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Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
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   Author  Topic: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style  (Read 1791 times)
TAB
Historian
Posts: 1907
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #160 on: May 11th, 2012, 11:48pm »
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Thank you HFM and others who have provided these links to the cars with photos, plans and interior views and even histories what a wonderfilled resource......every link within a link becomes an adventure......and what a wealth of information there is for not only the historians among us but the modelers as well. Today I'm more of a railroad modeler than a train fan as the real railroads have lost much of their variety, at least where I live, so I choose to relive the resplendent age of trains through my models. Topics such as this have the potential, through the efforts of painstaking research, to supply a durth of wonderful information that can't but help to deepen our enjoyment of the rail road hobby at whatever level practiced.....Keep it up HFM....I can't wait to see what comes next.....Tom

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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #161 on: May 12th, 2012, 12:08am »
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Tom:
 
Indeed most appreciative of your kind words.......thank you!
 
Yes, a topic such as this can indeed take on a life all its own; most especially one dealing in bygone passenger operations.
 
As we've seen here, the subject of SF varnish is a quite fascinating one, as can be seen by so many numerous types of cars once used by the railroad.
 
As you might well guess, it does require a good deal of time to "track down" (pun intended!) the many photos, plans, articles, etc., for a subject such as this.
 
Indeed, a labor of love!
 
My thanks, too, to Norm, for sharing with us his near-limitless knowledge of SF passenger operations.
 
My thanks, also, to all who have contributed here...............
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: May 12th, 2012, 12:15am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1724
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #162 on: May 12th, 2012, 9:34am »
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on May 11th, 2012, 7:38am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Norm - All -
 
Enjoyed your account of rides between LAUPT and Barstow.
 
Reflections on a Dome Car? For diehard crazies, the front set of seats let one play "check pilot" and watch the signals all night!  
Given enough coffee, one could watch until dawn. Usually, no one in the Dome area thru the night, other than a crew member or  
two. (In the balance of cosmic forces, it was always unfair there were no Domes running South from Washington!)...
 
Clyde remarked on the rather severe and austere appearance of the Pullman built Domes. Have to agree the Budd design more  
aesthetic. With my own time in on B & O, the Pullmans would grow on you! IIRC, seems to me there was a front panel which  
displayed B&O Logo, Clock and a Speedometer. Period publicity photos can answer the question. (Same photos also support  
the travelers were dressed a bit better than a present day, Big Store clientele claque!)...
 
........................Vern....................

 
Vern, I sure do agree with your enthusiasm for the "check pilot" position.  I, too, loved being upstairs at night, being the third pair of eyes watching the block signals.  You are right that some railroads discouraged passengers from riding in the Domes late at night.  Union Pacific, for example, actually strung a small chain across the base of the stairway from, say, midnight to 6am.  I think the small metal sign hanging from the chain said, "Dome Area Closed," or something like that.  I don't recall any such restrictions with Santa Fe.  Watching night slowly change to day from a Dome seat is one of the finest experiences a railfan can know.
 
B&O's Strata Domes were unique and elegant cars.  They had the flat-glass Pullman Standard look (they were built by PS), but the "profile" was a bit lower than on the Super Chief "Pleasure Domes."  But they had amenities even the Pleasure Dome did not.  The forward bulkhead in the Dome displayed a large (stainless steel?) circular B&O herald, behind which was a radio speaker ("Radio" on passenger trains, in those days, was a technological wonder worth advertising.)  Above the speaker was an "instrument panel" with three circular instruments-- top center (and largest) was a clock; on the lower left was a speedometer, and on the lower right was an altimeter.  Below the clock, and between the other two gauges, there apparently was a compass (not the round, dial type, but the thick edge of a flat wheel that remained stationary while the car pivoted around the curves).
 
B&O also favored nighttime viewing-- on the forward "short end" roof was a battery of floodlights that illuminated the passing countryside at night.  (Wonder how folks living trackside felt about that?? )  Thanks to Jerry's superb website, http://passcarphotos.info , here's a link to one of these cars (post- B&O/C&O merger):
 
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=556636
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: May 12th, 2012, 5:01pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3432
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #163 on: May 12th, 2012, 10:05am »
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NORM -
 
Many Thanks for added comment and detail of the B & O Domes. In the photo of 5551, it captures the later years, when firm became aligned with C & O.
 
B & O long had a somewhat relaxed and gracious ambiance of a "Southern" line. IIRC, the line had no problems with riders being in the Domes at any time.  
Usually, there was at least one crew member in one of the seats near the stairs.
 
