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"Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
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   Author  Topic: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"  (Read 2283 times)
SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #160 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:32am »
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on Mar 19th, 2012, 11:17am, photoman475 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Silver Meteor:
 
I just remembered-the ATSF also had U28CGs in the red warbonnet scheme.  I don't know if any ever saw service on the Super Chief.
 
The ATSF also rostered a set of FM Eries, which may have been been used on the Super Chief a time or two.  They really were orphans on the Santa Fe-the only set they ever acquired.
 
Here's a couple leaving Dearborn:
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=133672
 
Alan

 
Alan:
 
Earlier in this thread, I'd posted a couple of photos of the U28CG's; also, in "SANTA FE RAILWAY" by Steve Glischinski, there is a 1968 photo of one of these monsters hauling the TEXAS CHIEF out of Chicago.
 
Looked quite impressive in that classic Warbonnet paint!
 
"SM"


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #161 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:49am »
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Alan - SM - All -  
 
"FLEXI-VAN" something of a cabal between N Y C and STRICK. For the most part it was solid engineering, but the product  
could be vicious in Terminal handling in inclement and bad weather. N Y C reached agreement with a small number of lines,  
for joint through moves. MILW, SOU, IC (possibly?) went for it. Your writer uncertain about ATSF.
 
Now then, it is known SUPER CHIEF did carry a small amount of "hot" First Class Mail moves, KCY & CGO - LAX. Whether  
the flats with containers ("Lift Vans") ever on the schedule dubious? IMHO, I can imagine how it may have moved on several  
of the CHIEF schedules. (Someone find the photos, please! <G>)
 
F-M POWER on ATSF? See the 'Net references (and likely in print, too) on it. Doubtful it would have been on SUPER CHIEF.  
May have had some trials and tests on other Passenger schedules. Excellent units, though a competitor in a tough market.
 
Sidenote, Southern Style? The company culture being it run by a number of Southern Gentlemen of high purpose, and very  
much of independent minds. They didn't want anyone meddling with how the Railroad operated. Surely, they were rigid that  
no one else to use its good name. That should explain its early rejection of AMTK. IMHO, they figured they could carry any  
losses, with little adverse effect. Besides, they were suspicious of "Yankee" FEDS. (Yes! It was like a Faulkner novel!)...
 
..........................Vern.....................


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:51am by HwyHaulier » Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #162 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 1:07pm »
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Vern/Alan/All:
 
Just came across this photo of a SF "stretch" express car at Dearborn Station, May, 1966.....thought it might be of some interest.....
 
"SM"
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/atsf/atsf002125jpa.jpg


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #163 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 1:22pm »
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"TRAIN TIME AT SAN BERNARDINO, 1964-65", another of those "DO NOT MISS THIS!" historic photo pages!
 
LENGHTY SF and UP consists, and be sure to note pics of the GRAND CANYON hauling NYC "FLEXI-VANS"!
 
Ahhhh, the nostalgia!
 
Enjoy!
 
"SM"
 
http://coastdaylight.com/sb/san_berdoo_64.html


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 1:23pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #164 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 3:06pm »
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All:
 
Regarding SANTA FE and "FLEXI-VANS", some interesting reading on this page.....
 
"SM"
 
http://www.qstation.org/SFTU_204378/


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 3:06pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #165 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 3:13pm »
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See also:
 
(SF mentioned in several posts)
 
http://railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=67161


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 3:13pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #166 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 4:23pm »
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SM -  
 
Yours, above, 1:22 pm: "TRAIN TIME AT SAN BERNARDINO, 1964-65", another of those "DO NOT MISS THIS!" historic photo pages!  
 
It is a most valued view of scenes from near five decades back! Among other things: We do have confirmation of early FLEXI-VAN use by  
A T S F. With some thought on "A T & S F SHOPS" in the background, and considering all the other photos, likely this at Barstow, CA.  
(Tho a similar structure at Topeka, KS.) (Your writer has not visited either site.)
 
For Operations, Dispatch and "Power Desk" types, the A T S F practice of moving extra power between domiciles. Explains the trains  
with six units!
 
Finally, from my tiresome sermons: Do all know by now when U S MAIL and the REA EXPRESS off the trains, there was no future? May  
we suspect this a classic, "You can't unring the bell"! Once this water under the bridge, it won't come back...
 
......................Vern................


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #167 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 4:59pm »
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Vern.....
 
As I related in our earlier phone discussion, yours truly was indeed quite suprised (and most pleased!) to come across this aforementioned page, showing a NYC "FLEXI-VAN" on the GRAND CANYON!
 
Diligent research DOES have its rewards, at times!<G>
 
Agreed.....
 
Once most of the mail was yanked from the rails in the late 60's, the great REA empire also quickly unraveled, and, with virtually no head-end traffic to offset the tremendous losses incurred by passenger operations, it was impossible that these trains could survive, especially those that carried far more mail and express than they did passengers.
 
Aaaah, progress.....
 
"SM"


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #168 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 6:51pm »
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All:
 
Listing of SF mail/express trains, as per the April, 1968 OFFICIAL RAILWAY EQUIPMENT REGISTER.
 
