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"Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
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   Author  Topic: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"  (Read 2293 times)
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #180 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 12:17am »
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This outstanding photo at Deaborn, taken in 1966, truly exemplifies the tremendous loads of mail the SANTA FE (and other railroads) carried before the the "Powers That Be" decided to remove most of the mails from the rails.
 
Any wonder, then, why the American passenger rail industry never recovered after the loss of the mail traffic?
 
This is truly one of the most timeless and classic views of bygone passenger railroading I've come across in quite a long time!
 
(note E-L "Stillwell" rider coach in the background!)
 
"SM"
 
http://www.bcoolidge.com/pictures/The-Chief-at-Dearborn-Station-Chicago_11_12_66_w.jpg


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2012, 12:19am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3434
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #181 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 7:33am »
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on Mar 19th, 2012, 11:02pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
No info on this photo, except that it was taken at Los Angeles (1960's).
 
This an REX "Unit-Haul" car............
 
http://lariverrailroads.com/passcar/rex3411.jpg  

SM -  
 
Way back when there were endless ideas of "containerized" cargo, there were as many approaches to the engineering and the solutions.  
The "UNIT-HAUL" boxes apparently not that of builder of the ATSF "Four Pack" shown at Dearborn. (Compare various features seen.)
 
Yours (10:41p), REX 4098? Notably this one of its huge fleet of REFRIGERATED cars...
 
........................Vern...................  
 
 


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3434
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #182 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 9:26am »
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on Mar 19th, 2012, 6:51pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
...Listing of SF mail/express trains, as per the April, 1968 OFFICIAL RAILWAY EQUIPMENT REGISTER...
 
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Internet/Consists/07FstMl-60.htm

SM -  
 
In point of (nit picking) fact, the REGISTER same as a filed ICC TARIFF Publication. It provided detail of ownership  
and particulars of each owned car. It did not provide schedules and consists reference daily deployment.
 
The Consists here, we should presume obtained from source documents of A T S F Dispatch Sheets.
 
.........................Vern...................


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #183 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 9:38am »
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Vern......
 
Too, I think that this also serves to illustrate that "head end equipment" on the SF (and other roads) went far beyond the scope of the more utilitarian and commonplace baggage, mail-storage, RPO, express, and combos.
 
TOFC's and containers, as we've seen, were also part of head-end operations, through the 60's.
 
Recall the photos I discovered of NYC "FLEXI-VANS" on the "GRAND CANYON"; stands to reason, surely, that other such photos exist.....somewhere.....
 
"SM"


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3434
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #184 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 9:43am »
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on Mar 19th, 2012, 11:44pm, Norm_Anderson wrote:       (Click here for original message)
... - - an aside about the Mail Vans - - I remember seeing them in Barstow on the San Francisco Chief.  And I was intrigued by the photos you posted, intrigued that both containers and flatcar are clearly labeled SANTA FE.  And, unless my eyes deceive me, I believe those are beefy six-wheel trucks under the flatcar?  It's clear they didn't scrounge around for a few old Trailer Train cars that nobody else was using . . .  As special as they were, though, I can't force myself to imagine they ever showed up on the Super Chief/El Capitan.  I think a guy might pay with his job for a decision like that.

Norm -
 
Referring to: http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf-mc216jpa.jpg
 
The photo is puzzling. It suggests "containerization" in the Early Days. We see what is clearly a separate school of thought.  
Design would have considered no one had any idea how heavily each "box" could load, in daily service. Were all four "boxes"  
loaded heavily (30,000 lbs. or more?) a possibility? In the case, the loaded car would have had weight of an older "heavyweight"  
PULLMAN...
 
Sidenote. In Bad, Old Days, some of the loads to the twenty (20) ft. boxes were astonishing. Coming "off the West" shipments  
could often be cartons of canned pineapple, or canned tuna. Both quite heavy...
 
BTW. In the collection of San Bernardino 1964 photos? Are the FLEXI-VAN views outside Shops at Barstow?
 
......................Vern....................


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #185 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 9:45am »
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on Mar 20th, 2012, 9:26am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

SM -  
 
In point of (nit picking) fact, the REGISTER same as a filed ICC TARIFF Publication. It provided detail of ownership  
and particulars of each owned car. It did not provide schedules and consists reference daily deployment.
 
The Consists here, we should presume obtained from source documents of A T S F Dispatch Sheets.
 
.........................Vern...................

 
Vern.....
 
This document I came across was indeed interesting, as, far too often, the documents/pages dedicated mail/express haulers on the 'net today usually play "second fiddle" to the more "up front" pages relating to the streamliners and other important through trains.
 
IMHO, more attention should be paid to the head-end operations of old, particularly on the SF.......that revenue from the head-end traffic was what really kept the varnish moving!
 
Had to be a real coreographed act, assembling the trains of various roads at Dearborn, back in the days when head-end traffic was still an integral part of day-to-day operations......
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2012, 9:47am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #186 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 10:03am »
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All:
 
Came across another SF passenger info page; consist info, etc. on both the SUPER CHIEF and THE CHIEF.....
 
"SM"
 
http://www.elmassian.com/trains/santa-fe-prototype-info/passenger-car-roster


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #187 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 10:05am »
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Excellent site:"SANTA FE PASSENGER TRAINS: LIGHTWEIGHT AND DIESEL ERA" (see menu on left side of page)
 
http://santafe.gmbus.com


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2012, 10:17am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #188 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 11:52am »
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All:
 
Came across this site on the history and development of passenger train lighting and air-conditioning; there are several mentions of SF equipment here.
 
