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Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
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   Author  Topic: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style  (Read 1870 times)
ClydeDET
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #200 on: Jun 6th, 2012, 9:52pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2012, 9:38am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Clyde - All -  
 
The use, by 1888, of styling SANTA FE ROUTE intriguing. Implicit the Railroad evolving into a larger System?  
The phrase possibly used in various promotional publications. Use of "ROUTE" possibly implies through services,  
running SANTA FE rails, and in connection with other partner carriers (which may have also been controlled by  
the Company)?
 
I suppose well documented History volumes have it in print about how services precisely promoted.
 
......................Vern.................

 
There are a number of histories of the Santa Fe that cover how the road developed and how its services developed with it. Like most of the 19th century transcons (and of course - none were true transcontinentals), it did a lot of its growing by purchasing or otherwise acquiring other railroads. Some essentially disappeared into the big road (except perhaps as reporting marks and accounting entries, and perhaps payments of franchse taxes, long with lists of officials in the OFICIAL GUIDE), while others were a little more visible.
 
In Dallas, there are two buildings faing Commerce Street downtown. One is a delightful small office building, The Katy Building, and it has M-K-T heralds as part of the architectural detail aound it above the first or secind floor, along with an encised "MISSOURI - KANSAS & TEXAS RAILROAD". The other is now part of the Earl Cabell Federal Building complex - rather larger, sheathed in limestone instead of brick built, it is the Santa Fe Building. And in Galveston, at the foot of Post Office Street is a (for Galveston) skyscraper. On the first floor, it was Galveston Union Station and more recently the Galveston Railroad Museum (devastated by Hurricane Ike, and whether is it open again, I don't know). The upper floors were the headquarted of the Gulf, Colorado & SAnta Fe, begun by the Galveston bankers and cotton merchants, the Moodys, Northens and Sealys. to probide access tot he iland that by-passed Houston. The AT&SF acquired the GC&SF and maintained it to cover the legal requirements of the State of Texas that held nobody was going to operate a railroad in Tejas that wasn't chartered and headquartered in the state - the Katy Building was built as HQ of the MKT of Texas...


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Norm_Anderson
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #201 on: Jun 6th, 2012, 11:43pm »
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Clyde is right about this.  The slogan, Santa Fe-- All The Way!, was not an idle boast.  Only two US railroad companies could boast single-carrier status all the way from Lake Michigan to Pacific tidewater-- the Milwaukee Road, and the Santa Fe.  Great Northern and Northern Pacific needed Burlington rails to reach Chicago; Union Pacific, at various times, partnered with Milwaukee Road or Chicago and North Western (depending on when you asked); then, there was CB&Q/D&RGW/WP.  Even in 1869, you needed Rock Island-Union Pacific-Central Pacific.  Southern Pacific partnered with the Rock Island to operate the Golden State.  Only Santa Fe's long-distance varnish, and the Milwaukee's Olympian or Olympian Hiawatha made it all the way from Chicago to the Coast without changing hosts.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2012, 11:44pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
HwyHaulier
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #202 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 6:58am »
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Norm - Clyde - All -
 
TRUE! (To whatever the question here! <G>)
 
This would take me digging out the ATSF volumes here at the bunker. Seems to me, particularly in 1880s Era, the Railroad could  
promote CGO - KCY - Southwest - Southern California tickets as "SANTA FE ROUTE". Not every segment of travel necessarily on  
line legally the A T & S F entity.
 
Too, Clyde recalls the quite adamant stand of the Lone Star Republic, wherein it did not countenance anything but local presence,  
legally local lines of track in the State.
 
Also, the legal status of any of the track West of El Paso and Albuquerque. Compare: "SANTA FE - ALL THE WAY" with some  
subtle differences than phrase, "SANTA FE ROUTE"  
 
Explanatory Note: Yes, in a past life, I had "hands on" with all of these kinds of issues in trucking, during 1960s - 1970s. Example:  
Assume a transcon cargo shipment tendered to NAVAJO FREIGHT. Customer received one through bill, of course.
 
