Railfan.net Home Railfan Photos ABPR Archives Staff Safari Photos Railfan Links

Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please Sign In or Register. Sep 20th, 2017, 4:24pm
Categories •  FastIndex •  LongIndex •  Help •  Search •  Members  •  Sign In •  Register


Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
   Railfan.net Web Forums
   Varnish
   Passenger Trains
(Moderator: coaster)
   Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint
   Author  Topic: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style  (Read 1875 times)
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #180 on: May 30th, 2012, 6:53pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify   Remove

More historical info on the Harvey Houses......
 
http://www.harveyhouses.net/fredco.html


Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3439
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #181 on: May 31st, 2012, 9:21am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Transcon - NORM - HFM -  
 
Signature Press? See: http://signaturepress.com/
 
Yes, it does have much of the Howell-North work. In its current catalog, at least one volume tracing history and "look" of A T S F over the years.  
There is no listing of the History I have noted here, earlier...
 
...................Vern...................


Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #182 on: May 31st, 2012, 11:20am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify   Remove

Gentlemen:
 
Thought this might be of some interest.......
 
"H.F.M."
 
http://www.waynoka.org/harveyhouse.php


« Last Edit: May 31st, 2012, 11:21am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #183 on: May 31st, 2012, 1:10pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify   Remove

See also......
 
http://harvey-house.info/


Logged
Transcon
Historian
Posts: 359
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #184 on: May 31st, 2012, 10:23pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Hello guys,
wow, Iīm impressed by all the informations! Thank you! Now I really learned some proper facts about Santa Fe history which I didnīt know until this point.  
I thought, that through passenger service on a western railroad was always introduced immediately (in the same year) after completition of the mainline. But as I know now, that was not the case. The most interesting new facts for me now are that there was no single through Chicago-Los Angeles train before the introduction of the California Limited in 1892, and that the first dining car service on the Santa Fe started in 1888 according to Steve Glischinskys book. I think we can pretty much be sure then, that there were no other Santa Fe passenger trains equipped with closed Palace cars before the California Limited, which, as a premier train, might have been the very first Santa Fe train to be entirely equipped with Palace cars. So we can say that until 1892, open platform cars ruled the rails on the Santa Fe entirely. So my favored time frame is 1888-1892. I really would like to have a dining car on my train, so I thought about the idea of using the business car as dining car. Iīm planning to install self made interiors into the cars. So for the "dinerized" business car, this might turn out in a very unique interior design with the kitchen being in the center of the car, because there are some smaller windows in the middle of the car, which can be defined as kitchen area from the outside. It would of course be interesting to have some information about the interiors of 4-wheel-truck open platform dining cars of the Santa Fe before 1892! At least, a dining car with a kitchen positioned in the middle of the car is not that much out of this world, because Iīve seen some floor plans of some east african dining cars, whose kitchen is in the center of the car.  
Here is a photo of my train so far. There are still 2 coaches missing, which will be newly released by Roundhouse in August this year and I will buy them then. The difference between coaches and sleepers will only be visible by the different style of interiors that I want to put in the cars. Because the window arrangement of the coaches looks pretty much the same as the one of the sleepers when you look at old photos from those times.
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/8834/dscn1266o.jpg
I also already decided, that the rain will definetly be pulled by a 4-6-0 made by Mantua/Tyco. Here is the photo of the engine that Iīm planning to buy:
http://www.imagevital.com/i/upload/User/0ARNouk/P1370764.JPG
And here is the photo of the tender:
http://www.imagevital.com/i/upload/User/0ARNouk/P1370765.JPG
Itīs a Denver, South Park & Pacific engine. Iīm planning to overpaint the lettering and apply some Santa Fe lettering. But the problem is that I donīt know, how a 4-6-0 tender from that time was lettered: was it "Santa Fe" or "AT&SF" or maybe "A.T.&S.F.R.R."?
Interestingly, that model really goes very well for a Santa Fe engine! Because when you compare the model to the 4-6-0 that pulls the California Limited in 1898 in this video, you can see that this 500 or 600 series 4-6-0 also has that larger space/gap between the second and the third set of driving wheels. The overall style is also very similar. So I think itīs gonna be a good decision.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ug8NEzLOOs
Since I want to have a pre 1892 long distance train, I think I will go for that Albuquerque-San Francisco train, which is also quite a long routing. And I will simply name it Pacific or Atlantic Express for west and eastbound if that was the case with all Santa Fe "named" passenger trains before the California Limited.  
Ok, letīs sum it up here:
Time: 1888-1892
Pacific/Atlantic Express Albuquerque-SanFrancisco/San Francisco-Albuquerque
4-6-0 steam engine by Mantua/Tyco
1. RPO
2. Baggage-Coach (Combine)
3. Coach
4. Sleeper (Coach)
5. Sleeper (Coach)
6. Diner (Business Car)
All passenger cars are open platform 50īOverland cars of course.
I think it will be a really nice looking "wild west" train once it is finished.
 