In practice, the B & O Dome areas were closed on the segment between Washington, and a point a bit East of Silver Spring, MD. It held the P R R stance  
there should be no occupancy when under that line's wires. Good, common sense caution.
 
B & O Strata Dome Cars? A feature of the lower profile in that the cars could clear the Train Sheds at Jersey City, NJ. The operations East of Washington  
to Jersey City discontinued (IIRC) about 1954, though...
 
.........................Vern......................


« Last Edit: May 12th, 2012, 10:11am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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TAB
Historian
Posts: 1907
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #164 on: May 12th, 2012, 3:04pm »
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.....Talk about a Santa Fe bed and breakfast....wow!.....here it is all in one place as Santa Fe 400. I'm glad I persevered (....had to use Internet Explorer instead of Firefox) and finally was able to open the link that contained the plan below. I've included it here in case others had a similar difficulty...the railroad brass hats certainly had it all...and in such a small space.
 
" target="_blank">
 
In addition, a model of this diminutive division superintendent's car will make a perfect addition to my layout, whose curves are too sharp for even the shortest commercial model with any real prototype.
 
This topic has also rekindled my memories of of a trip across country with my parents and a cousin in the summer of 1962...Chicago to Los Angeles with that side trip to the Grand Canyon as was mentioned here earlier.
 
It seemed as if we never had more than two meals in the same dining car before it was switched out. I for one, would be interested in learning more about that operation on the Santa Fe....as if meal time wasn't enough of a treat, one could also look forward to a change of decor along with a different menu...what great fun it was and thanks contributors and certainly HFM for starting this nostalgic, entertaining and informational topic.....Tom


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3432
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #165 on: May 12th, 2012, 4:50pm »
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TOM -
 
ATSF 400? Even with some "Zoom" viewing, couldn't catch the OAL DIM for the Car.
 
Here, notably and among other things: Car on four wheel trucks, which tells us about its Gross Weight.
 
And, here compare with the splendid CNJ Car you recently completed: The Kitchen on the #400  
where it was to be expected.
 
The Railroad surely took care of its management!
 
........................Vern...................


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ClydeDET
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Posts: 4780
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #166 on: May 12th, 2012, 6:16pm »
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on May 12th, 2012, 4:50pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
TOM -
 
ATSF 400? Even with some "Zoom" viewing, couldn't catch the OAL DIM for the Car.
 
Here, notably and among other things: Car on four wheel trucks, which tells us about its Gross Weight.
 
And, here compare with the splendid CNJ Car you recently completed: The Kitchen on the #400  
where it was to be expected.
 
The Railroad surely took care of its management!
 
........................Vern...................

 
Walthers used to have a model (kit - the old wood floor, stamped metal sides, molded plastic roof) of that car. i got one years ago and built it up. Kit was less trucks, so I got a set of 4-wheel passenger trucks of suitable vintage and it is now ready to run. Those were for Division Superintendents, kings in their own domain, but fairly low on the totem pole for brass hats. Also got a Walthers underbody detail and interior kit for it. Mine is no contest winner, but it isn't a bad job on a rather neat car. They are 65' long, not sure of weight.


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Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1724
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #167 on: May 12th, 2012, 9:12pm »
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on May 12th, 2012, 3:04pm, TAB wrote:       (Click here for original message)
.....Talk about a Santa Fe bed and breakfast....wow!.....here it is all in one place as Santa Fe 400. I'm glad I persevered (....had to use Internet Explorer instead of Firefox) and finally was able to open the link that contained the plan below. I've included it here in case others had a similar difficulty...the railroad brass hats certainly had it all...and in such a small space.
 
 
This topic has also rekindled my memories of of a trip across country with my parents and a cousin in the summer of 1962...Chicago to Los Angeles with that side trip to the Grand Canyon as was mentioned here earlier.
 
It seemed as if we never had more than two meals in the same dining car before it was switched out. I for one, would be interested in learning more about that operation on the Santa Fe....as if meal time wasn't enough of a treat, one could also look forward to a change of decor along with a different menu...what great fun it was and thanks contributors and certainly HFM for starting this nostalgic, entertaining and informational topic.....Tom

 
 
Tom, and others . . .
 
That self-contained Business Car (truly the "bizjet" of 100 years ago) triggered a memory of reading about the earliest long-distance Sleepers, called "Hotel Cars."  This was in the late 19th Century, in the days of open platforms, wood-burning stoves, and kerosene lamps.  On cross-continent trains like the precursors of the Overland Limited, each Sleeper was almost a self-contained hotel on wheels, with a small "galley" at one end of the car.  Not sure if the Porter was expected to also act as Chef . . .
 
