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"Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
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   Author  Topic: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish  (Read 1200 times)
TAB
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Posts: 1908
Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #20 on: Dec 18th, 2011, 6:55pm »
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Hi Silver Meteor.....I know I had heard that, from the CNJ's Terminal at Jersey City NJ, through Pullmans could be boarded for distant points, far flung from the CNJ's territory.  
 
Today I found this item from The Lawrence Scripps Wilkinson Foundation's web site. (http://www.wilkinsontrains.com/traindisp.cfm?train_id=354) referencing the Florida East Coast Railway's, all-Pullman "New York and Florida Special".
 
Excerpt in italics is below:
 
In January, 1888 one of the two original 70 passenger, 6-car, electrically lighted vestibuled all-Pullman trainsets departed from Jersey City, New Jersey, at 9:30 a.m. every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday during the Winter season.
 
I wonder which terminal in Jersey City was used....It didn't say. Facinating! .......Tom


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #21 on: Dec 18th, 2011, 10:14pm »
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Hi, Tom......
 
Did a little quick research, and I was able to glean the following from an old thread elsewhere here, dealing with JC-NO Pullman service, via the CNJ.
 
The following info comes from members far more knowledgeable than I, I might add.
 
This interesting service did not last long, being gone by 1940.
 
The equipment was a PULLMAN-owned car (12 Sec-DR); car was handled by the B&O (via Cincinnati, North Vernon, and Louisville, and the IC between Louisville and New Orleans).
 
The Feb 1938 "GUIDE" had #3 (the "DIPLOMAT") taking Pullman west to North Vernon, and, eastbound, the move was handled by #24 (the "WEST VIRGINIAN") to Cumberland, and #10 (the "SHENANDOAH") to Jersey City (CNJ)
 
In 1939, however, the westbound "WEST VIRGINIAN" took car as far as Cincinnati, and no-name train (#63) from there to Louisville, with the "DIPLOMAT" taking it back east to Jersey City (CNJ) from North Vernon....
 
"SM"
 
BTW............
 
I'm going to hazard a guess on your inquiry about the "NEW YORK & FLORIDA SPECIAL".
 
Doing a bit more research, I've found that the PRR was operating electrically-lit Pullmans by the late 1880's; the "PENNSYLVANIA LIMITED" was the first "de luxe" train to have electric lights. * (source: THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD: A PICTORAL HISTORY", by Edwin P. Alexander)
 
So (again, I'm only taking a guess), the train you mentioned MIGHT have been using the PRR terminal at Exchange Place (Jersey City).......


« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2011, 12:56am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #22 on: Dec 18th, 2011, 11:29pm »
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Excellent page on "THE NEW ROYAL PALM" (3/51).
 
Railroads involved were the NYC/SOUTHERN/FEC.
 
Inbound cars were picked up from Buffalo, Cleveland, Chicago, and Detroit, via various overnight NYC overnights at Cincinnati......
 
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/newroyalpalm195103.html


« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2011, 12:17am by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
George_Harris
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Posts: 3814
Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #23 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 2:15am »
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on Dec 18th, 2011, 11:29pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Excellent page on "THE NEW ROYAL PALM" (3/51).
 
Railroads involved were the NYC/SOUTHERN/FEC.
 
Inbound cars were picked up from Buffalo, Cleveland, Chicago, and Detroit, via various overnight NYC overnights at Cincinnati......
 
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track2/newroyalpalm195103.html

With a daylight schedule through the hills and mountains of Eastern Kentucky and Tennessee, this train would have been a prime candidate for an Eastern US dome car, clearances permitting.  Unfortunately, they did not.  This line was called the "Rathole" for good reason.  By the time clearaces did permit, in 1961, Southern Railway had so completely given up on passenger service, they did not even speed up the schedule in consideration of the improved run times made possible by the line changes made as part of the clearance and grade improvements, much less consider getting dome cars.


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #24 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 10:06am »
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George......
 
A good post, and some interesting thoughts!
 
You are quite right......this would have been ideal for a daylight run an an Eastern dome car, had the clearances been right.
 
