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"Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
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   Author  Topic: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"  (Read 2214 times)
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #280 on: Mar 24th, 2012, 11:04pm »
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on Mar 24th, 2012, 10:57pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 
Hmm - good shot. 226 was an F-7 set (226L-A-B-C)  delivered in December 1949. But that trailing cab unit looks to be an FT - look at the four port holes...

 
Clyde:
 
SHARP eyes, my friend!
 
Good detective work!<G>
 
"SM"


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Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1724
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #281 on: Mar 24th, 2012, 11:05pm »
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on Mar 23rd, 2012, 10:53am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
The "PA" was just so damn gorgeous!
 
A tough character to deal with, without a doubt, but still one that makes for a most impressive appearance!
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf51n.jpg
 

 
 
You said it, SM ! !
 
While EMD's elegant E-units have been often compared to sleek thoroughbreds, the square-jawed PAs exuded confidence and muscle.
 
You can almost see the derby hat tipped forward and the big, fat cheroot clenched in its teeth.
 
"One side, Mac!  Comin' through!  Dat Raton Pass'll never know what hit it . . ."
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #282 on: Mar 24th, 2012, 11:16pm »
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on Mar 24th, 2012, 11:05pm, Norm_Anderson wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 
You said it, SM ! !
 
While EMD's elegant E-units have been often compared to sleek thoroughbreds, the square-jawed PAs exuded confidence and muscle.
 
You can almost see the derby hat tipped forward and the big, fat cheroot clenched in its teeth.
 
"One side, Mac!  Comin' through!  Dat Raton Pass'll never know what hit it . . ."
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm

 
 
Norm......
 
Think of George Raft when thinking of a "PA".......both of them SUAVE and MEANCING in appearance!
 
Certainly wouldn't do any good to second-guess the brute power of one of these handsome, yet fearsome, hulks......
 
"SM"


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ClydeDET
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #283 on: Mar 24th, 2012, 11:33pm »
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on Mar 24th, 2012, 1:25am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Hey, Norm:
 
Right back at ya, my friend!
 
Funny you mentioned the "slant nosed" E-1's; I have, in my ever-expanding collection, a VERY large tin battery operated SF diesel, CLEARLY a "slant", dating to the early/mid-60's.
 
For a toy, the details are pretty authentic, and I find it interesting that a "slant" toy was being made at so late a date!
 
Grabbed it off of eBay for $15 bucks, a few years ago!
 
Latest-date "slant" photo I've seen was in "SANTA FE RAILWAY", by Steve Glischinski; photo shows three trains about to depart from Kansas City, taken in 1965.
 
E-6 was in charge of the KANSAS CITYAN, bound for Dallas.
 
Looked danged fast even when standing still.....
 
"SM"
 

 
ATSF seems to have acquired the following E units:
Class 1: 1A-1B, E-1s
Class 2: 2-9; 2A-4A, E-2s
Class 11: 11, 12-15, E-3, E-4
 
All Slant-noses except Amos & Andy, that were repeatedly rebuilt and ultimately turned in for final rebuild to E-8ms in 1953 (83A and 84A)
 
2 Class were all pre-War (12-37 to 4-3, and turned in for rebuilds into the 80-Class in 1953
 
11-Class included 11L-A, 8-39, an E-3 and the only one the Santa Fe bought and E-4s 12-15, all two unit locomotives.
 
And that is all the E-s on the Santa Fe.
 
50 was an Alco (DL-109/110 A-B set) as were the following 51 Class, the PAs and PBs. 90 was a three unit FM Cab set (90L-A-B) and the only A-1-A FMs on the property. FM switchers there were, but only one lone passenger lkocomotive.


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ClydeDET
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #284 on: Mar 24th, 2012, 11:38pm »
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on Mar 24th, 2012, 11:04pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Clyde:
 
SHARP eyes, my friend!
 
Good detective work!<G>
 
"SM"

 
Thank Bob Lehmann, MD for the sharp eyes - see much better since my cataract surgery. 20-20 in the right eye, no glasses at all (though i need my tri-focals to deal with computer screens and books..). Left eye is perfect at reading distance now, but needs help to be sharp at a distance.  
 
The detective work is courtesy of IRON HORSES OF THE SANTA FE RAIL, which is a wonderful piece of work, even of it cuts off at 1965.


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Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1724
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #285 on: Mar 24th, 2012, 11:55pm »
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on Mar 24th, 2012, 11:33pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
ATSF seems to have acquired the following E units:
Class 1: 1A-1B, E-1s
Class 2: 2-9; 2A-4A, E-2s
Class 11: 11, 12-15, E-3, E-4
 
All Slant-noses except Amos & Andy, that were repeatedly rebuilt and ultimately turned in for final rebuild to E-8ms in 1953 (83A and 84A)
 
2 Class were all pre-War (12-37 to 4-3, and turned in for rebuilds into the 80-Class in 1953
 
11-Class included 11L-A, 8-39, an E-3 and the only one the Santa Fe bought and E-4s 12-15, all two unit locomotives.
 