 
No discussion of "Santa Fe Bed & Breakfast" would be complete without acknowledging The Fred Harvey Company.  They not only contracted to operate Santa Fe's dining cars, but they also were responsible for an entire archipelago of hotels and restaurants, strung, Aleutian-like, across the West and Southwest, from Chicago to Texas to San Diego.
 
Aboard the steamcars, it was a true symbiotic relationship-- Santa Fe owned and maintained the Dining Cars themselves, while Fred Harvey operated the "restaurant" within them, handling everything from food purchases to staffing.  I'm not even sure how much of a "cut" the railroad got from the operation-- perhaps none at all, except that the Harvey reputation for excellence undoubtedly polished Santa Fe's reputation, as well, and helped draw more ticket-buying repeat business to Santa Fe's trains.
 
There is a website devoted to the Harvey Company's operations.  Though it hasn't been updated for a couple of years, there is still a lot of interesting stuff there . . .
 
http://www.harveyhouses.net
 
 
Tom, to address your thoughts about "playing musical Diners" across the country, I think that Dining Cars were such an overhead-laden operation (a full-service Diner required a crew of eleven, including cooks, waiters, and Maitre d' ), that there just weren't enough cars to keep a Diner on every train from endpoint to endpoint.  On a train like the Grand Canyon, which switched out Sleepers and Chair Cars at several locations en route, adding or dropping a Diner as well wouldn't have been that much more work, and probably was a better allocation of resources than keeping the car (and crew) along for the ride overnight, when the Diner wouldn't be open for business anyway.  The Grand Canyon made Meal Stops at Barstow in each direction, even into the late '60s.  In the 1930s, some secondary long-distance trains still made a good many meal stops during their journey-- over on the "Fallen Flags/Santa Fe" board, there is a thread called "Take a Ride on the Navajo," a narrative of an "imagined" cross-country trip on this secondary train in 1937, that details how this operation would have played out.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: May 12th, 2012, 9:21pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Transcon
Historian
Posts: 359
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #168 on: May 29th, 2012, 9:15pm »
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Hey Norm,
can you help me out with a little more information?
Currently I´m putting together a HO scale passenger train of the Santa Fe. All the 6 cars of my consist are four-wheel-truck cars with open platforms, made by Roundhouse. My train features a RPO, a baggage, 3 coaches and a business car, and it shall be pulled by an Mantua/Tyco 4-4-0 or 4-6-0 engine.  
My question is: is such a 6 car consist prototypical for the time before 1887?
As far as I know Santa Fe introduced 6-wheel-truck closed vestibule Pullman Palace cars for their flagship trains in 1887, so my train with open platform cars should be pre 1887.
What I also would like to know is: what year exactly did the Santa Fe introduce dining cars on their top trains? When did the custom of stopping for meal breaks end for their flagship trains? Since I don´t have a dining car on my train, this information is interesting for me to know.
As far for the coaches, I´m planning to turn at least 1 or 2 of them into sleeping cars, because I want to have a Chicago-Los Angeles long distance premier train.
My problem is, that I don´t know any Santa Fe name train of that era. But I would love my train to be a name train.  
The oldest Santa Fe name train that I know is the California Limited introduced in 1892, but I won´t name my train like that since it is no Palace car train but open platform car train.
 
Regards
Transcon


« Last Edit: May 29th, 2012, 9:21pm by Transcon » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3432
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #169 on: May 30th, 2012, 7:07am »
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Transcon -  
 
I'll watch this one with interest. Perhaps Norm has good sources which come to mind. Years back (dates in 1960 - 1970 Era),  
some excellent books, likely of Howell-North (now Signature Press) imprimatur, recalling building of SANTA FE.
 
The "time window" of post Civil War into 1887 had a great deal of events, all in same years. Recall, UP - CP "Overland" Line not  
complete until 1869. The story of the putting together of the ATSF quite tumultous. It had much difficulty in getting through a highly  
contested pass in Colorado.
 
In those years, it had its own disputes of what became ESPEE. Example, date doesn't come to mind when ATSF reached Needles, CA.  
Same way with dates West of Needles, and the direct San Diego line enters into this, too. Can't recall year wherein ATSF held itself out  
as a through Midwest (KCY and Topeka) - Southern California direct route.
 
............................Vern......................


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #170 on: May 30th, 2012, 10:05am »
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All:
 
See following:
 
http://www.ask.com/wiki/California_Limited
 
According to this, the train was first of Santa Fe's trains to offer Fred Harvey meal service (1892)
 
Hope this of some help.....
 
"H.F.M."