About travelling on open platform cars: I think that it was possible to get from one car to another by crossing little "bridges" that were expanded/swung out above the couplers at the center of the platform. But of course changing cars was not comfortable, because first you had to get outside in the dust/heat/rain/snow/cold, and still these little "bridges" were dangerous to cross because of the lack of better handrails and stuff. I mean you didnīt have a kind of fence to the left and right of you on that bridge. And the train was shakeing, so you could easily lose your balance and fall off the train.  
So a closed vestibule really represented a huge step forward not only in comfort but also in safety.


« Last Edit: Jun 1st, 2012, 8:36am by Transcon » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3439
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #185 on: Jun 1st, 2012, 6:56am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Transcon -
 
A good account of A T S F, and the earlier, Atlantic and Pacific RR:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_and_Pacific_Railroad
 
In References, it recalls Donald Duke and Stan Kistler, Santa Fe: Steel Rails Through California, 1963.
 
The dates are vital, of course. One can get wary of possible dates of Dining Car availability on the trains.  
There was such a widespread practice of trains stopping at, and reliant upon enroute Station Dining Rooms  
and Hotels.
 
(Edit 0630 HR ET SA 2 JUN). Also, of note, the first of any Air Brake devices patented, and presumed  
immediately in production, in 1869. Which leads to the problems of open platform passenger cars.  
Older equipment would have needed brakemen on duty.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westinghouse_Air_Brake_Company
 
IMHO, I am having a lot of troubles with the notion that, with the old equipment, riders could freely pass at  
their own whim, between the cars while in transit. So much used to be Common Law tenets. In event any  
problems, a rider could claim "reckless endangerment" by the Railroad?
 
(Edit 1100 HR ET SA 2 JUN). Many Thanks to HFM in find of this site. Explains the practices of the post  
Civil War Era, with respect to rail travel, dining rooms and hotels...
http://www.trainweb.org/rshs/GRS%20-%20Susquehanna,%20PA.htm
 
 
..........................Vern......................


« Last Edit: Jun 2nd, 2012, 11:06am by HwyHaulier » Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3439
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #186 on: Jun 3rd, 2012, 12:12pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

ATTENTION - ALL HANDS! -
 
This 'WIKI' account of Railroad Signals is vital!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_railroad_signals
 
Your writer persuaded that night time running not an option, absent a reliable signal system. Note, too, is wasn't all that practical to do it,  
until in the era of the A T S F through trains, Chicago - California!
 
So that? Trains ran Station to Station, so as to receive movement orders? On Passenger services, all needed to go to a Dining Room, and  
an overnight stay at adjacent Hotel?
 
........................Vern..................
 


Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1726
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #187 on: Jun 3rd, 2012, 10:35pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Before railroad signals were powered by electricity, they were fueled by kerosene, and manually operated.  Even into the 20th Century, electric signals were not ubiquitous-- in Chard Walker's superb book about Cajon Pass, he relates the story of an "old timer" who once had to climb the ladder on the signal mast at Summit, during a howling blizzard at night, because the wind kept blowing the light out!
 
But even before kerosene signal lights, train movements were governed by such things as "Ball Signals"-- just what it sounds like; a white ball on a rope passed over a pulley-- if the ball was in the lowered position, trains had to stop-- if it was hoisted high, trains could proceed (hence, the term Highball!)  Ball signals were unlighted, but locomotive headlights, even then, were powerful enough to reveal them at night.
 
In the days before automatic, remote-controlled signalling, movement of trains was usually governed by Train Order, with designated meets spelled out.  I'm sure it was a labor-intensive process, but I don't think any of this would have been a significant barrier to nighttime running-- George Pullman built his Sleeping Car Pioneer in 1865; but experiments with Sleepers in the US date to 1839.  This means that, by 1839, overnight train travel was commonplace enough to make the idea of Sleeping Cars seem worth pursuing.
 
Even today, some branch lines are officially "dark territory," but the railroads have rules for operating under these conditions-- the "Staff System" is one example.  British railways used a "Token System," which was very similar.
 
In the 19th Century, there wasn't much a railroader couldn't do if he had a current Timetable, an up-to-date set of Train Orders, and a reliable watch.
 
It is true that many railroad depots were very near hotels, or perhaps even offered hotel accommodations in the same building, but I rather suspect their primary purpose wasn't to accommodate en route travelers (except perhaps at junction points).  They were probably for travelers who had business in that town-- remember, this was the days before Howard Johnson's and Motel 6 along the Interstate.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2012, 11:22pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1726
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #188 on: Jun 3rd, 2012, 10:49pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

(Just one more OT rambling before we get back to Santa Fe B&B . . .)
 
While we're on the topic of rail operations in the days of open platforms, one condition that was a challenge to long-distance, high-speed operations was the fact that, until 1885, we operated on Siderial Time.  There were no Uniform Time Zones.  Each locality determined the time by calculating the sun's angle with a sextant, or perhaps even by a reliable sundial.  This was not a problem for north-south travel, but when traveling eastbound or westbound, your time changed by one minute for each fifteen minutes of longitude (gaining or losing four minutes of time for each degree of longitude).
 
It was the railroads themselves that imposed Standard Time Zones, each one straddling fifteen degrees of longitude (one hour's time) whereby each railroad clock and watch within the Zone would be set to the same minute and second.  This was originally done to improve safety for scheduling meets, but soon the idea spread beyond the railroads, and the rest is history.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


Logged
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1726
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #189 on: Jun 3rd, 2012, 11:12pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Transcon, those cars you bought look even better than I was expecting.  The window spacings on the "Chair Car" are perfect for Sleeping Cars of the period.
 
The 4-6-0 looks excellent, as well.  You may wish to paint over the light-blue boiler, however, and the silver smokebox front.  In photos I've seen, the rims of the drivers were painted white (not silver).  I believe AT&SF practice, even then, was to place the locomotive number on the side of the tender, with a small "SANTA FE" or "A.T.S.F.R.R." just below the cab window.  If you are modeling the Albuquerque-to-San Francisco route, then you might consider lettering your loco for Atlantic & Pacific.  West of Albuquerque, the cars might have said "Atlantic & Pacific" as well-- or, perhaps, "SANTA FE ROUTE." (If you do choose Santa Fe Route., however, be sure to include the little punkt on the end-- they seemed to be fastidious about that.
 
All in all, a truly handsome consist.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2012, 11:15pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3439
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #190 on: Jun 4th, 2012, 7:52am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Norm -
 
Thanks! Good to see your perspective. Chances are, I have some books in my collection which report this at great length.
 
One advantage which came with electric signals. It was more practical to also have the devices at points not immediately  
adjacent a Station. Examples being enroute sidings, somewhat distant from Station sites.
 