Recall, the "low domes" operated by the B&O, which could fit under the PRR catenary at DC (as you surely know, passengers were not allowed to occupy the dome when the car was under wire).
 
The many scenic splendors along the former DL&W, likewise, would have been ideal viewing by dome passengers, had such equipment been used by the railroad.
 
Getting back to trains serving the "Southland".....
 
As I stated earlier, this is indeed a fascinating subject, unto itself.......through the 60's, there was a fine stable of sleek thoroughbreds still carrying winter-weary folks to the sunny South, doing so in style and class.
 
Just the many routings alone is quite interesting, by itself......
 
"SM"


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #25 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 10:15am »
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Links on the left side of this page takes you to photos, TT's, etc. for the ACL/SEABOARD/FEC/SOUTHERN.......
 
http://www.getcruising.com/rails


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #26 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 10:22am »
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Here's a few good pages on SEABOARD......
 
http://webpages.charter.net/suzuya/Seaboard.html


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George_Harris
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #27 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 2:26pm »
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While the Florida "Fast three", City of Miami, South Wind, Dixie Flagler, were well known, there were several possibilities that had late evening departures from Chicag with early second morning arrivals in Jacksonville.  these lasted up until the early to mid 1960's, although with declining amenities, and a couple of changes of trains.  
 
Off the top of my head these were:
The best in quality was the Royal Palm, Chicago-Cincinatti-Atlanta-Jacksonville.  New York Central and Southern
The Dixie Flyer, Chicago-Evansville-Nashville-Atlanta-Jacksonville,the remnant of a great train, C&EI, L&N, NC&StL, ACL
The Southland, a through train to Tampa from Cincinatti, but with a connection to the Dixie Flyer at Atlanta for Jacksonville and Miami, Pennsylvania?, L&N, CofG, ACL.
 
For mid afternoon out of Chicago with an evening arrival at Jacksonville, there was the through Seminole on the City of Miami route, ICRR Chicagot to Birmingham, then CofG, ACL.  
You could also take the Humming Bird out of Chicago adn change to an unnamed ACL local at Montgomery AL.  Leaving at the same time from Chicago, you could take the Georgian to Atlanta and get an ACL or Southern train out of Atlanta to Jacksonville.
Leaving somewhat eariler from Chicago, you could go to Cincinatti and catch either an L&N or a Southern overnight train to Atlanta/Jacksonville from there.
 
Thus, you could make multiple trips between Chicago adn Florida before youhad to repeat a route.


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #28 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 2:41pm »
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George:
 
VERY interesting, to say the least!
 
Your latest posting also recalls an era when multiple routings were possible; a time when multi-track main lines abounded, and dispatching was fine-tuned to the umpteenth degree.
 
Just think of how many of those old routings have now been obliterated forever, with the ripping out of so many double and multi-tracked lines, over the course of the past four decades.
 
SEABOARD and ACL certainly knew how to put on a "first class show", back in the day......
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2011, 2:42pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #29 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 2:48pm »
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Small but interesting photo gallery on ACL passenger equipment.....
 
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/rslist.aspx?id=ACL&cid=7


« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2011, 2:50pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #30 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 2:57pm »
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#741, the last surviving E-L diner, was originally a PULLMAN-assigned car to the ACL, built by Pullman in 1925 (as #7).
 
Fascinating history of a very rare piece of transportation history.....
 
http://www.eldcps.org/pages/equip_741.html


« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2011, 2:59pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
Henry
Historian
Posts: 6100
Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #31 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 3:48pm »
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on Dec 19th, 2011, 2:57pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
#741, the last surviving E-L diner, was originally a PULLMAN-assigned car to the ACL, built by Pullman in 1925 (as #7).
 
Fascinating history of a very rare piece of transportation history.....
 
http://www.eldcps.org/pages/equip_741.html

 
741 isn't the last surviving EL diner. The ELDCPS also has EL ex-DL&W Phoebe Snow diners 769 and 770. EL diner 746 is in South Carolina and 747 may also still exist. Both were formerly assigned to the ACL and part of Pullman's 1925 Lot #4916 with floor plan 3952. IC was assigned five of the 14 diners in Lot #4916 and ACL was assigned the other nine.
 