Scroll down page to listings for:
 
7R 7/19/67 KC
 
7, 7/28/67/ KCUS
 
7,  7/31/67 KC
 
These trains carried "FLEXI-VAN" equipment (see notation at bottom of page)
 
"SM"
 
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Internet/Consists/07FstMl-60.htm


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George_Harris
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Posts: 3804
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #169 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 6:58pm »
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Vern, et al:
 
Concerning mail, express, etc.  
 
In the 1964 to 1966 time frame I was a regular passenger on the Tennessean between Memphis and East Tennessee.  The norm on Sunday night out of Memphis was three head end cars, one of them a RPO, two coaches, one Pullman.  The Pullman dissapeard during this time frame.  All other nights, there could be upwards of 10 head end cars plus anywhere from 4 to 10 piggyback flats on the back end.  In its last years the train looked like a freight train with a couple of coaches cut into the middle.  
 
The piggyback flats were cut off for the train to back into Chattanooga station.  Sometimes there were no piggbacks east of there, sometimes fewer.  I was told once that most of the pigs went to Atlanta, whether in a freight train, or on the back of the Ponce de Leon, I do not know.  
 
There was one weekday night when the train stalled out going up Raccoon Mountain.  If I can remember this long removed from the event, they had 13 piggyback flats on the back.  The being on the L&N track between Bridgeport and Wauhatchie, the train ended up being pushed to the top of the grade by the engines off a following L&N freight.  
 
Other than the Southerner, Crescent, Royal Palm, it appears that all Southern passenger trains carried piggyback during this period, if not every night and full route, for most nights and part of the routes.  


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 6:59pm by George_Harris » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #170 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 7:40pm »
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When I was at Charlottesville, VA at the Army JAG School in 1974 (February-April), there were three Southern and one Amtrak train through town. Separate stations, though i think they tracks crossed by the SOuthern station and the Amraker may have stopped to let off and pick up trnsferring passengers from the Crescent. Would sure hate to have much money riding on that 38 year old memory....
 
One of the tains was the Crescent, and it was passenger equipment only, and runabsolutely first class,and almost always very much on thge advertised.
 
The other two were an un-named train - could it have been #7&8? - that I ecall as having a baggage/express and a chair car and a number of TOFC flats (20 or 25, perhaps). How far south/west it ran out of Charlottesville I no longr recall. A very Spartan train, but it came though at an hour that allowed me to catch it on a Saturday morning and ride to Wasington if i wanted to visit the ANtion's Capial. And could come back Sunady evening n the Crecent. The rekaining train was the stub of the Piedmont and it carried more passengere cars, possibly inlcuding a sleeper or two an some srt offod service - it wan't timed right for me to catch it to or frm anyplace i cared to go. It also had a string of TOFCs following the varnish. I likely have a fewslides - some where....
 
Guess i ought to find my Southern RR timetable from the period and see what it says, might be helpful.
 
 
Back to the Santa Fe and the Texas Chief, I can't recall ever seeing it with the U28CGs or the other GE units (the cowl units, U30CGs), though I know they were assigned to the Texas Chief on occasion and I've seen pictures.


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 7:50pm by ClydeDET » Logged
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3804
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #171 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 9:37pm »
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Clyde, that one I can help you with.
 
I think you are right about the numbers 7 & 8.  This was the remnant of the Birmingham Special.  It was a piggyback train with one coach.  One diesel unit and one coach came out of Washington, stopped in Alexandria, and then pulled down to Southern's yard - maybe piggyback only yard -  and had a few more diesels put on the front and a full train of piggyback units and a caboose put on the back.  I rode it to Lynchburg once and completed my trip courtesy of Trailways.  The coach was not cut out at Lynchburg, just closed off.  It was carried on down to the next point where any switching was done, and cut out to be put in the equivalent northbound.  
 
The Piedmont had no sleepers, but it did have a food car of some sort.  I never rode it.  It functioned as a Washington to Atlanta day train.  The leaving time out of DC made for a connection with the first morning Metroliner out of NYC.  The northbound left Atlanta at 7:00am.  It connected with nothing on that end because there were no trains left for it to connect with.  
 
I came through Charlottesville once on the JWR or whichever it was at that time.  It did stop at the Southern station and then went on to the C&O's Main Street (is that the right name?) Station where the dome was cut out.  
 
While you were in Charlottesville in JAG school, I was working in Washington DC, first for a contractor and then for DeLeuw Cather, who was the GEC (General Engineering Consultant) for WMATA.  This was the period of get married, buy house in Arlington VA, and have first baby.  By 74, and on to 78 I was with DeLeuw, but in 72-73, I was on the job site at what was to be WMATA's major repair yard, and a vastly shrunken Washington Terminal Company coach yard.  WMATA's yard occupies much of what had been their coach yard.   On one occasion I snagged a ride in the cab of Southern's E8's off the Crescent up to the yard.  Having a contractor's hard hat didn't hurt me getting it.  (By now all others involved in this are long gone from employment and probably from this planet as well, otherwise this would not be told.)  
 