And that is all the E-s on the Santa Fe.
 
50 was an Alco (DL-109/110 A-B set) as were the following 51 Class, the PAs and PBs. 90 was a three unit FM Cab set (90L-A-B) and the only A-1-A FMs on the property. FM switchers there were, but only one lone passenger lkocomotive.

 
Clyde, your point is very well taken.  When I said that "Santa Fe didn't buy any new E-units . . ." the wind was blowing right through my ears.  What I had meant to convey was that Santa Fe didn't buy any new E-8s.  Of course, the E1s and other slant-nosed units were purchased new.  Sometimes my mouth is a perfect size 12D.
 
Red-faced regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Mar 24th, 2012, 11:59pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3432
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #286 on: Mar 25th, 2012, 10:56am »
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Norm - SM - All -
 
ALCO PA Power? This an incidental note, from OT Ville. During residence in Bay Area, many were aware of ESPEE  
thinking on why it did things its way. Its encounters with CAL PUC were always amusing! The line was as "hard line"  
as SOUTHERN, and long past patience with Sacramento originated nonsense...
 
The line made the discovery the PA power had excellent capabilities, on its own passenger fleet, to deal with the Sierra,  
Shasta and Cascade Ranges. The PA units with qualities wherein ESPEE thought as best choice on the assigned lines.
 
.........................Vern.................


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ClydeDET
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #287 on: Mar 25th, 2012, 9:48pm »
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McCall's book on the development of diesel power on the Santa Fe includes some of the early test runs of the PAs (which had 244-series prime movers). They were very impressive, including the ability to slog along when they hot grades or needed to hustle tonnage. Impressive enough that after they bought 51L-A-C in 1946 (1750 hp; re-engined by EMD in 1955), they ordered the 52-class (52L-A-B to 57L-A-B and 58L-A to 61L-A and 70L-A to73L-A). 64L to 69L were renumbered 52B-57B, and 74L to 78L were renumbered 58B to 62B.
 
80-class (80L-A to 84L-A and 85L to 87L) were E8ms, rebuilds of 2A, 4, 2B,4A, 3, 3A, 5, 1A, 6, 1B,7, 8, and 9, done 9-52 to 4-53.
 
Santra Fe id a lot of re-numbering so you have to be careful about checking your histories in sorting out which engine came when and from where.
 
The slant-nose Es (to my eye the ones with the extra head lights added and the top light in a bezel instead of streamlined into the nose contour) were the prettiest diesel-eltrics operated by anybody, and the ones in red warbonnets the best looking of any turned out (I need to get a spare slant-nose E and paint it up like the F Bluebonnets of the '70s - Passenger Fs with thye red warbonnets repainted blue; I think that might look rather noce, if not as brightly eye-catching).


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HwyHaulier
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #288 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 9:04am »
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Clyde -  
 
The attraction of the ALCO PA units? Somewhere, sometime along this time travel adventure, I have read or heard accounts of  
a strength of the ALCO product. That being: The G E traction motors with some very solid capabilities. Evidently, the motors  
were not as susceptible to over heat, when on long, hard upgrades, which ESPEE discovered in its own in service experiences...
 
Ah! Looks are nice, but it always a business, too. Seems odd F-M didn't find many buyers for its "C-Liner" products. It, too, a  
good piece of power, IMHO...
 
........................Vern........................


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ClydeDET
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #289 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 5:46pm »
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C-Liners were, essentially, an A-1-A (instead of C-C) Trainmaster in cab-unit disguise. And by the time they came out, there was already a realization that prolly hood units were the way to go instead of covered wagons. Add the higher costs of F-M power and its minority status as compared to EMD or ALCO, and there you are.
 
The Santa Fe apparently had some adventures with the 90-unit, though. Bought around 65 F-M switchers right after the war. but no road-freight units other than the 1952 buy of 20, in the 2800-class (renumbered that same year to the 3000 class), Both of those buys were in numbers that look, for the Santa Fe, more like experiments than "we like these". I think it is suggestive (of something) that Santa Fe bought the first batches, and didn't re-order. Prety much the same with Baldwin D-Es - switchers, but not road power.


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Henry
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #290 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 6:28pm »
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Santa Fe's A1A FM's were 2,000 HP passenger Erie Builts, not C-Liners. Erie Builts were first produced in December of 1945 while C-Liners weren't built until January of 1950.
 
C-Liners (Consolidation Line) were not available with two A1A six-axle trucks. C-Liners were available in freight unit B-B and passenger unit B-A1A wheel arrangements with 1,600, 2,000 and 2,400 HP engines. The passenger units had the rear A1A truck to bear the extra weight of the steam generator. I believe that a CFA24-5 2,400 HP freight unit was cataloged, but never produced and the A1A rear truck would have been used to help support the extra weight of 12 cylinder OP engine.
 
