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"Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
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   Author  Topic: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"  (Read 2270 times)
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #200 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:06am »
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Even "Ol' Dobbin" rode in style on the SANTA FE......<G>
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf-b1995.jpg


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3433
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #201 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:34am »
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on Mar 21st, 2012, 9:57am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Another classic view at Dearborn St., 1965.....
 
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/chicago_6_1965.jpg  

SM -  
 
OT here! This site might be "Algoma Central" for a reason. Wondering of the story on the dark Blue and Tan heavyweight Car, just beyond A T S F equipment?
 
.........................Vern........................


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Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #202 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 11:21am »
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on Mar 21st, 2012, 10:34am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

SM -  
 
OT here! This site might be "Algoma Central" for a reason. Wondering of the story on the dark Blue and Tan heavyweight Car, just beyond A T S F equipment?
 
.........................Vern........................

 
Vern......
 
To be honest, I thought for sure you'd be the one to "tell the story" on that handsome piece of classic varnish!<G>
 
How much variety there was on the rails, back in the day.....
 
"SM"


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #203 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 12:54pm »
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More classic action at Dearborn Station (SANTA FE, E-L, etc.).
 
Nice selection of vintage color photos, here......
 
http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?location=Dearborn%20station


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 12:57pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #204 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 1:34pm »
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A haunting image of Dearborn Station in 1974, recalling sad echoes of the CNJ terminal in Jersey City, after its abandonment in 1967.
 
Amazing of how much was lost in just a few short years.....
 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7547061@N02/2531678205/


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3433
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #205 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 1:48pm »
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on Mar 21st, 2012, 11:21am, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...To be honest, I thought for sure you'd be the one to "tell the story" on that handsome piece of classic varnish!<G>...  

SM -  
 
Ah! The car just "...does not compute..."! The track it occupied may not have been on the A T S F assigned spaces.  
Beyond that, it just gets worse! It does tend to resemble a Parlor/Buffet - Lounge/Observation type. But, but... Those  
colors? Not in my immediate recall (and may never be)!
 
In playing the game, note but five characters on the letterboard. And, how to explain the red logo beneath windows?
 
.....................Vern......................


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #206 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 1:59pm »
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on Mar 21st, 2012, 1:48pm, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

SM -  
 
Ah! The car just "...does not compute..."! The track it occupied may not have been on the A T S F assigned spaces.  
Beyond that, it just gets worse! It does tend to resemble a Parlor/Buffet - Lounge/Observation type. But, but... Those  
colors? Not in my immediate recall (and may never be)!
 
In playing the game, note but five characters on the letterboard. And, how to explain the red logo beneath windows?
 
.....................Vern......................

 
 
Vern....
 
Pardon the pun, but I see we are both basically "on the same track" with this enticing little mystery!<G>
 
Like yourself, I also was thinking of a possible parlor/buffet type.....beyond that, I haven't a clue as to just "what's what'!
 
This is just the sort of thing that makes our hobby so intriguing!
 
"SM"


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #207 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 2:09pm »
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Vern/All:
 
On a hunch, just decided to consult my copy of "MONON ROUTE" by G.W. Hilton; while I am not going to make an iron-clad comment on this "mystery" car, from the pics I just glanced at, this just MIGHT have been a MONON vehicle....
 
"SM"


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Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1724
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #208 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 4:47pm »
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Vern, and SM,
 
Right you are ! !  The "mystery car" in the 1965 photo at Dearborn is indeed a Monon car.  The colors are black and gold, which was initially Monon's "freight scheme" (and the School Colors of Indiana's own Purdue University); postwar passenger trains were initially done up in Indiana University's red-and-grey with white pinstriping, but by the 1960s even the passenger equipment had adopted the black-and-gold.  That "red spot" on the side of the coach is the circular Monon herald (bold white "M" --with feather accent--  on a bright red field).
 
That car even has a bit of a story to tell.   Monon's attempt to hop aboard the streamlining bandwagon had to be accomplished within some fairly tight budget constraints.  Monon President John W. Barriger (as I recall) did a nice bit of outside-the-box thinking on this one.  There was a plentiful supply of US Army Hospital Cars, which suddenly had become surplus after VJ-Day.  So, not only was the price right, but these cars were reputed to have an exceptionally "soft ride" (perfectly reasonable, considering their originally-intended passenger manifest).  As the story goes, Monon cherry-picked the best of the bunch and converted them into its new passenger fleet.  The cars are "modernized," not true lightweights, and rode on six-wheel trucks; and they are shorter than the standard 85 feet; but monon converted them into Chair Cars, Parlor Cars, and even Parlor/Dinette cars.  The Monon was apparently a point of fierce civic pride to Hoosiers of that era.
 
