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Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
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   Author  Topic: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday  (Read 1045 times)
photoman475
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Posts: 870
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #100 on: Mar 30th, 2012, 9:37pm »
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Concerning post 100:
 
Did anyone else catch the ACI label on the car?
 
An interesting twist with these photos.


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #101 on: Mar 30th, 2012, 11:14pm »
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Undated photo of NP coach #502 (appears that this car MIGHT be a rebuilt heavyweight).....
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/np/np-co502bca.jpg


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3432
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #102 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 10:16am »
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on Mar 30th, 2012, 11:14pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Undated photo of NP coach #502 (appears that this car MIGHT be a rebuilt heavyweight).....
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/np/np-co502bca.jpg  

SM -
 
Doubtful. Note this car on four wheel trucks, implies "lightweight". As a blanket "rule of thumb" for it, the "rebuild"  
types - in so many cases - from a starting point of PULLMAN 12s/1dr cars, which had become excess. Note Clyde's  
account earlier here. Numerous railroads deployed the "rebuild" Cars...
 
A good N P site may provide detail on its Car 502..
 
..........................Vern......................


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #103 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 10:55am »
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"NORTHERN PACIFIC TOURIST PULLMAN (heavyweight) CAR" No. 3129 at Denver, 1950.....
 
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/57908


« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2012, 10:57am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3432
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #104 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 10:59am »
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SM - All -  
 
Yours at #110 and #111. The second site is a superb source of the original "source cars" for the later modernization and rebuild of some.
 
On the "rebuild" projects, which a number of lines did very well in own Shops, the "facts of the case" and the engineering mandated  
continued use of six wheel trucks. A result, in numerous cases, deluxe coaches with a quite astonishing and smooth ride.
 
A C L did its own group (at either Rocky Mount or Wilson, NC - it was in TRAINS). The Cars would get into New York, on the through  
trains to and from the South. These were very, very good! To this day, IMHO, these possibly the best riding Cars ever out on the P R R  
"NEC" Main. (Much, much better than later, "AMCAR" rolling stock!)
 
.........................Vern.....................


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3432
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #105 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 11:05am »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 10:55am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
"NORTHERN PACIFIC TOURIST PULLMAN (heavyweight) CAR" No. 3129 at Denver, 1950.....
 
http://digital.denverlibrary.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/57908

SM -
 
OK. See site at your Reply #111. We may deduce this a PULLMAN - 14s. The actual car name lost in vague film grain.  
Names would be in an Official Register...
 
.........................Vern.....................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #106 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 3:18pm »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 10:33am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Vern......
 
As always, appreciate your comments.
 
So, you are saying that, had this car originally been a heavyweight, it would be sporting six-wheel trucks?
 
In looking at vintage photos, I've come to associate the six-wheel trucks with the (unrebuilt) heavyweights, such as Pullmans and diners.
 
As I'd mentioned to Clyde earlier, the E-L was one of those roads that utililed rebuilt, older equipment.
 
Diners on PHOEBE SNOW, as an example, were of this type, at least during the E-L years.......
 
"SM"

 
MOST (there are ALWAYS exceptions and somebody will come up with one of yu say "always" or "Every example")  heavyweights of the all-steel era had three axle trucks. Example: The Santa Fe short (60 foot? something like that) superintendent's office cars mostly had four wheel trucks, but - sixty feet, short, light, eh? And when rebuilt to "mimic" modern lightweights so they could be used on new trains without mkng things look cobbled together, they were still heavy and still had the old three axle trucks in the interest of better ride and lower axle-loading.
 
SOME "lightweights" were built with three-axle trucks.  I seem to recall a few diners, maybe some of the "Big Domes". Have to hunt the pictures to be sure of that. Santa Fe Hi-level diners were heavy and had six-wheel trucks, for sure.
 
But as GENERAL rule, passenger equipment with four-wheel trucks will be light-weight cars, built as such, while three-axle trucks on a streamlined car suggests a rebuilt , modernized heavy-weight.
 


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3432
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #107 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 3:57pm »
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Clyde - SM - All -
 
OK! All right! All right! On this one, I would like to have some observations from Lodge Bro. George H....
 
In the event, IIRC & FWIW, my own "self taught" engineering. Should one review the seemingly endless PULLMAN work,  
there appeared to be numerous established standards. With a "stock" PULLMAN, apparently it was trying to hold to axle  
weights of N/E 30,000 lbs. Compare with weights of the classic products.
 
It opens the door, of course, on certain "article of the faith" religious issues. Keep in mind 30,000 lb. axle weight cars
capable of traveling most anywhere. A good and useful feature!
 