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Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1724
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #171 on: May 30th, 2012, 10:27am »
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on May 29th, 2012, 9:15pm, Transcon wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Hey Norm,
can you help me out with a little more information?
Currently I´m putting together a HO scale passenger train of the Santa Fe. All the 6 cars of my consist are four-wheel-truck cars with open platforms, made by Roundhouse. My train features a RPO, a baggage, 3 coaches and a business car, and it shall be pulled by an Mantua/Tyco 4-4-0 or 4-6-0 engine.  
My question is: is such a 6 car consist prototypical for the time before 1887?
As far as I know Santa Fe introduced 6-wheel-truck closed vestibule Pullman Palace cars for their flagship trains in 1887, so my train with open platform cars should be pre 1887.
What I also would like to know is: what year exactly did the Santa Fe introduce dining cars on their top trains? When did the custom of stopping for meal breaks end for their flagship trains? Since I don´t have a dining car on my train, this information is interesting for me to know.
As far for the coaches, I´m planning to turn at least 1 or 2 of them into sleeping cars, because I want to have a Chicago-Los Angeles long distance premier train.
My problem is, that I don´t know any Santa Fe name train of that era. But I would love my train to be a name train.  
The oldest Santa Fe name train that I know is the California Limited introduced in 1892, but I won´t name my train like that since it is no Palace car train but open platform car train.
 
Regards
Transcon

 
Hi, transcon,
 
Wow, I think my reputation has reached the point where I can't live up to it . . .  I'll share some thoughts I have (and have spent a little bit of time doing online research), but I have very little confidence in my own infallibility here.
 
Santa Fe's connection between Kansas City and Chicago wasn't complete until around 1885, I believe.  Likewise, the connection into San Diego wasn't complete until November 1885.  The California Limited of 1892 was the first through passenger train service from Chicago to Los Angeles.
 
I think we have underestimated the truly revolutionary nature of the invention of the Vestibule.  This invention made it possible, for the first time, to essentially treat the entire train as one, single, articulated vehicle, with free and easy access from car to car.  In the days of open-platform cars, it was technically feasible to move acrobatically from car to car at speed, but train crew members were probably the only ones who did this regularly.  I doubt that the general public indulged in the practice very much, and may have been actively discouraged from doing so by the crew.
 
The Vestibule also made Dining Cars a realistic concept.  My research hints that the first through Dining Car service on Santa Fe was aboard the California Limited of 1892.  This means that your open-platform consist would be entirely prototypical without a Diner.
 
Of the locomotives you have listed, the 4-6-0 would be more typical than the 4-4-0 (but 4-4-0s were still used occasionally at that time, especially on level terrain).  Freight trains were handled in mountainous territory by 2-8-0 "Consolidation" types.
 
Regarding the set of Roundhouse cars-- I went to Roundhouse's website, and saw the car sets they offer.  The "50' Overland" cars would be more prototypical in appearance than the "60' Arch Roof" cars.   The Business Car probably would be off-limits to the passengers.
 
As I said a moment go, prior to 1892 it was not possible to travel from Chicago to Los Angeles without changing trains.  With much gratitude to my friend Harry Foster Malone, Esq., I am reposting here a link that he discovered in his own research and shared with us.  Based on this link (from 1884), I calculate that a passenger in 1887 would have had to take a train from Chicago to Kansas City; then, a second train from Kansas City to Albuquerque; then, a third train from Albuquerque to Barstow (this train would itself continue on to San Francisco); and, finally, a fourth train from Barstow to Los Angeles.  Total elapsed time would have been five or six days (maybe . . . maybe . . . four days, if every connection were made flawlessly).
 
If you wish to give your passenger train a name, the most likely candidate would be Atlantic Express (eastbound), or Pacific Express (westbound).  This was actually a fairly common appellation at the time, and was used by several railroads.
 
One final thought-- I'm pretty sure that by 1887, Santa Fe's passenger cars weren't painted "Old West Yellow" anymore.  I can't confirm this, but I also can't get rid of the suspicion that their late 19th Century passenger equipment was painted a deep wine red, almost like Pennsy's Tuscan Red, or Canadian Pacific's heavyweight red fleet.  (But I could be mistaken about this).
 
 
Here are the links:
 
With thanks to "Mr. Malone":  http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/1441
 
And, here are a couple of photos of actual Santa Fe passenger trains from the period you wish to model:
 
http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/61669
 
http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/61699
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: May 30th, 2012, 10:55am by Norm_Anderson » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #172 on: May 30th, 2012, 10:39am »
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Norm:
 
Am most grateful for your kind words; all I can do is try!
 
I have long ago told you that my personal moniker for you is "Mr. Santa Fe"........I must be totally honest, and state here and now that your knowledge of Santa Fe passenger operations is light-years beyond encyclopedic.
 