.....................Vern....................


Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
Transcon
Historian
Posts: 359
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #191 on: Jun 4th, 2012, 9:05am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

About train operations at night in the 19th century:
I really wonder about how british railways did that. Whenever I see a photo of a british steam locomotive, no matter from what era, they use to have VERY small headlights or no headlights at all. At least I see no chance of how they could see ball signals (if they ever used them) at night with those small lights. So they must have worked with lighted signs right from the beginning on.
 
About my consist: Well, it doesnīt necessarily have to be a Albuquerque-San Francisco run. A Kansas City-Albuquerque works for me as well. Since Iīm a Santa Fe fan, I donīt wanna have Atlantic & Pacific lettering. I will leave the passenger cars as they are.  
Rivarossi once produced a 4-4-0 for the Santa Fe, with 2 different styles of tender lettering. One version had a large "A.T.&S.F.R.R." lettering on the tender, while the other version had a small "A.T.&S.F" lettering on the tender.
Here are the photos so you can compare:
http://67-23-24-96.slicehost.net/dash/universe/catalog_item/MT-0576442/
http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ENGLISH_VERSION/Riva_American_Locos/Riva_American_Eng.htm#American_ATSF_e_UP_
I wonder of this kind of lettering is correct. Indeed, I also donīt remember seeing any photos of Santa Fe locomotives with just the roadname on the tender. In most cases, itīs only the number which is on the tender. Sometimes roadname and number together, but never the roadname alone.
 
By the way: Itīs interesting to see that through train travel appeared hand in hand with closed vestibule cars. So before that, it was neither possible to ride a through train from Chicago to the Pacific Ocean, nor it was possible (at least not for the passengers if they were not allowed) to walk through a train from car to car.


Logged
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3820
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #192 on: Jun 4th, 2012, 1:49pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jun 4th, 2012, 9:05am, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I really wonder about how british railways did that. Whenever I see a photo of a british steam locomotive, no matter from what era, they use to have VERY small headlights or no headlights at all. At least I see no chance of how they could see ball signals (if they ever used them) at night with those small lights. So they must have worked with lighted signs right from the beginning on.

The lights on the front of British locomotives were not headlights at all.  They were marker lights giving the classification of the train by their positioning.  A searh on the subject should give a good bit of detail on how they did it.  I do not think they ever used ball type signals, but semaphores.  Also, they never used written train orders.  The system was called token working where  physical token had to be in the possession of the Driver (they never called them engineeers) as his right to operate between any give pair of stations or signal boxes.


Logged
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4793
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #193 on: Jun 4th, 2012, 6:44pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

IRON HORSES OF THE SANTA FE RAIL has amny photos of Santa Fe engines, including many in the period Transcon is planning to model.
 
An 1879 engine, ten-wheeler Chas. C. Burr, has the name and #78 on cab side and a fairly large A.T.&S.F. Ry.Co, on the tender.
 
1888 ten-wheeler D726 had that on cn, and SANTA FE ROUTE. on tender, with the number in much smaller type just below the top of the tender side.
 
Sometime in the 1890s, the road went to a small A.T.&S.F. on the cab side and large road number on tender side. And by the 1930s, a good sized SANTA FE and road number below on the tender side, still A.T.& S.F. on the cab side below the windows.


Logged
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1726
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #194 on: Jun 5th, 2012, 12:23am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Thank You, Clyde!
 
Though I no longer own this treasured volume, Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail is, in my view, the most reliable and complete record of Santa Fe motive power (pre-1970, at any rate) ever published for a lay audience.  In the light of this information, I retract some of what I wrote a few posts ago.
 