It was a beautiful sight to see the Crescent's equipment being pulled into the yard in the morning by the Terminal company switch engines and be turned on the wye.


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #172 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 9:50pm »
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All:
 
You've provided a wealth of information, and your time and effort is greatly appreciated by one and all participating in this interesting discussion.....thank you!
 
TOFC's in passenger trains today seems so quaint and nostalgic a concept, something only us "old timers" can casually reminisce about, a relic of the "Classic Era" of American rail travel.
 
In my home state of NJ, TOFC's and REA containers on flats were commonplace on E-L rails back in the 60's; a number of through trains carried considerable head-end traffic, including the aforemtioned TOFC's/containers.
 
There are a few pics in Larry De Young's "ERIE LACKAWANNA IN COLOR VOLUME 4: THE EARLY YEARS", showing some of these trains.
 
One of these trains was #8, the PACIFIC EXPRESS, frequently carried NADX-steam- and signal-line equipped TOFC flatcars, carrying REA express trailers and/or containers.
 
This train was also diagrammed to carry coaches, a diner, and a Chicago-Meadville sleeper (this was usually a UP "AMERICAN" series car.
 
Getting "back on track" to the SANTA FE, this type of head-end traffic (FLEXI-VANS, containers, etc.) is easily a fascinating topic unto itself.
 
Too, trains like the PHOEBE SNOW and the LAKE CITIES could also be seen hauling SF express cars in their consists, back in the 60's.
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 9:53pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #173 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 10:03pm »
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Unidentified E-L through trains, with TOFC's in the consist, early/mid-60's......
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/loco/el827ajh.jpg
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/el-pax-trn-bt.jpg
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/el-yard5.jpg


« Last Edit: Mar 20th, 2012, 1:19am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #174 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 10:41pm »
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REA express car; note "SANTA FE" lettering......
 
http://canadasouthern.com/caso/non-nyc/images/rex-4098.jpg


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 10:43pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #175 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:02pm »
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No info on this photo, except that it was taken at Los Angeles (1960's).
 
This an REX "Unit-Haul" car............
 
http://lariverrailroads.com/passcar/rex3411.jpg


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:02pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1724
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #176 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:44pm »
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on Mar 19th, 2012, 1:22pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
"TRAIN TIME AT SAN BERNARDINO, 1964-65", another of those "DO NOT MISS THIS!" historic photo pages!
 
LENGHTY SF and UP consists, and be sure to note pics of the GRAND CANYON hauling NYC "FLEXI-VANS"!
 
Ahhhh, the nostalgia!
 
Enjoy!
 
"SM"
 
http://coastdaylight.com/sb/san_berdoo_64.html

 
Oh, my goodness, SM,
 
To me, this is a blast of nostalgia right to the solar plexus.  At the time these photos were taken, I was a junior-high kid living in a town about thirty miles west of "San Berdoo," close enough that I made many trips to these very platforms.  In other words, the subject matter in these shots is living (and still very vivid) memory to me.
 
Thankful regards,
 
Norm
 
 
P.S. - - an aside about the Mail Vans - - I remember seeing them in Barstow on the San Francisco Chief.  And I was intrigued by the photos you posted, intrigued that both containers and flatcar are clearly labeled SANTA FE.  And, unless my eyes deceive me, I believe those are beefy six-wheel trucks under the flatcar?  It's clear they didn't scrounge around for a few old Trailer Train cars that nobody else was using . . .  As special as they were, though, I can't force myself to imagine they ever showed up on the Super Chief/El Capitan.  I think a guy might pay with his job for a decision like that.


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:53pm by Norm_Anderson » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #177 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:44pm »
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Detailed page on the FLEXI-VAN; note mention of SANTA FE.....
 
http://rrmodelcraftsman.com/reviews/cm_extra_walthers_flexivan.php


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:48pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #178 on: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:57pm »
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Norm.....
 
Once again, you are most welcome, and I'm really pleased that these old photos had a "personal" connection for you.....now you know how I feel when I see old photos of the E-L and the CNJ!
 
As I had mentioned earlier, I had not the slightest inkling that NYC "FLEXI-VANS" ever operated in a SF passenger consist.....sure made my day a little bit more interesting!<G>
 
Wonderful old photos like these indeed highlight the rich diversity of passenger operations once so commonplace, the likes of which, sadly, we'll never see again!
 
Again, am glad you've been enjoying this topic, which, to be perfectly honest, I had no idea would become so "hot"!
 
Regards in return,
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Mar 19th, 2012, 11:58pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Who Killed The SUPER CHIEF?"
 
« Reply #179 on: Mar 20th, 2012, 12:10am »
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Ok, folks!
 
Can you stand still another dose of SANTA FE nostalgia from the 60's......in LIVING COLOR?<G>
 
Just came across this outstanding collection of 1960's photos; include are multiple shots at Dearborn Station!
 
Anybody know where I can borrow Mr. Peabody's "Wayback Machine"?
 
Enjoy!
 
"SM"
 
http://www.bcoolidge.com/Trains%20ATSF%20Page.htm


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