As to, "What's it doing there, all by itself?"  my hunch is it might have been set out due to mechanical trouble (detected on its northbound trip?), and the southbound train may have had to leave without it.  In the 1950s, Monon operated three passenger trains; the Hoosier and the Tippecanoe each made a daily round-trip between Indianapolis and Chicago; one trainset overnighted at each end of the line, and traveled one way under one name, and returned under the other name.  There was also the overnight Thoroughbred between Chicago and Louisville (two trainsets, operating southbound one day, northbound the next).  By 1965, it's possible that only the Thoroughbred survived.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 4:58pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #209 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 4:50pm »
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SM -  
 
Yes, I have come around to a presumption we see a MONON ROUTE Car, which had been in regular services in its featured,  
THOROUGHBRED. Guess we need actual OFFICIAL GUIDE entries, either at or before photo date, so to clarify. It remains,  
MONON was not a dominating player at Chicago, and it used Dearborn...
 
(1700 HR) Norm - Many Thanks! It isn't precisely SUPER CHIEF, but it called at the same Station!
 
BTW. IMHO, the Car was there so as to provision food service requirements...
 
.....................Vern.....................


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 5:02pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1724
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #210 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 5:21pm »
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on Mar 21st, 2012, 8:01am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Norm -  
 
(Yours here, 11:26p 20 MAR) On the "heavy power" assignments of units. I just plain overlooked how demanding the climb over and through  
Cajon Pass. So, considering the photo of train appearing quite overpowered with six units? Does this imply the first two were helpers to get  
over the Pass, which when done would cut off and return?
 
In my exposure to it, I've been aware of requirement for helper districts along entire routes into Chicago, but can't name them from memory.  
On another note, thanks for photo at Barstow. Soon as I saw it, realized this the much newer Shops site, built with the coming of Diesels.  
As noted, I have not personally seen the Shops at San Bernardino, Barstow and Topeka.
 
The "four pack" boxes, on the six wheel truck flat. George H. has the full story on axle loadings. In my own observations, Passenger equipment  
seemed to have been about 30,000 lbs. per axle. That works, except it raises questions about weights on the Bulk Mail and Express Cars.
 
......................Vern.....................

 
 
Vern, the use of Helpers on Cajon changed dramatically with the changeover from Steam to Diesel (more precisely, with the advent of Dynamic Braking).  In Steam days, eastbounds would receive their Helpers at San Bernardino, while westbounds would strap on their Helpers at Victorville.  (Victorville to Summit was about 21 miles of 1.75% upgrade).  The extra steamers would be cut out at Summit and return "light" to the base of the Hill for another shove.  Freight Helpers were often cut in behind the tonnage (but ahead of the caboose!), and if the train was heavy enough, another Helper would be placed on the point; common practice for heavy eastbounds would be Helper - Road Engine - Tonnage - Helper - Helper - Caboose.  Passenger Helpers were, I believe, always on the point, as a matter of safety.
 
To retain a Steam Helper on the downhill side of the run would have been counterproductive - - simply more tonnage to try to hold in check.  But with the advent of Diesels with Dynamic Braking, it became desirable to keep the Helpers on board from one end of the Hill to the other.  AT&SF Freight Helpers routinely ran San Bernardino to Victorville (or even to Barstow).  UP Helpers were added at Riverside, I believe, and were dropped either at Victorville, or sometimes at Yermo (about 13 miles east of Barstow).  By the 1960s, neither Road used Passenger Helpers, as such.  Santa Fe would sometimes swap the entire power set at Barstow (five F's would be replaced by four; or, later, by two FP45s).
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
 
P.S.  Your theory about the Monon car's being stocked with "provisions" sounds sensible to me-- the photo looks like it was taken in late afternoon, and southbound No. 5, the Thoroughbred, may have offered dinner out of Chicago from what was called a "Dining Grill-Coach."


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 5:40pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #211 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 6:02pm »
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Norm/Vern:
 
Ahhh, mystery solved!
 
Thank you , Charlie Chan (and Norm!)<G>
 
As I had said to Vern in a phone discussion earlier, I had this nagging feeling that vwhat we were seeing wasa MONON car, possibly of a diner/buffet/lounge type.
 
My copy of G. W. Hilton's "MONON ROUTE" virtually confirmed that this was indeed a piece of MONON rolling stock.....was MORE than worth the effort required to dig it out!<G>
 
As I had said to Vern, the car's general overall appearance remind me of similiar DL&W equipment that lasted on certain through trains into the early E-L era.
 