In 1899, it is stated here, the SF installed axle-driven generators in 100 cars, one of the first successful uses of the concept.....
 
http://utahrails.net/pass/dynamos-hep.php


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #189 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 2:35pm »
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'RAILROADIN' BY RADIO"
 
Though not really on-topic, this excellent SANTA FE MAGAZINE article from 1944 is too interesting to ignore.........
 
http://www.railsandtrails.com/AT&SF/Radio1944/index.html


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2012, 2:37pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #190 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 10:49pm »
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"A TYPICAL DAY AS TRAIN NO. 8 SPEEDS EASTWARD"
 
http://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2005/fall/fast-mail-side.html


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2012, 10:51pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1724
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #191 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 11:26pm »
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on Mar 20th, 2012, 9:43am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Norm -
 
Referring to: http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf-mc216jpa.jpg
 
The photo is puzzling. It suggests "containerization" in the Early Days. We see what is clearly a separate school of thought.  
Design would have considered no one had any idea how heavily each "box" could load, in daily service. Were all four "boxes"  
loaded heavily (30,000 lbs. or more?) a possibility? In the case, the loaded car would have had weight of an older "heavyweight"  
PULLMAN...
 
Sidenote. In Bad, Old Days, some of the loads to the twenty (20) ft. boxes were astonishing. Coming "off the West" shipments  
could often be cartons of canned pineapple, or canned tuna. Both quite heavy...
 
BTW. In the collection of San Bernardino 1964 photos? Are the FLEXI-VAN views outside Shops at Barstow?
 
......................Vern....................

 
 
Vern, I suspect that four mail containers, each weighing 30,000 lbs., would be considered within the realm of "reasonable."  I think by the mid-'60s, tank cars and hopper cars were generally in the 100,000 lb. to 120,000 lb. gross weight range, so 120,000 lbs. on an 85-foot flat would not be outlandish.  And, again, these do not appear to be your garden-variety TrailerTrain flatcars, either.
 
A couple of musings about San Bernardino . . . I am 100% sure that the shops in the photos are the San Bernardino Shops, and not the Barstow Shops.  In the photo of the NYC mail containers, you can see the station platforms in the foreground-- at Barstow, the shops were much further removed, on the other side of a classification yard.  The depot at San Bernardino was (still is!) on the south side of the tracks, while the Shops complex (now gone) was on the north side.
 
For comparison, here is a rather good photo of the Barstow Shops (looking east), from about 1953, I'm guessing.  The big Casa del Desierto depot/Harvey House/crew hotel would be about a quarter-mile off-frame to the left and slightly behind the photographer.  In front of the shop buildings are (from left) a presumably brand-new passenger F7 set (#307LABC, it looks like); a slightly older passenger F3 (#16?); and three (also brand-new) 200-series freight F7sets, in the original "cat's whiskers" freight scheme.
 
http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/221245/page/1
 
 
Also, the appearance of six or more locomotives on the point of some of the trains at San Bernardino had less to do with "deadhead moves," and much more to do with the assault on Cajon Pass, which began shortly outside the east end Yard Limits.  Eastbounds needed that much power to conquer the 25 miles of steady 2.2% grade, and Westbounds needed that much dynamic braking to "land" safely in San Berdoo.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm
 


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 1:06am by Norm_Anderson » Logged
Les_Shepherd
Historian
Posts: 424
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
  450_1357.jpg - 94103 Bytes
« Reply #192 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 1:58am »
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Norm,
 
Thank you for that wonderful photo at Barstow.
 
The attached image was taken on 13th February 2010.
 
All questions will be happily answered.


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/PassengerTrains/450_1357.jpg
Click Image to Resize

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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #193 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 2:48am »
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"TRAIN TIME ON CAJON PASS, JUNE 1964"
 
Several color photos of the FAST MAIL and the GRAND CANYON.
 
One photo depicts a lengthy GRAND CANYON consist, including five express reefers and two baggage cars.
 
Once all that head-end traffic evaporated......
 
http://coastdaylight.com/cp/cajon_64.html


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 2:53am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #194 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 2:52am »
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"SANTA FE AT THE GRAND CANYON, 1965"......
 
http://coastdaylight.com/grnd_cnyn.html


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 2:53am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #195 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 2:56am »
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"THE SAN DIEGAN AT SANTA ANA, JULY, 1970"
 
Twilight time for the Santa Fe.....
 
http://coastdaylight.com/santa_ana.html


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 2:57am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #196 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 3:02am »
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"THE AT&SF AND THE MP AT HOUSTON, DECEMBER, 1963"........
 
http://coastdaylight.com/houston.html


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3434
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #197 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 8:01am »
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Norm -  
 
(Yours here, 11:26p 20 MAR) On the "heavy power" assignments of units. I just plain overlooked how demanding the climb over and through  
Cajon Pass. So, considering the photo of train appearing quite overpowered with six units? Does this imply the first two were helpers to get  
over the Pass, which when done would cut off and return?
 
In my exposure to it, I've been aware of requirement for helper districts along entire routes into Chicago, but can't name them from memory.  
On another note, thanks for photo at Barstow. Soon as I saw it, realized this the much newer Shops site, built with the coming of Diesels.  
As noted, I have not personally seen the Shops at San Bernardino, Barstow and Topeka.
 
The "four pack" boxes, on the six wheel truck flat. George H. has the full story on axle loadings. In my own observations, Passenger equipment  
seemed to have been about 30,000 lbs. per axle. That works, except it raises questions about weights on the Bulk Mail and Express Cars.
 
......................Vern.....................


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #198 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 9:53am »
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Lengthy consist just outside of Dearborn St., hauled by three new U28CG's, late 60's.....
 
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/ATSF_358_T.jpg


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 9:55am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #199 on: Mar 21st, 2012, 9:57am »
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Another classic view at Dearborn St., 1965.....
 
http://algomacentral.railfan.net/images/Oldies/chicago_6_1965.jpg


« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2012, 9:58am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
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