In the precisely legal routing, however, the move being: GENERAL EXPRESSWAYS - ELLIS TRUCK - JOE HODGES - NAVAJO  
FREIGHT. Similar examples with other lines, including CFWY, YELLOW, P-I-E. Made for a great deal of work for the Revenue  
Accounting guys!
 
.......................Vern....................


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ehbowen
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #203 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 8:46am »
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I have a copy of Keith L. Bryant Jr.'s excellent History of the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway at home; while I do not have it to hand at this moment it does cover in detail Santa Fe's growth from Wakarusa Creek to the Pacific Ocean. Cyrus K. Holliday and the rest of the Santa Fe management always had a Pacific through route in mind and it was William B. Strong, more than any other single individual, who made that dream become reality. Strong was originally Chief Engineer and later (from 1881) president of the road; some dates that I have down on my 1889 California Express page are: Through service from Kansas City to Los Angeles began on May 31, 1887; through service from Kansas City to Galveston began two weeks later on June 18; and service on the Kansas City-Chicago line began on April 29, 1888.
 
For various financial and legal reasons different portions of the railroad had independent corporate structures; the KC-Chi line being the "Chicago, Santa Fe & California" railroad while the Albuquerque-Barstow run was known as the "Atlantic & Pacific" into the 20th century. Corporate shell games notwithstanding, it was a single system under a single top management. While a few pieces (the Santa Fe had briefly controlled the Frisco and the Colorado Midland) would be written off and released in the 1893 bankruptcy and subsequent reorganization, the core of the system would remain intact all the way to BNSF.
 
The "Santa Fe Route" logo was management's first attempt to establish a unified systemwide "brand"; however there was a clash of identity between the southwestern image of Santa Fe and the French etymology of "Route". IIRC one of the employees came up with the now-familiar Santa Fe circle-and-cross logo, which quickly eclipsed "Santa Fe Route" and became ubiquitous system-wide.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #204 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 9:29am »
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Eric -  
 
Many Thanks for your meticulous recap of events on A T S F in the era! Well, yes, the "...old boys network..." quite ingenious  
in playing off structures using actual, owned lines of track, leased lines, other controlled lines (with distinct and unique names),  
and so on...
 
What you are noting here, I guess? The Railroad should be acknowledged as a Marketing Pioneer, with a solid appreciation of  
importance of a "national brand".
 
The underlying legal issues could get downright Byzantine. Note, too, the appearance of the (Federal) ICC, with all its obsessions  
with who controlled whom, and so on. As long as the ICC around and active, it had its own in house insanity, as its "business as  
usual" stances. (Imagine, if you will, the day it came to the knowledge ESPEE on a drive to control anything that moved! <G>)
 
......................Vern...................


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Norm_Anderson
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #205 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 9:32am »
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Eric, thanks for your concise and clear-headed synopsis.  William B. Strong was so influential in the fortunes of the Company that they even named a town after him.  (Maybe two towns, if Strong City, Kansas qualifies).  But for the town I have in mind, they used Mr. Strong's middle name -  -  Barstow.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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Transcon
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #206 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 3:54pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2012, 11:43pm, Norm_Anderson wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde is right about this.  The slogan, Santa Fe-- All The Way!, was not an idle boast.  Only two US railroad companies could boast single-carrier status all the way from Lake Michigan to Pacific tidewater-- the Milwaukee Road, and the Santa Fe.  Great Northern and Northern Pacific needed Burlington rails to reach Chicago; Union Pacific, at various times, partnered with Milwaukee Road or Chicago and North Western (depending on when you asked); then, there was CB&Q/D&RGW/WP.  Even in 1869, you needed Rock Island-Union Pacific-Central Pacific.  Southern Pacific partnered with the Rock Island to operate the Golden State.  Only Santa Fe's long-distance varnish, and the Milwaukee's Olympian or Olympian Hiawatha made it all the way from Chicago to the Coast without changing hosts.