Norm, again, THANKS for your most valuable info!
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 6:04pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1724
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #212 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 6:03pm »
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on Mar 21st, 2012, 1:58am, Les_Shepherd wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Norm,
 
Thank you for that wonderful photo at Barstow.
 
The attached image was taken on 13th February 2010.
 
All questions will be happily answered.

 
 
Les, your 2010 photo is quite wonderful.  Is the lead E-unit painted in Victoria Railways colors?  When I am lost in virtual railroading with my Ultimate Trainz railroad simulator, I use a unit labeled "VRE Blue" to simulate Santa Fe freight power-- if you took the unit in your photo, lightened the yellow just a bit, and changed the brown to navy blue, voila! you would have the Santa Fe's "cat's whiskers" scheme, even down to the vermilion pinstripes (which, alas, on Santa Fe did not survive the first repaint).
 
When EMD was trying to persuade railroads to abandon steam in favor of General Motors products, they had their Styling Section develop paintings of what the proposed locomotives would look like-- the railroads could select the colors, and suggest other modifications, but the paint schemes largely repeated one of about a half-dozen "themes."  (The Erie Railroad was another user of the basic "cat's whiskers" design.)
 
In whatever paint scheme was chosen, it's hard to beat that classic "1940 Chevy" styling.
 
By the way, I'd really like to hear more about the train, and the occasion of the photograph.  I'm also quite impressed with that immaculate roadbed ! !
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #213 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 6:52pm »
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All:
 
Though I do not want to get "too much off track" regarding the SF, while we're briefly discussing the MONON, I thought the following might be of interest.....
 
"SM"
 
http://mononrr.com/mpages/pages/mpn.htm
 
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track4/thoroughbred195103.html


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 6:54pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #214 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 8:52pm »
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Hey, weren't we supposed to be discussing the SANTA FE here?
 
Here's a timeless view from the mid-60's of an (unidentified) SF train (no head-end equipment on this run) just outside Dearborn; note the classic box cars in the background....DL&W/E-L/NP/C&NW, among others!
 
Man, if this don't truly date this wonderful and nostalgic old view!
 
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/ATSF_301_T.jpg


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #215 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:02pm »
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Another old SF view at Dearborn, July, 1965.
 
"Baby" FM switcher "walkin' the walk".......classic car buffs will certainly notice the 1950's and 60's-vintage autos in the background.......
 
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/chicago_5_1965.jpg


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ClydeDET
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #216 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:24pm »
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Those FM OP powered hood units were really attractive. "Baby Trainmaster" styling on that one doesn't hurt, not at all. I'll see what IRON HORSES OF THE SANTA FE TRAIL has to say about it and post after we wash dishes.
 
Edit - OK, 542 was one of three units of the 541 class. Buit by FM in May, 1956, as the middle unit in a class of three, model H12-44 TS in FM's designation. Builder # 12-L-1022. 1200 hp; 40" wheels; weighed 246400 pounds; 61600 pounds of tractive effort; B-B trucks. Lengthened H12-44 switchers to provide room for the short hood with steam generator. All three used as passenger switchers at Dearborn. Except fo the steam generators, identical mechnically (and electrically) to the H12-44s of the 503-class (503-564, built n several lots from 1950 thru 1957). Still operating when IRON HORSES OF THE SANTA FE TRAIL w published in 1965 (I have a third printing, 1983, but textual information wasn't changed, no data after 1965 included).


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 11:08pm by ClydeDET » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #217 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:36pm »
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on Mar 21st, 2012, 10:24pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Those FM OP posered hood units were really attractive. "BAby Trainmaster" styig on that one doesn't hurt, not at all. I'll see what IRON HORSES OF THE SANTA FE TRAIL has to say about it and post after we wash dishes.

 
Clyde:
 
Check out this photo of an E-L (ex-ERIE) Stillwell rider coach at Dearborn in 1966; note the SF "Baby" FM switcher in the right background.....
 
"SM"
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/erie-r21.jpg


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:37pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #218 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:52pm »
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Here are a few 1966 views (at Chicago) of SF FM swichers; note E-L head-end cars in one view.........
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf0543jpb.jpg
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf0543jpc.jpg
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf0543jpa.jpg


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #219 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:58pm »
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This moody view of an FM switcher (at Chicago) dates to 1950; note the long strings of heavyweight equipment..........
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf500ajg.jpg


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 10:59pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
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