I also did a bit more digging, transcon, and stumbled across something you might find useful.  The Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society ( http://atsfrr.com ) has apparently re-printed a report from the Baldwin Locomotive Works, in about 1906, detailing their relationship with the Santa Fe.  About halfway down the first page of their report is a very fine rendering of a 4-4-0 as it would have appeared in 1880.  Though you are modeling a 4-6-0 from 1887 or so, I think the painting, lettering, and other details are surely very, very similar.  By far the best likeness I've seen so far, at any rate.  Here's the link to the page:
 
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Baldwin/index.htm
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jun 5th, 2012, 12:24am by Norm_Anderson » Logged
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4793
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #195 on: Jun 5th, 2012, 4:47pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Norm, I would be VERY unhappy of anything happened to my copy of that book. I have a Third Printing (of 1983), which has the corrected text (typos corrected) of the 1976 Second Printing. The coverage is as of the 1965 First Printing, and is complete as of that date, including renumberings and dispositons.  
 
It would be really neat if somebody could/would do what Mr. Worley did through 1965 for the period 1965 through the 1995 merger with BN as a Volume Two. And I suppose cover fate of power on hand as of merger though date of preparation. Be some serious job, i fear. And certainly beyond me.


Logged
Transcon
Historian
Posts: 359
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #196 on: Jun 5th, 2012, 8:46pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Sounds like this book is quite a superior source for old Santa Fe locomotive information, and sounds like I should get a copy too. While searching on the internet I discovered that some versions of this book have 479 sheets, while others have 608. Weird...

Logged
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4793
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #197 on: Jun 5th, 2012, 10:20pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Mine has 480 pages, plus 128 pages of diagrams numbered D1-D128. That would be 608 total...
 
It may be that there has been an edition printed without the diagram pages, which would be extremely valuable to anyone modeling Santa Fe power.
 
If you are modeling the Santa Fe (or for that matter - are just interested in the road), you really should have a copy. It is a great book. The diagrams have an immense amount of information about the locomotives pictured - weights, distances between wheel centers, other physiucal dimensions, type valve gear, boiler pressure, etc..  
 
Santa Fe called the 2-6-6-2 Class 3300 Compounds "Prairie Mallets" - and they were among those the Santa Fe tried with flexible boilers.


« Last Edit: Jun 5th, 2012, 10:37pm by ClydeDET » Logged
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1726
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #198 on: Jun 6th, 2012, 1:29am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jun 5th, 2012, 8:46pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Sounds like this book is quite a superior source for old Santa Fe locomotive information, and sounds like I should get a copy too. While searching on the internet I discovered that some versions of this book have 479 sheets, while others have 608. Weird...

 
transcon, this book is essentially an illustrated encyclopedia of every type of locomotive Santa Fe ever owned, from diamond-stack 4-4-0s, to 0-6-0 yard switchers, to the latest EMD and ALCo Diesels (as of the print date).  The book must weigh nearly a kilo.  I undoubtedly received the first edition, for Christmas or my birthday, when I was in my teens in the 1960s.  Back then, the list price was US $50 (an unmarried young man could live on $50 a week at that time).  If you are truly serious about Santa Fe locomotives, this volume is worth whatever price they're asking for it.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3439
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #199 on: Jun 6th, 2012, 9:38am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jun 4th, 2012, 6:44pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...An 1879 engine, ten-wheeler Chas. C. Burr, has the name and #78 on cab side and a fairly large A.T.&S.F. Ry.Co, on the tender.
 
1888 ten-wheeler D726 had that on cn, and SANTA FE ROUTE. on tender, with the number in much smaller type just below the top of the tender side...  

Clyde - All -  
 
The use, by 1888, of styling SANTA FE ROUTE intriguing. Implicit the Railroad evolving into a larger System?  
The phrase possibly used in various promotional publications. Use of "ROUTE" possibly implies through services,  
running SANTA FE rails, and in connection with other partner carriers (which may have also been controlled by  
the Company)?
 
I suppose well documented History volumes have it in print about how services precisely promoted.
 
......................Vern.................


Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint

« Previous topic | Next topic »