Letīs not forget that Southern Pacific was the only railroad whose rail stretched from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean. I mean the Bay of Mexico is nothing else than a part of the Atlantic Ocean. So Espees New Orleans to Los Angeles or San Francisco trains were the only trains that ran from coast to coast and also under a single carrier.
 


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ClydeDET
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #207 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 5:24pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2012, 3:54pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Letīs not forget that Southern Pacific was the only railroad whose rail stretched from the Atlantic Ocean to the Pacific Ocean.. I mean the Bay of Mexico is nothing else than a part of the Atlantic Ocean. So Espees New Orleans to Los Angeles or San Francisco trains were the only trains that ran from coast to coast and also under a single carrier.
 

 
Not quite - the Santa Fe did that too. Galveston to KC and then west, or Galveston to Amarillo and on west. EsPee (via the Sunset Route) was perhaps a bit more direct, but Santa Fe did it too.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #208 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 5:48pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2012, 6:58am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Norm - Clyde - All -
 
TRUE! (To whatever the question here! <G>)
 
This would take me digging out the ATSF volumes here at the bunker. Seems to me, particularly in 1880s Era, the Railroad could  
promote CGO - KCY - Southwest - Southern California tickets as "SANTA FE ROUTE". Not every segment of travel necessarily on  
line legally the A T & S F entity.
 
Too, Clyde recalls the quite adamant stand of the Lone Star Republic, wherein it did not countenance anything but local presence,  
legally local lines of track in the State.
 
Also, the legal status of any of the track West of El Paso and Albuquerque. Compare: "SANTA FE - ALL THE WAY" with some  
subtle differences than phrase, "SANTA FE ROUTE"  
 
Explanatory Note: Yes, in a past life, I had "hands on" with all of these kinds of issues in trucking, during 1960s - 1970s. Example:  
Assume a transcon cargo shipment tendered to NAVAJO FREIGHT. Customer received one through bill, of course.
 
In the precisely legal routing, however, the move being: GENERAL EXPRESSWAYS - ELLIS TRUCK - JOE HODGES - NAVAJO  
FREIGHT. Similar examples with other lines, including CFWY, YELLOW, P-I-E. Made for a great deal of work for the Revenue  
Accounting guys!
 
.......................Vern....................

 
Indeed Texas did have its own feelings. Leading to the KCS having bought a Tejas line, the Rock Island having the Chicagi Rock Island & Gulf, Burlington the Fort Worth & Denver, Katy had its HQ in Texas, EsPee the Houston & Texas Central, Houston East & West Texas and Texas & New Orleans and others, all ultimately brought under one corporate umbrella. Cottton Belt hadits HQ in a fairly impressive office building (now a county office building that also houses a Texas Court of Appeals) in Tyler. Not sure what the Frisco's Texas operation was formally known as, or where its HQ was. There is a book (VERY SCARCE, but our college library has a ciopy) that has a year by year listing of railroiad building and abandonment in Tejas, from before the War of Northern Aggression to - i don't recall. 1950 or 1960, perhaps. It would help identify things. You could probably turn out an interesting monograph (interesting to railfans, anyhow) just on the lines built in Texas and what systems they became or became part of, and when the various corporate shells were finally abandoned when texas finally abandoned its requirement for at least formal ownership of Texas lines in Texas corporations.


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Transcon
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #209 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 7:37pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2012, 5:24pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Not quite - the Santa Fe did that too. Galveston to KC and then west, or Galveston to Amarillo and on west. EsPee (via the Sunset Route) was perhaps a bit more direct, but Santa Fe did it too.

Oh, I never knew that the Santa Fe actually owned the track between Houston and Galveston. I thought they only had trackage rights on it.  
Interestingly they never ran a train Galveston or at least Houston-Los Angeles (via Amarillo).


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ehbowen
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Posts: 242
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #210 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 8:27pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2012, 7:37pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Oh, I never knew that the Santa Fe actually owned the track between Houston and Galveston. I thought they only had trackage rights on it.  
Interestingly they never ran a train Galveston or at least Houston-Los Angeles (via Amarillo).

