th, 2012, 12:30am »
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PRR MU baggage/express #5970 ("MB62") at Lancaster, PA, 1957.
 
The LIRR once operated similiar equipment......
 
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1158973


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #695 on: Jun 29th, 2012, 9:47am »
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Ex-NYC heavyweight relegated to MOW service at Elkhart, Indiana......
 
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=885704


« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2012, 9:48am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #696 on: Jun 29th, 2012, 10:28am »
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SP "HARRIMAN" combo in DAYLIGHT paint (undated view/no location given).......
 
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/sp3176.jpg


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #697 on: Jun 30th, 2012, 9:37am »
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All:
 
Last evening, was browsing through Karl R. Zimmerman's "THE REMARKABLE GG-1", and two photos in particular caught my eye.
 
One photo from 1956 shows a lengthy "THE DUSQUENE" consist near Lancaster.
 
What appears to be a lightweight cooach is just behind the engine, followed by a long string of head-end cars, with several more passenger cars trailing them.
 
Obviously, there must have been a reason to put this passenger-carrying car ahead of the head-end stock; surely, nothing out of the ordinary here, but it just happened to catch my eye.
 
The other photo shows "THE KEYSTONE" at Iselin, NJ, back in 1967, with what the caption describes as a "mixed consist".
 
Head-end cars and "conventional" equipment are mixed in unique "KEYSTONE" cars.
 
Was this a common practice in later years?
 
AFAIK, this is the only photo I've seen of "KEYSTONE" equipment in a consist with head-end cars.
 
I defer to the more knowledeable on this one.......
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: Jun 30th, 2012, 9:48am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3446
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #698 on: Jun 30th, 2012, 10:18am »
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HFM -
 
I have no claims to "PRR Know It All and Authority"! <G> Have logged a lot of time on and around its trains.
 
DUQUESNE? First coach in consist, and I don't have access to the photo? I'd spot them for an example of "Carrier Operating Convenience".  
A presumption it was simply equipment repositioning?
 
KEYSTONE? By 1967, the bloom was off the rose with the experiment. Get over to the Bowen work on "Streamliners", and related 'Net sites  
about the trains. Keep in mind there were a defined set of Cars of KEYSTONE design.
 
We can assume: Were there strong rider numbers for particular departure times, and in excess seats on KEYSTONE Cars, added coaches  
would need be added. (As I continually remind and nag: Always consider operating parameters which directly influenced how to run the schedules.)
Also, P R R apparently not given to "Second Section" trains, except when most strongly compelled. A pair of GG-1 types could pull very long consists!
 
........................Vern..................  
 


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Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: "HEAD END/DEAD END"
 
« Reply #699 on: Jun 30th, 2012, 10:24am »
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Vern......
 
Many thanks!
 
IMHO, you are FAR more an authority on this subject than your humble associate!
 
After all, like Hebrew National, ".....I must answer to a HIGHER authority....."<G>
 
Several other vintage photos in this fine book concur your many observations in the past, reflecting on the lengthy, heavy head-consists once operated by the PRR.
 
Even through the 1960's, there were still some quite impressive trains in this realm.............
 
'H.F.M."


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