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Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
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   Author  Topic: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday  (Read 1078 times)
HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3433
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #120 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 10:53am »
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Alan - All -  
 
Noted yours at Reply #129. By the time I noted your query, we have some solid data and comment in from Clyde and George.  
Many and profuse Thanks from me for the kind assist!
 
For those just tuned in (and that includes well intended, albeit ignorant, modern day planners). Used to be that decades back,  
(here, data for 1934), Railroads and GREYHOUND (note this doesn't include TRAILWAYS) sold tickets to 1.1 B (!) riders. Today,  
the figure is 50 - 60 MM! (The NEC interurban, and bus Atlantic City runs, for the most part.)
 
Years back, the trains went everywhere! One could walk up to the counter, and get a ticket, with a sleeper room or berth,  
between some truly minor pairs of points! The equipment had to be fit for the tasks. (SIGH! We'll never replicate this, ever again!)
 
..............................Vern........................


« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2012, 10:54am by HwyHaulier » Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #121 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 11:23am »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 10:37am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

SM - All -  
 
"Spotting And Caption Violation! Ten Yards!" here. Clearly a "day coach" conversion of an older car. Per Official Register entries,  
S R S reported it in the class. (Per a MAR 1962 entry, this one a bit of a mystery, and received 3659 number post 1962.)
 
In "reading" this photo, it is a SOUTHERN RR SYSTEM Car, and part of inventory of its C N O & T P leased line. Clearly,  
NOT a PULLMAN...
 
........................Vern......................

 
Vern.......
 
To be honest, I, too, had misgivings on the caption, but, then again, I thought they knew more than I did!<G>
 
Another "mini mystery", here?
 
Paging the honorable Charlie Chan!<G>
 
"SM"


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #122 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 11:31am »
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C&O dome #20, 1981.....
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/co/co-d0020aga.jpg


« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2012, 11:32am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #123 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 11:42am »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 11:23am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Vern.......
 
To be honest, I, too, had misgivings on the caption, but, then again, I thought they knew more than I did!<G>
 
Another "mini mystery", here?
 
Paging the honorable Charlie Chan!<G>
 
"SM"

SM -
 
How you say? Modern day caption writers often times default to a, "...make it up as you go along..." mode!  
Take any and all 'Net declarations as suspect!
 
Surely, you wouldn't, in this instance, mess with an "Old Reb'" with S R S experience, where we didn't much  
abide Yankees!
 
And, no, don't assume the caption writer may know more than you do! Ain't so, much of the time!
 
..........................Vern.................


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #124 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 11:53am »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 11:31am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
C&O dome #20, 1981.....
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/co/co-d0020aga.jpg

SM -
 
BAH! Come on, Buckaroo! You have been reading "tea leaves" long enough to conclude: It ain't a C & O Car!  
Likely began as U P RR, or possibly WAB...
 
Six wheel trucks? Yes, it a heavy car...
 
........................Vern......................


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #125 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 11:56am »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 11:53am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

SM -
 
BAH! Come on, Buckaroo! You have been reading "tea leaves" long enough to conclude: It ain't a C & O Car!  
Likely began as U P RR, or possibly WAB...
 
Six wheel trucks? Yes, it a heavy car...
 
........................Vern......................

 
Vern.....
 
Ah, come on, pal. gimme a break here!
 
I only relay what the CAPTION states...what I THINK might be something entirely different!<G>
 
"SM"


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #126 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 12:04pm »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 11:56am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Vern.....
 
Ah, come on, pal. gimme a break here!
 
I only relay what the CAPTION states...what I THINK might be something entirely different!<G>
 
"SM"

SM -
 
NOPE! Sorry! My Rules! No Court of Appeal here! Should you have serious doubts about accuracy of a "Net item, SAY SO!  
(Just try for a fact based backup of rationale! There is endless junk on the 'Net!)  
 
Heh! Heh! Recall the time we tried to explain to, "Clueless In Columbus" how PULLMAN Car Pools worked? Real knee slapper!
 
..........................Vern.............................


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #127 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 12:30pm »
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PRR's "UNION LEAGUE CLUB"; clearly, this was one grand-looking car in its prime!
 
By the time of this photo, this once-proud vehicle had obviously spent years in MOW service......
 
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=879005


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #128 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 1:45pm »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 12:30pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
PRR's "UNION LEAGUE CLUB"; clearly, this was one grand-looking car in its prime!
 
By the time of this photo, this once-proud vehicle had obviously spent years in MOW service......
 
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=879005

SM -
 
This earlier "UNION LEAGUE CLUB" because? Source? It does very much resemble an earlier  
"Florida Pool" or "Trans Con - West" kind of car. Supporting, known PULLMAN reports? Intuited  
feel? Some sort of 3br/ 2c/ Buffet (Bar) - Lounge - Solarium Car.
 