You would do railfans and historians alike a tremendous favor by doing a book on Santa Fe passenger trains......without a doubt, it would be a fine and thorough work, indeed.  
 
Look for me to be first in line at the book signing!
 
Regards,  
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: May 30th, 2012, 10:42am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3432
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #173 on: May 30th, 2012, 11:01am »
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NORM - HFM -
 
MANY THANKS! There were a few things nagging at me, when writing my earlier reply. I concur with thinking here.  
That is, a Chicago - Southern California venture involved travel over various lines. Presumably, a rider would stop for  
the night at a preferred Hotel and Restaurant, to continue the trek in the next morning? It doesn't make much of a  
case for Sleeping Cars, does it?
 
Somewhere around here I have the superlative, old HOWELL-NORTH title which (ambitiously) dealt with entire History  
of ATSF. Also, the earlier routings may have been over St. Joseph, MO, not the more obvious, St. Louis. Gotta' find  
that old book, but a bit short on time for the research...
 
Notes: The old route of Chicago - Kansas City may have been over lines of venerable, CHICAGO & ALTON.  
A very old railroad, with much historical precedent.
 
On a social theme? When did the Native American People realize the value of a station side site at Albuquerque,  
in the sales of Blankets, Native Jewelry and (said real?) Rolex Watches?
 
.......................Vern....................


« Last Edit: May 30th, 2012, 11:11am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #174 on: May 30th, 2012, 11:18am »
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Vern/Norm/All:
 
From "SANTA FE RAILWAY", by Steve Glischinski......
 
".......in 1888 the Santa Fe began running dining cars for the first time, and, in 1893, Fred Harvey recieved a formal contract from the railroad to manage their operations as well......"
 
"H.F.M."


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HwyHaulier
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #175 on: May 30th, 2012, 11:45am »
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on May 30th, 2012, 11:18am, HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Vern/Norm/All:
 
From "SANTA FE RAILWAY", by Steve Glischinski......
 
".......in 1888 the Santa Fe began running dining cars for the first time, and, in 1893, Fred Harvey recieved a formal contract from the railroad to manage their operations as well......"
 
"H.F.M."

HFM -
 
Vitally, and if you have the facts handy: Presumably, FRED HARVEY had a deal in at least one of the enroute Hotel Restaurants.  
First known date? It the springboard for all subsequent events...
 
......................Vern.................


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #176 on: May 30th, 2012, 12:10pm »
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Vern.....
 
From the aformentioned book:
 
"........in 1875, Fred Harvey entered into a partnership to operate restaurants along the Kansas Pacific (now part of the UP) line at Wallace, Kansas, at Hugo, Colorado, but the partnership soon broke up. Convinced he had a good idea, Harvey first approached the Burlington, but it wasn't interested in getting into the restaurant business. Harvey then sought out SF superintendent Charles F. Morse, with the idea of letting him operate one of the railroad's lunchrooms. The SF decided to give him a try......."
 
".......In 1876, he took over operation of the SF's Topeka lunchroom. Under an agreemnent that lasted until the end, SF supplied the buildings, and the coal, water, and ice used in them, to Harvey at no added cost. It also provided transportation to Harvey personell and materials, such as furnishings and food......"
 
"........Harvey's first venture into hotels was at Florence, Kansas, where, in 1878, he purchased a restaurant and hotel on railroad property. He sold the buildings back to the SF, then contacted with the railroad to operate the restaurant, and provide hotel rooms for employees. An empire was born......"
 
"H.F.M."


« Last Edit: May 30th, 2012, 12:11pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
Former Member
Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #177 on: May 30th, 2012, 3:01pm »
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Also:
 
"...........when E.P. Ripley assumed presidency of the Santa Fe, he was a strong Harvey backer, and a new contract was drawn up, which combined the dining cars, restaurants, and hotels into one operation, based on a profit-sharing system......."
 
"H.F.M."


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HARRY FOSTER MALONE ESQ
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #178 on: May 30th, 2012, 3:28pm »
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Also of interest......
 
http://www.harveyhouses.net/


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ClydeDET
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Re: Bed 'n Breakfast AT&SF-style
 
« Reply #179 on: May 30th, 2012, 6:10pm »
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The Xanterra operation is a Harvey successor (it is Amfac renamed, an Amfac bought the Harvey operation) - and mentions it in some of its material. At the Grand Canyon, it operates the Grand Canyon Railroad, the Fra Marcos Hotel at Williams and the lodgings and food service at the Canyon (including El Tovar, Bright Angel and Maswiki).

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