So, yes, into the "lightweight" era, there were examples of cars on six axles! Rare, but it happened. And, ah! "Commute  
Cars"? A throwaway line? Near all were purpose built to known operating environs...
 
.............................Vern........................


« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2012, 4:04pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #108 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 4:01pm »
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Read of the Pullmans assigned to the long-forgotten "REXALL" special of 1936......
 
http://www.themetrains.com/rexall-train-main.htm


« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2012, 4:05pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3432
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #109 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 4:22pm »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 3:53pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Also of some interest......
 
http://www.pullmanproject.com/Prewar.htm

SM -
 
Writer, Thomas Madden, takes positions here which may be tenuous. Examples: I'd like to see detail, but it is a reach to assume  
preponderance of PULLMAN Cars, Heavyweights, were in unassigned pool. More, with the Lightweight classes, see the group of  
four "IMPERIAL" which became "GOLDEN". Plain and simple, it implies first use on P R R(?), later to ESPEE - ROCK ISLAND  
service. Presumably, the six "CASCADE" Cars intended for CB&Q - NP - GN assignments?
 
........................Vern....................


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Henry
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Posts: 6080
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #110 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 4:34pm »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 4:01pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Read of the Pullmans assigned to the long-forgotten "REXALL" special of 1936......
 
http://www.themetrains.com/rexall-train-main.htm

 
I was intriuged enough by the Rexall Train to do a little research about it. I actually ended up buying a book about Rexall, The Rexall Story: A History Of Genius And Neglect. It was a pretty good read and features the Rexall Train on its cover.
 

 
Henry


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photoman475
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Posts: 870
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #111 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 5:29pm »
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Gents:
 
For six axle lightweight equipment, may I suggest the following two photos?
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1317353
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1259389
 
I would like an opinion as to whether or not these are even consider lightweight equipment, given the 30,000lb/axle limitation Vern is suggesting be used.
 
Alan


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ClydeDET
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Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #112 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 7:41pm »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 3:43pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde:
 
Great stuff......really can get into the "nitty gritty" aspect of it all!
 
I would imagine that, so far as "heavyweight" equipment went, one notable exception of having such cars use four-wheel trucks would be suburban commuter equipment.
 
Then again, this would come as little surprise, as despite the solid construction of the suburban commuter equipment, the "through" equipment would have had to have been of "sterner stuff", and, of course, be of a more substantial size than commuter stock.......
 
"SM"

 
Commuter stock, usually, even in the all-steel era, was lighter than long-distance "passenger" cars, so two-axle trucks would often carry the load. Also - two less axles per car was four wheels and four  bearings that diodn't require maintenance, so cheaper to run (a significant matter for that service).


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #113 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 7:45pm »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 7:41pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Commuter stock, usually, even in the all-steel era, was lighter than long-distance "passenger" cars, so two-axle trucks would often carry the load. Also - two less axles per car was four wheels and four  bearings that diodn't require maintenance, so cheaper to run (a significant matter for that service).

 
Clyde:
 
Yep, that's what I was thinking....the through equipment was clearly built more for "heavy duty" operation, in lieu of the "lighter" construction employed for the commuter stock.....
 
"SM"


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ClydeDET
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Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #114 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 8:15pm »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 5:29pm, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Gents:
 
For six axle lightweight equipment, may I suggest the following two photos?
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1317353
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1259389
 
I would like an opinion as to whether or not these are even consider lightweight equipment, given the 30,000lb/axle limitation Vern is suggesting be used.
 
Alan

 
I think that the big/Super Domes, Santa Fe Hi-Level (the El Cap cars, and other routes as well) diners, despite the actual equipment weight, would be considered lightweight cars by most, including the roads, because of the type construction.  Think of this: If those cars had been built of standard (traditional heavyweight)  car materials and construction technique and plans (carbon steel, riveted, etc), what would they have come in at, do you sppose? JMO, though.


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #115 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 10:11pm »
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Close-up of truck beneath SANTA FE dome #507 at Joliet, Illinois, 1971......
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf-tk507dca.jpg


« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2012, 5:09pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #116 on: Mar 31st, 2012, 10:15pm »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 10:11pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Close-up of truck beneath SANTA FEdome #507 at Joliet, Illinois, 1971......
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf-tk507dca.jpg

 
Those are a lot more complicated than the ones under most 3-axle Pullmans, but they pulled easier with the roller bearings and controlled the ride better, especially at high speeds. Of course, cost a lot more to build....
 
Of course, a lot of the later Pullmans were fitted with roller bearings after WWII (likley some even before), but still missed out on alll those coil springs and shock absorbers and things.