P R R #7012 presents the dilemma. A "---CLUB" often seen as P R R PARLOR Car...
 
........................Vern.......................


« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2012, 2:04pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

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George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3803
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #129 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 2:20pm »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 10:28am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
George - All -  
 
Many Thanks! Good you were "tuned in" and provided explanatory support.
 
See Reply #133, with link to a discussion on TRAINS. We have guys all over the map. An assortment of rookies in there  
who just can't seem to get it that: The PULLMAN CARS something of an "all purpose, run anywhere" design. Today's  
heavily laden coal cars, in very specific and defined use, and on four wheel trucks are interesting, but besides the point  
pieces of data.
 
Or: Do these guys even think that, decades back, PULLMAN cars ran branches which were hardly to standards of heavy  
traffic main lines? For those that don't "get it", then they won't appreciate the problems. For instance, the Mighty PENN  
was not all rail at 151 lb. cross section!
 
With line railroad equipment? It is a polite custom to build it so that it does not wreck the railroad!
 
............................Vern.........................

Yeah, and verily.  In fact, some pullman lines would cover the whole range in a single run.  Consider such things as the through sleepers from New York City to some Southern points (both in geography and railway system), like say Augusta, Georgia:  You would leave New York on the electrified, cab signaled, four track mainline riding on rails of 131 to 152 lb/yd, go to Southern at Washington DC, well, a few miles south after running on WTC, PRR, and RF&P rails for a few miles behind Southern power before getting to Southern rails, on its double track main with block signals, going south out of Charlotte, and then to the branch into Augusta controlled by timetable and train orders, and probably having 80 to 90 lb/yd rail.  Maybe even less.  I have seen 70 lb/yd rail in a Southern branch near B'ham.  OK, that was 1968.
 
There were lots of miles run on 80 to 90 lb/yd rail, for sure, and probably a lot of miles run on lighter rails.  There was, and is. also the bridge capacity issue.  Although a lot of the lightest capacity ones are gone or have been strengthened, there are still a lot of bridges out there with 18 something construction dates.  
 
The common standard for many years was the 50 ton capacity car, which would have a gross weight of around 140,000 to 160,000 pounds per car, giving 35,000 to 40,000 pounds per axle.  
 
The 286,000 pounds on four axles that is the target line capacity today would have been looked on as an impossibility at the time these 80 tons on six axle passenger cars were being built.  For that matter, in the track capacity theories used in large chunks of the world today, the 286,000 pound car is still considered an impossibility.


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George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3803
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #130 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 2:35pm »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 12:04pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

SM -
 
NOPE! Sorry! My Rules! No Court of Appeal here! Should you have serious doubts about accuracy of a "Net item, SAY SO!  
(Just try for a fact based backup of rationale! There is endless junk on the 'Net!)  
 
Heh! Heh! Recall the time we tried to explain to, "Clueless In Columbus" how PULLMAN Car Pools worked? Real knee slapper!
 
..........................Vern.............................

It is not just the "Net" that has errors.  Respectable technical publications commit them also.  In a discussion on Belden Tunnel in New York on here a few years ago I quoted a publication on the installation and removal of doors on the tunnel.  Then a person who was also part of the discussion posted a picture of himself as a kid standing next to the open tunnel door that was taken during the period that the doors were supposedly not there.  
 
The American Society of Civil Engineers has in their brief on the Frisco Bridge at Memphis an incorrect number for the clear distances between railings.  
 
If you can't get it from someone who is both reliable and was there, it could well be incorrect.  
 
If there are errors in information that is measurable and subject to checking, then what do you think about information that is propounded as absolutely positively certain that is neither measurable nor subject to checking?  Likewise, extrapolation of data to prove conclusions the writer wants to prove should be greeted with skepticism.


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #131 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 3:16pm »
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"LAKE PEARL" (SOUTHERN)..........
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou-s2422goa.jpg


« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2012, 3:19pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #132 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 3:28pm »
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George -  
 
OMG! And Many Thanks! The trouble being: These kids, easily dolts, morons, ignorant, or however braindead,  
actually get paid to consult on proposed new rail projects. The Lord loves them, too. I just wish they didn't think  
they are experts! (There are promised payoffs in being humble!)...
 
I still get laughs about our discussion of you trying to teach some of these characters: Why it is a nice idea to  
have wider center to center spreads on mainline curves, so's the cars don't bang into each other! (Much to the  
chagrin of the Almighty Home Office. The result paperwork is a pain, too!)
 