 
Santa Fe's Texas predecessor road G. C. & S. F. (later the corporate entity for the Texas Gulf lines) built and owned the main line from Galveston through Alvin, Rosenberg, Brenham, Temple, and points north to Oklahoma City and west to Clovis, NM. Houston was reached by a (main-line quality) branch from Alvin. Santa Fe later granted trackage rights (for freight only, as best as I can determine) to the Burlington-Rock Island between Houston, Texas City and Galveston and to Missouri Pacific (I.-G.N.) from Houston to Algoa, where their lines to South Texas diverged. (MoP had service to Galveston via the G.H.&H. route shared with Katy).
 
Santa Fe did operate transcontinental passenger service from Houston to California, albeit not by a through train. The California Special carried through cars from Houston and Dallas-Fort Worth which were then transferred to the company's Chicago-LA/SF trains at Clovis, New Mexico.


« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2012, 8:31pm by ehbowen » Logged

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Norm_Anderson
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #211 on: Jun 7th, 2012, 11:51pm »
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I am very happy to concede Transcon's point, and posit that the Gulf of Mexico is, indeed, an extension of the Atlantic Ocean (of course, if we want to push this to extremes, we can agree that the continents themselves are simply gigantic islands, and that "coast-to-coast" is really a connection between different points on the same coast!)
 
But I digress . . .
 
New Orleans to Los Angeles via the Sunset Limited was 1,996 miles (3,211 km).
 
Los Angeles to Martinez via the Owl was 448 miles (721 km).
 
Martinez to Portland via the Shasta Daylight was 683 miles (1,099 km).
 
The total distance from New Orleans to Portland, by the shortest SP routings available, was 3,127 miles (5,032 km).  Granted, you would need to change trains twice, but you would always be riding SP- owned or controlled rails).  And I think the trip, without dallying, would require three nights en route, and somewhere around 72 hours' time.
 
That's "Transcontinental" in my book, and very, very close in distance to the most direct New York to Los Angeles transcontinental Sleeper services.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2012, 4:22pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Transcon
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #212 on: Jun 8th, 2012, 5:55am »
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Well, letīs not forget that before WW2, you only needed to change trains once when riding the Espee from New Orleans to Portland:
You could ride the Sunset Limited from New Orleans to San Francisco and then board the Cascade in Oakland for Portland. Or you could ride the Sunset Limited to Los Angeles and then change to the West Coast, which was as far as I know the only Los Angeles-Portland through train. The West Coast was discontinued between Sacramento and Portland in 1947 I guess. Too bad there was never a New Orleans-Portland through train though...
But I think the longest run you could have on a single through passenger train was on the RI/SP Golden State Limited before 1942, when it was an Chicago-Kansas City-Tucumcari-El Paso-Phoenix-Los Angeles-San Francisco through train via the Coast Line. I think that this routing is even longer than the one of the Santa Fe San Francisco Chief via Amarillo and Bakersfield.


« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2012, 6:02am by Transcon » Logged
HwyHaulier
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #213 on: Jun 8th, 2012, 7:33am »
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Transcon - All -  
 
ESPEE "WEST COAST"? Agree. Apparently the entire point to the schedule in it provided "short route" daily between Los Angeles  
and Portland. It "...ran the Valley..." and did not get into San Francisco. (The train noted in film, Double Indemnity, of 1944.)
 
Other events in the earlier time line. Back before Legislation which served to protect the new Panama Canal, ESPEE also very active  
in Steamship Lines. Its "Morgan Line" apparently steamed between New York, East Coast, Southern Range and Gulf Ports. So that,  
ESPEE had a New York presence...
 
All the more reason SANTA FE must have been compelled to have CITY TICKET OFFICE presence in New York, too. Official Guide  
publications of the era should provide exact street addresses.
 
...........................Vern................


