Railfan.net Home Railfan Photos ABPR Archives Staff Safari Photos Railfan Links

Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please Sign In or Register. Jun 24th, 2017, 10:16am
Categories •  FastIndex •  LongIndex •  Help •  Search •  Members  •  Sign In •  Register


Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
   Railfan.net Web Forums
   Varnish
   Passenger Trains
(Moderator: coaster)
   Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2 3  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint
   Author  Topic: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed  (Read 1090 times)
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4785
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #40 on: Jul 4th, 2007, 4:23pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Depends on the jet. I've seen shots taken from RF-8s and RF-101s at just short of Mach One - and around 100 feet above ground level. Glad i wasn't trying to drive 9or having to ride in) those birds...

Logged
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3803
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #41 on: Aug 14th, 2007, 6:33pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

And for those that care about the ridership issues:  The following is from the International Railway Journal:
 
Quote:
Taiwan's Civil Aeronautics Administration (CAA) says that the opening of the 345 km Taipei - Kaohsiung high-speed line has caused a rapid decline in the number of air passengers on domestic routes.  According to the CAA, passenger numbers o Taipei - Kaohsiung fell 24% year-on-year in February and 48% year-on-year in June.  Taiwan High Speed Rail Corporation  (THSRC) begaon operating the line with 19 return services per day, but was due to increase this to 37 train pairs at the end of July.

 
At one time this route had a flight about every 15 minutes from about 7:00am to 9:00pm.  It had dropped some even before the railway was opened due to completion of a second limited access highway between the two cities.  There are other airline services not mentioned that were probably similarly affected or possibly more so:  Taipei - Taichung and Taipei - Tainan, and Taipei - Chaiyi.  Catching a plane in Taiwan has few of the hassles currently prevailing in the US.  You do go through a metal detector, but that is about it.  No take off your shoes, etc.  No two hour waits, either.  There is a 30 minute minimum check in rule, but if the plane is not full, that has been known to be ignored.  
 
Because of some completely unfounded allegations of lack of safety in the press there, there were quite a few people that avoided the hgih speed trains early on, but that issue must be going away by now.  
 
George


Logged
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4785
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #42 on: Aug 15th, 2007, 10:06am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Cannot imagine that true HS rail would not just hammer airlines for segments up to 300-400 miles.  Just be so much more convenient and just as fast, origin point to destination instead of just terminal to terminal times. And maybe, in a lot of areas, terminal to terminal.

Logged
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3803
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #43 on: Mar 27th, 2016, 12:29am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Yes, I am dredging up a very old thread.  Despite the title this thread devolved into a good bit of discussion on the Taiwan HSR.  Much of that my fault.  The line has now been open a little over 9 years.  For your education and enlightenment, if you have 90 minutes to spare, the following gives you a cab ride from end to end.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytAKrltE5iE
 
Gives me a certain amount of homesickness.  
 
If health and finances permit I intend to go for the 10th anniversary of the opening.  By now,both seem a little iffy.
 
As to the California HSR, I am no longer involved except in the most minimal way.


Logged
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4785
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #44 on: Mar 27th, 2016, 2:26pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Mar 27th, 2016, 12:29am, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Yes, I am dredging up a very old thread.  Despite the title this thread devolved into a good bit of discussion on the Taiwan HSR.  Much of that my fault.  The line has now been open a little over 9 years.  For your education and enlightenment, if you have 90 minutes to spare, the following gives you a cab ride from end to end.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytAKrltE5iE
 
Gives me a certain amount of homesickness.  
 
If health and finances permit I intend to go for the 10th anniversary of the opening.  By now,both seem a little iffy.
 
As to the California HSR, I am no longer involved except in the most minimal way.

 
Retired, did you? Still living in San Francisco?


Logged
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3803
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #45 on: Mar 27th, 2016, 10:27pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Quote:
Yes, I am dredging up a very old thread.  Despite the title this thread devolved into a good bit of discussion on the Taiwan HSR.  Much of that my fault.  The line has now been open a little over 9 years.  For your education and enlightenment, if you have 90 minutes to spare, the following gives you a cab ride from end to end.  
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytAKrltE5iE  
 
Gives me a certain amount of homesickness.    
 
If health and finances permit I intend to go for the 10th anniversary of the opening.  By now,both seem a little iffy.  
 
As to the California HSR, I am no longer involved except in the most minimal way.

 
on Mar 27th, 2016, 2:26pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Retired, did you? Still living in San Francisco?

Not fully retired.  Now on a "part time" status, probably for a few months, maybe a year or a little more, who knows.  
 
Definitely NOT in San Francisco.  Now back in Olive Branch MS, that is back in a place that is part of the rational civilized part of the country.


« Last Edit: Mar 27th, 2016, 10:28pm by George_Harris » Logged
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4785
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #46 on: Mar 28th, 2016, 2:01pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Mar 27th, 2016, 10:27pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Not fully retired.  Now on a "part time" status, probably for a few months, maybe a year or a little more, who knows.  
 