« Last Edit: Mar 31st, 2012, 10:18pm by ClydeDET » Logged
George_Harris
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Posts: 3796
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #117 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 12:45am »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 3:57pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde - SM - All -
 
OK! All right! All right! On this one, I would like to have some observations from Lodge Bro. George H....
 
In the event, IIRC & FWIW, my own "self taught" engineering. Should one review the seemingly endless PULLMAN work,  
there appeared to be numerous established standards. With a "stock" PULLMAN, apparently it was trying to hold to axle  
weights of N/E 30,000 lbs. Compare with weights of the classic products.
 
It opens the door, of course, on certain "article of the faith" religious issues. Keep in mind 30,000 lb. axle weight cars
capable of traveling most anywhere. A good and useful feature!
 
So, yes, into the "lightweight" era, there were examples of cars on six axles! Rare, but it happened. And, ah! "Commute  
Cars"? A throwaway line? Near all were purpose built to known operating environs...
 
.............................Vern........................

 
The old heavyweights weighed between 80 and 100 tons per car.  Streamlined cars were in the 60 to 70 ton range.  I am pulling these numbers out from looking at the back of a 1961 Frisco ETT which lists the weight of all their passenger cars.  It does not identify which cars were heavyweights and whcih were lightweights.  That can be worked out reasonable certainty from the car weights.  
 
A few I know for sure:  Lounge-Diners, no numbers just names, Kansas City, Birmingham, and Memphis are shown as weighing 104, 103, and 105 tons.  I know for sure that these were round roof heavyweights that had been painted in the colors of the streamlined equipment, sealed windows installed in the public areas but not the kitchen, and had the fluted siding attached.  I saw it and rode in it.  At that time, the normal KC Forida Special consisted of two streamlined coaches, one streamlined 14-4 sleeper, one of these diner-lounges, and a string of heavyweight head end cars including a RPO, and a pair of racehorse E-units on the front.  The thing that made me notice it was that it looked strange compared to what I had seen before, which was watching the City of New Orleans go by downtown Memphis, all four wheel trucks, including the dining car.  I had the time to stare at it as it was sitting parked in Birmingham waiting to be put in the train when it came in from Atlanta, and I was standing on the platform to catch it.  
 
OK, back to the subject:  105 tons gets you 35,000 lbs per axle.   The lightweight sleepers weighed 69 tons, which would be 34,500 lbs per axe, and the lightweight coaches appeared to come in 64 and 68 ton versions, which would be 32,000 or 34,000 lbs per axle.    
 
The presumed 8 wheel cars in the list, ranged from 58 to 69 tons, which runs out to be 29,000 lbs per axle to 34,500 lbs per axle.  The heaviest of the heavy weight cars was the business car San Francisco which was shown as weighing 115 tons, or 38,300 lbs per axle.  


« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2012, 12:46am by George_Harris » Logged
HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3432
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #118 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 10:28am »
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George - All -  
 
Many Thanks! Good you were "tuned in" and provided explanatory support.
 
See Reply #133, with link to a discussion on TRAINS. We have guys all over the map. An assortment of rookies in there  
who just can't seem to get it that: The PULLMAN CARS something of an "all purpose, run anywhere" design. Today's  
heavily laden coal cars, in very specific and defined use, and on four wheel trucks are interesting, but besides the point  
pieces of data.
 
Or: Do these guys even think that, decades back, PULLMAN cars ran branches which were hardly to standards of heavy  
traffic main lines? For those that don't "get it", then they won't appreciate the problems. For instance, the Mighty PENN  
was not all rail at 151 lb. cross section!
 
With line railroad equipment? It is a polite custom to build it so that it does not wreck the railroad!
 
............................Vern.........................


« Last Edit: Apr 1st, 2012, 10:57am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3432
Re: Union Station, Chicago: Regal Relic of Yesterday
 
« Reply #119 on: Apr 1st, 2012, 10:37am »
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on Mar 31st, 2012, 10:39pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
SOUTHERN (CNO&P) heavyweight Pullman at Cincinatti, 1967.......
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/sout/sout-c3659.jpg  

SM - All -  
 
"Spotting And Caption Violation! Ten Yards!" here. Clearly a "day coach" conversion of an older car. Per Official Register entries,  
S R S reported it in the class. (Per a MAR 1962 entry, this one a bit of a mystery, and received 3659 number post 1962.)
 
In "reading" this photo, it is a SOUTHERN RR SYSTEM Car, and part of inventory of its C N O & T P leased line. Clearly,  
NOT a PULLMAN...
 
........................Vern......................


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