.........................Vern.....................
 


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #133 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 3:37pm »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 3:16pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
"LAKE PEARL" (SOUTHERN)..........
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sou-s2422goa.jpg

SM -
 
"Extra Credit Homework" reveals LAKE PEARL ran on SRS sub, C N O & T P, in era up to end of PULLMAN involvement.  
Car Number 2422 post the PULLMAN Era, and Car directly owned by SRS. Looks to me like a 10s/1br/2c? config.?
 
.........................Vern...................


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photoman475
Historian
Posts: 870
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #134 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 8:27pm »
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Gosh Vern, are you saying the young 'uns today, once minted with their check the box on the advising form college diplomas, may not know it all?  Oh, the horror of what you suggest!!
 
We have a guy like that at work.  While he does not have a college degree-and there is no shame in that-he does feel that because of his truck driving experience, he is all knowledgeable on all things automotive.  Hey, he has a CDL!
Now, if we could just get him to understand that the world's problems are not going to be solved by Honda VTEC engines.....much less everyone's automotive problems....
 
I suppose there's nothing like reading ICC accident reports to find out where mistakes were made and rules were formulated and where if some common sense had existed, perhaps there would be fewer problems.  I'd suggest they could be required reading before taking on consulting contracts.
 
Speaking of know-it-alls, this isn't the place to get into what happened at my work when the programmers forgot to write in leap year into the programming for this year....
 
Alan


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #135 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 8:43pm »
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Alan -  
 
I think the line in "AIRPLANE" by Lloyd Bridges? "Looks like I picked the wrong day to discuss program glitches!"
 
I digress. I have been thinking thru a Motor Cargo line. Yes, CDL credentials would be nice, but I think I want ex USMC types.  
I run a tight ship! At this point, I am as old as Moses! I can always do the white hair and white beard! At this point, I could be  
the meanest V.P. in the Valley! It is for their own good! No one ever said it is an easy business!
 
Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9s25OUdspE&NR=1&feature=fvwp
 
For those ISO soft, warm and fuzzy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzEWVrNqaS0&feature=related
 
.............................Vern.........................


« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2012, 8:56pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

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Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1724
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #136 on: Apr 2nd, 2012, 12:37am »
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on Mar 30th, 2012, 9:55am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
All:
 
Only info given for this 1970 view is that we are seeing #558, a slab-side dome/coach......
 
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2584231

 
SM - Vern - All,
 
I realize we're now about three pages removed from this photo, but Vern, you are right on the money with your guess that this train is en route to places northwest.  The photo caption reads BN #25-31-9 WB or some such, and was taken on December 29, 1970.  Here's what can be deduced:
 
This is a Burlington Northern passenger train.  Train 25 is the westbound North Coast Limited; Train 31 is the westbound Empire Builder; and Train 9 is the westbound Afternoon Zephyr.  These three trains are running combined between Chicago and the Twin Cities.
 
The CB&Q reporting marks on an "NP" car reflect the fact that the North Coast Limited (like the Empire Builder, or the California Zephyr), was a joint effort among several railroads.  The participating roads purchased "their fair share" of the equipment pool for these trains, based on a pro-rated formula of mileage and expected revenue.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1724
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #137 on: Apr 2nd, 2012, 12:42am »
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on Mar 30th, 2012, 1:14pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
NP Slumbercoach "LOCH NESS"......
 
http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1947225

 
Okay, now THAT's funny ! ! !
 
A Slumbercoach named Loch Ness ? ?
 
 
Pleasant dreams . . .
 
Norm


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Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1724
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #138 on: Apr 2nd, 2012, 12:59am »
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on Apr 1st, 2012, 11:31am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
C&O dome #20, 1981.....
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/co/co-d0020aga.jpg

 
SM,
 
No "piling on" intended here (honest!).  But this interesting photo intersects with the discussions about Internet caption accuracy, and the discussion about six-wheel trucks on "lightweight" equipment.
 
The "C&O" Dome in question was built by Pullman in 1950 or so for the Milwaukee Road.  These "Super Domes" were the first full-length Domes built.  As George has pointed out, these cars, like the AT&SF full-length "Big Domes" and GN full-length "Great Domes," rode on six-wheel trucks due to their excess weight (the HVAC necessary to keep things cool under all that glass, I'd wager).  Other :lightweights" requiring six-wheel trucks were the AT&SF's Hi-Level Diners for the El Capitan streamliner.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #139 on: Apr 2nd, 2012, 1:34am »
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Norm......
 
It never ceases to amaze me to see just how "in depth" discussions like this can get, especially regarding vintage passenger equipment.
 
Once again, your input and data are greatly appreciated.....
 
"SM"


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