Definitely NOT in San Francisco.  Now back in Olive Branch MS, that is back in a place that is part of the rational civilized part of the country.

 
Olive Branch, MS, eh? Looks to be up near Memphis, so not an area we are terribly familiar with. Been through Memphis a few times on the way to or from elsewhere, but that is about it. I wouldn't think it was likely to be a bad place to settle.
 
Saw a story on the Kali HST project in the news this AM, apparently proposal to alter the initial phase a bit.


Logged
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3803
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #47 on: Mar 28th, 2016, 11:15pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Mar 28th, 2016, 2:01pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Olive Branch, MS, eh? Looks to be up near Memphis, so not an area we are terribly familiar with. Been through Memphis a few times on the way to or from elsewhere, but that is about it. I wouldn't think it was likely to be a bad place to settle.
 
Saw a story on the Kali HST project in the news this AM, apparently proposal to alter the initial phase a bit.

Clyde:
Yep, just outside of Memphis.  Along US 78 and the Frisco main line Memphis to Birmingham.  (Oops, now BNSF, but still a very busy piece of railroad.)  OB was a small town with a goodly gap between it and  Memphis when we moved here in 1952, but by now it is part of the Memphis sprawl.  
 
Comment about a major why behind the death of passenger service:  In the 50's and early 60's there were two trains between Memphis and B'ham, the faster one 6 hours, the slower one 8.  You can drive it in 4 hours now without breaking a sweat.  If passenger service were to be reinstated, it could not be any faster than it was in the 1950's.  
i
As to the Calif HSR:  Did not see the article you mentioned, but which way to go from the Central Valley first has always been contentious.   Guess they are now talking about going to SF first.  Always seemed to make more sense to go south to LA first, as currently the trains end at Bakersfield now, and to go south on the existing line would be extremely slow even if they could find the slots between freights to run them.  Going north first would be easier to construct.


Logged
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3803
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #48 on: Mar 28th, 2016, 11:33pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Way back to the original question:  Of the standard high speed train sets, the Shinkansen concept is so far ahead of the others it is a slam dunk conclusion.
 
First, with the coach width, 11'-1", it is over a foot wider than the others, so that the 3-2 seating in their coaches gives as much room per seat as 2-2 seating does on the others.  (American standard passenger cars are 10 feet wide.)  Therefore, you have a significantly larger capacity within a given train length than any other single level equipment and about the same passenger capacity per car as bi-level equipment.
 
The additional width also means much less dead load per passenger.
 
50 years plus of operation of the Shinkansen concept means there has been a lot of study of the most minute of details, thus the current generation of Shinkansen trains are far ahead of the first generation train sets.
 
Use of the EMU concept, that is all axles powered except the ends, means more reliable acceleration and better traction at high speeds.
 
Less dead weight per passenger means lower energy consumption per passenger, particularly in acceleration.
 
Much better aerodynamics than any other train set also means less energy consumption per passenger at high speeds.
 
Reliability concerns on the most heavily trafficed high speed lines on the planet has led to extremely reliable equipment.


Logged
ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4785
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #49 on: Mar 30th, 2016, 1:16pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Mar 28th, 2016, 11:33pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Way back to the original question:  Of the standard high speed train sets, the Shinkansen concept is so far ahead of the others it is a slam dunk conclusion.
 
First, with the coach width, 11'-1", it is over a foot wider than the others, so that the 3-2 seating in their coaches gives as much room per seat as 2-2 seating does on the others.  (American standard passenger cars are 10 feet wide.)  Therefore, you have a significantly larger capacity within a given train length than any other single level equipment and about the same passenger capacity per car as bi-level equipment.
 
The additional width also means much less dead load per passenger.
 
50 years plus of operation of the Shinkansen concept means there has been a lot of study of the most minute of details, thus the current generation of Shinkansen trains are far ahead of the first generation train sets.
 
Use of the EMU concept, that is all axles powered except the ends, means more reliable acceleration and better traction at high speeds.
 
Less dead weight per passenger means lower energy consumption per passenger, particularly in acceleration.
 
Much better aerodynamics than any other train set also means less energy consumption per passenger at high speeds.
 
Reliability concerns on the most heavily trafficed high speed lines on the planet has led to extremely reliable equipment.

 
The Japanese certainly do seem to maintain very high reliability and time-keeping. At the cost of meticulous maintenance schedules, much like a GOOD airline, I would say. including track.  Which I do NOT think is a bad thing (I look back on the sort of track maintenance we once took for granted on the better railroads and think "now why did we ever slack off on that?").
 
Have a book somewhere on the genesis and initial fielding of the Shinkansen - title something like OLD MISTER THUNDER. Apparently took an obsessive  founder and the over-coming of a fair amount of resistance to get it done. Pity we didn't do the same in the same time frame, eh?