Henry (ELDCPS Life Member)


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #32 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 4:52pm »
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on Dec 19th, 2011, 3:48pm, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
741 isn't the last surviving EL diner. The ELDCPS also has EL ex-DL&W Phoebe Snow diners 769 and 770. EL diner 746 is in South Carolina and 747 may also still exist. Both were formerly assigned to the ACL and part of Pullman's 1925 Lot #4916 with floor plan 3952. IC was assigned five of the 14 diners in Lot #4916 and ACL was assigned the other nine.
 
Henry (ELDCPS Life Member)
 

 
Henry......
 
This is VERY GOOD NEWS, indeed!
 
I had NO idea that several other ex-DL&W diners were still in existence, especially since diner service on the E-L expired in 1970, when the last long-haul train ("THE LAKE CITIES") operated between Hoboken and Chicago.....again, this is MOST welcome news!
 
Appreciate the info!
 
"SM"


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #33 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 5:00pm »
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Henry.....
 
While we are briefly on the subject of of E-L diners, here are a few old views I think you'll enjoy....
 
"SM"
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/el-d770ae.jpg
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/el-di742ajh.jpg
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/el/pax/el-di747ajh.jpg


« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2011, 5:02pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #34 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 5:07pm »
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SCL diners at Alexandria, W.V, and Florence, SC, 1969-71.....
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/scl/scl-d5708dca.jpg
 
http://rr-fallenflags.org/scl/scl-d5915dca.jpg


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #35 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 5:11pm »
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Thankfully preserved today is ex-SAL Parlor-Tavern #6300......
 
http://gcrm.org/sal6300.aspx


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #36 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 5:18pm »
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Excellent collection of photos (and diagrams) of SOUTHERN passenger/business cars......
 
http://southern.railfan.net/images/archive/southern/passenger/passenger.html


« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2011, 5:19pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
George_Harris
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Posts: 3814
Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #37 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 5:26pm »
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on Dec 19th, 2011, 2:41pm, SILVER METEOR 158-58 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Your latest posting also recalls an era when multiple routings were possible; a time when multi-track main lines abounded, and dispatching was fine-tuned to the umpteenth degree.
 
Just think of how many of those old routings have now been obliterated forever, with the ripping out of so many double and multi-tracked lines, over the course of the past four decades.

So far as I know, the Dixie Flagler / Dixie Flyer route is the only one still in place in its entirity, and it is so congested that it would be absolutely hopeless to try to reproduce the schedules of the 50's.  The Southern and L&N routes from Cincinatti to the south are still all in place to the best of my knowledge, and the Southern route at least should be capable of the best times of the 1950's. However, the connecting lines between Cincinatti and Chicago are completely scrambled and slow, witness the pathetic speeds of the Cardinal between these points.  Schedules originating on the ICRR lines out of Chicago are gone forever.  South of Fulton KY, the lines are at best secondary lines where they are not gone completely. North of Fulton KY the formerly mostly double track and partly 100 mph line is a maximum 79 mph single track line.


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SILVER METEOR 158-58
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Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #38 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 6:57pm »
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George.....
 
Again, greatly appreciate your providing some truly interesting info!
 
Interesting to learn that at least so me of the old "thoroughbred racetracks" are still intact; however, it does come as no surprise that so much has been changed forever, and not for the better.
 
From what I've been hearing the past several years, AMTRAK ("SILVER METEOR"/"SILVER STAR") has had many problems with sharing the rails with freights in the "deep south", due to "redundant" trackage having been removed long ago.
 
All it takes is one breakdown or derailment, and the whole shebang grinds to a screeching halt.
 
Certainly......NOT a way to run a railroad!
 
"SM"


« Last Edit: Dec 19th, 2011, 6:57pm by NH_FL9_2017 » Logged
SILVER METEOR 158-58
Former Member
Re: "Passengers To The Palms": Southland Varnish
 
« Reply #39 on: Dec 19th, 2011, 7:12pm »
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George/All:
 
The following might be of some interest......
 
http://browardnetonline.com/2010/05/amtrak-inspecting-fec-railway-for-passenger-rail/
 
http://www.sfeccstudy.com/


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