While C-Liners were available with the 2,400 HP OP engine like the Train Masters, you couldn't get a C-C trucked C-Liner. FM's only other C-C unit was the H16-66, which was sometimes called a Baby Train Master.
 
Henry


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ClydeDET
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #291 on: Mar 26th, 2012, 8:47pm »
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on Mar 26th, 2012, 6:28pm, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Santa Fe's A1A FM's were 2,000 HP passenger Erie Builts, not C-Liners. Erie Builts were first produced in December of 1945 while C-Liners weren't built until January of 1950.
 
C-Liners (Consolidation Line) were not available with two A1A six-axle trucks. C-Liners were available in freight unit B-B and passenger unit B-A1A wheel arrangements with 1,600, 2,000 and 2,400 HP engines. The passenger units had the rear A1A truck to bear the extra weight of the steam generator. I believe that a CFA24-5 2,400 HP freight unit was cataloged, but never produced and the A1A rear truck would have been used to help support the extra weight of 12 cylinder OP engine.
 
While C-Liners were available with the 2,400 HP OP engine like the Train Masters, you couldn't get a C-C trucked C-Liner. FM's only other C-C unit was the H16-66, which was sometimes called a Baby Train Master.
 
Henry

 
Thanks for that correction and my apologies for goofing up the historical designation  of the F-M models.


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HwyHaulier
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #292 on: Mar 27th, 2012, 7:13am »
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Henry - CC: Clyde - Fellow Members -
 
Many Thanks! TRAINS had some excellent coverage of the entire F-M matter, some time back. (All the more reason,  
I guess, to buy the set of CD/DVD product from Kalmbach, of everything that ever was in TRAINS.)
 
So that: The F-M product a bit of a curiosity on the Great Timeline. Granted, it was a very good curiosity, yet still could  
not get all that many sold. I recall, and rode behind the ESPEE units at work. Great power!
 
............................Vern.......................


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ClydeDET
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #293 on: Mar 27th, 2012, 11:07am »
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F-M OPs are still favored power for generators and pumps (BIG pumps) on off-shore oil rigs. Or so i have been told by folks who should know.

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photoman475
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #294 on: Mar 27th, 2012, 8:33pm »
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Evening Gents:
 
The Long Island had some of the 2400HP CLiners for passenger work, as did the New Haven and the New York Central.   Oddly enough, the PRR never had any of the 2400HP, but did have the 1600HP freight version.
 
I'd recommend a visit to http://www.thedieselshop.us/MPR.html for some neat photos and basic roster information.
 
For a nice collection of FM photos, I'd suggest http://www.google.com/search?q=fairbanks+morse+locomotives&hl=en&sa=X&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=rlpyT_OFK8PQ2wXywIj2Dg&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1090&bih=834 .
 
Have a good one, and as I'm sure you figured out, I'm partial towards FM!
 
Alan
 


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HwyHaulier
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #295 on: Mar 28th, 2012, 10:01am »
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Alan -  
 
Many Thanks! I guess we have strayed from SUPER CHIEF?
 
Great to see the links you provided. The F-M Power had enviable records. Interesting to note both VGN and SOU used  
effectively in heavy, coal service. Also, in the Photo Panel, note the SOU "Motor Train" of 1939, which the line had six.  
There was good supporting print advertising of the time, promoting ridership. At one time, IMHO, one or two assigned to  
SOU line serving St. Louis...
 
.......................Vern......................


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photoman475
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #296 on: Mar 2nd, 2013, 10:15pm »
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Vern:
 
We may have strayed a bit, but I suppose it's feasible that the 90 series Eries may have a had a turn or two pulling the Super Chief!
 
The C-Liners were a few years too late, me thinketh.  The PRR and MILW had a nice collection of them for frieght service.  I remember seeing the MILW's waiting at Bensenville for their equipment trusts to expire before heading off to the scrapper.  I was too young to know that at the time!
 
Alan


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HwyHaulier
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #297 on: Mar 3rd, 2013, 7:37am »
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Alan - All -  
 
Sure! I'll spot you the hypothesis the #90 - F M covered some selected SUPER CHIEF assignments. After all, when Santa Fe signed its order,  
surely it of thinking the F M the latest, greatest thing, and it was up to them to figure how to deploy it...
 
BTW. See E-Mail. Another issue, another time involving MILW.
 
........................Vern.....................


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Garl B. Latham
TRAINing
Posts: 11
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #298 on: Aug 8th, 2013, 10:32pm »
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My goodness gracious!
 
I suppose this is what I get for not visiting the site more often...
 
<grin>
 
Thank you, SM, for finding and re-posting my tome - and to everyone who has offered comments. Fifteen pages, yet? I'll probably be sifting through this stuff for a while!
 
Greetings to Clyde, Vern, Norm and others I've had the pleasure of "meeting" here before.
 
Best wishes to all,
Garl


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