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ehbowen
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #214 on: Jun 9th, 2012, 12:03pm »
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on Jun 8th, 2012, 5:55am, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)

But I think the longest run you could have on a single through passenger train was on the RI/SP Golden State Limited before 1942, when it was an Chicago-Kansas City-Tucumcari-El Paso-Phoenix-Los Angeles-San Francisco through train via the Coast Line. I think that this routing is even longer than the one of the Santa Fe San Francisco Chief via Amarillo and Bakersfield.

 
I do not check you on the Golden State Limited being a Chicago-San Francisco train before 1942. I admit that I have not checked every single year, but I did check June 1941, Sept. 1938, and January 1927. All of those timetables show the Golden State Limited as strictly a Chicago-Tucumcari-Los Angeles train, albeit with close connections available for continued travel up the coast. Do you have any more specific information which shows the Golden State operating through to San Francisco?


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #215 on: Jun 9th, 2012, 4:13pm »
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Eric -  
 
I've been thinking on this, and inclined to go with your rationale. ESPEE had little reason to "play nice" with ROCK ISLAND, ICC Protection Order regardless.
(I can document some 'sneaky' workarounds it routinely did!)
 
On through riders, Chicago - Bay Area, it had every reason to sell its own Overland Route (via Ogden). Joint service, Golden State into the game fairly late.  
I can appreciate convenient connections at Los Angeles, northward. Either Coast Line or Valley routings. ESPEE had habits of doing things its own way!
 
.......................Vern...............


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ClydeDET
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #216 on: Jun 10th, 2012, 2:00pm »
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Dubin in MORE CLASSIC TRAINS has an entry for the Golden State Limited. He indicates it was strictly a Chcago-LA train, BUT,there wsa a through pullman on it that came off the Golden State at LA and went on the San Francisco on the Owl. Trip to SF took 87 hours....

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HwyHaulier
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #217 on: Jun 10th, 2012, 2:56pm »
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Clyde -
 
It works for me! All it takes is locate the Time Tables which reported it.
 
ESPEE would have been inclined to work a San Francisco Sleeper into
THE LARK, or THE OWL...  
 
.........................Vern................


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Norm_Anderson
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #218 on: Jun 10th, 2012, 4:48pm »
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Vern, it's amazing what I've never paid attention to . . .
 
Sitting on my bookshelf is a massive tome by Lucius Beebe, titled The Central Pacific & The Southern Pacific Railroads. (Berkeley, Calif.; Howell-North Books, 1963).  In an Appendix at the rear, there is a listing (compiled by one Robert Hancocks of the Southern Pacific Public Relations Department) of what appears to be every SP passenger service of note, with every service change, train number change, routing change, what-have-you.
 
I was astounded to learn that the Sunset Limited was a San Francisco-New Orleans service, all the way up to World War 2.  There were a couple of "interludes" (a few months, or as much as a year) where service was curtailed to Los Angeles-New Orleans, but the permanent change didn't take place until January 5, 1942 (four weeks after Pearl Harbor).  This was also the time when the Sunset began carrying Numbers 1 & 2.  Prior to this, at various times, the trains carried numbers 1000-1001, 25-26, 101-102, and even 77-78.  Also, prior to 1901, the Sunset operated over Tehachapi Pass.
 
The Golden State, on the other hand, was always a Chicago-Los Angeles service.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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ClydeDET
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #219 on: Jun 10th, 2012, 8:17pm »
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Yes, a Chicago-LA train was the Golden State - but with that through Pullman to San Francisco Dubin mentions....
 
12/1964 OG shows Golden State arricing at LA at 0815, leaving at 0915 and arrivinf at SF at 1900. Doesn't indicate what equipment beyond LA is, but it shows (Table 30, California - Coast LIne) #99 leaving LA at 0915, arriving San Jose at 1753 and San Francisco at 1700. 99 is the Streamliner Coast Daylight, and by 1964, was clearly not carrying a sleeper, so the SF service would have requiredy a train change at that point.


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