Logged
Les_Shepherd
Historian
Posts: 424
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #50 on: Apr 2nd, 2016, 9:04am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

I just ran the Taiwan video. Very interesting to me but I think many would become bored. I love the technical details on the screen. It looks as though it is a recording of a screen in the drivers console.  
 
I have an excellent disc of a cab ride on Eurostar between Brussels & London. This has been carefully edited to ensure continuing interest. It also explains the lineside markers and much of the activity of the driver, particularly the several adjustments to the pantograph configurations.
 
I find comparing the various HS equipment not very instructive. They all mostly have max speeds of 300kph. TGV; its commercial arm Thalys and Eurostar equipment are largely the same technically. With all of their reputation, the German ICE equipment can sometimes fail. Last year I was on an ICE3 set between Koln and Brussels. After leaving the last station in Germany; Aachen; we came to lengthy halt after some slow running. I suspect that there was a problem with change of voltage between the 2 countries.
 
Unless you have a dedicated line for HS operations these trains will only run at slightly faster speeds than standard equipment. In Germany I noticed this between Koln and Frankfurt. It was particularly noticeable last year on a journey between Munich and Berlin. The route was via Bamburg and Jeda. There were several hours of sub100kph running. I enjoyed it immensely. I have been told that I was lucky as they were soon to open a high speed line around this section.
 
It takes time for passengers to move to new HS services. It has taken Eurostar 10 years to become profitable. This despite a journey time of 2 hours between London and Paris clearly beating any airline on city to city services. Initially the airlines reduced fares to compete but quicker travel times in the end won. The same would happen in both our countries. There has been regular talk of HS between Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne. As the Sydney-Melbourne air route is the 3rd busiest in the world it should be a success. Similar issues face the several possible routes in North America.


« Last Edit: Apr 2nd, 2016, 9:07am by Les_Shepherd » Logged

ClydeDET
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4785
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #51 on: Apr 2nd, 2016, 1:55pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Les, All - We keep seeing things abut Texas Triangle which would cover Dallas-Fort Worth/Houston/San Antonio/Austin/Fort Worth-Dallas. Should (especially D-FW/Houston) whup the airlines and (except for having to find a car at the end for running around) cars.  Never seems to happen except on paper, though. BIG push back on R-O-W acquisition (funded, I strongly suspect, by the airlines, especially SWA).
 
Would pretty well have to be new, though along current R-O-W of either UP or BNSF would work, but simply could not share track and get real high speed as we recognize.
 
Fort Worth to Dallas, city center to city center, is around 25-30 miles. Dallas to Houston about 250-260. Houston to San Antonio is about 200 miles. San Antonio-Austin about 190 miles. Ought to be really able to do well against all competition. But would seriously need to be phased, I think, instead of trying to do the whole triangle in one fell swoop. The politicians who infest Austin would probably push pretty hard to be early beneficiaries, but would be VERY reluctant to do any paying (or helping much on R-O-W). Talk out of one side of their mouths and take SWA money with the hand behind their back.


Logged
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3803
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #52 on: Apr 2nd, 2016, 11:24pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Clyde:
 
Most definitely try to do one leg first.  Gotta walk before you run.  That being not really true as most kids seem to start off running as quick as possible.  
 
I have always thought that Houston - Dallas with onward to Ft. Worth but not necessarily at high speeds would be the first way to go.  
 
And while we are talking about it:  The most logical route always seemed to me to be the Burlington-Rock Island between Houston and Corsicana and the SP from there into Dallas.  Both are fairly straight with long tangents between curves and a  relatively short connection in Corsicana would be required.  Also, both UP and BNSF have reasonable through routes.  The BRI line has never been very busy, and since  BNSF has a very good, and generally in better condition parallel line in the former AT&SF line they might be willing to part with it, depending upon what if any local business there was.  Yes, there would be some modification of curves required to get the speed consistently high.  After all once you get fast, you DO NOT want to slow down except to make stops.  Most of these places are out in fairly open country so it should not be as difficult as could otherwise be, particularly when compared with trying to put in an entirely new route.
 
Once that line is in place the convenience would be such that people would be screaming for the other two sides of the triangle.


« Last Edit: Apr 2nd, 2016, 11:27pm by George_Harris » Logged
CHESSIEMIKE
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 4295
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #53 on: Apr 3rd, 2016, 7:36am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Mar 30th, 2016, 1:16pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Have a book somewhere on the genesis and initial fielding of the Shinkansen - title something like OLD MISTER THUNDER. Apparently took an obsessive  founder and the over-coming of a fair amount of resistance to get it done. Pity we didn't do the same in the same time frame, eh?
Clyde,
The book is OLD MAN THUNDER, Father of the Bullet Train by Bill Hosokawa (ISBN 0-9659580-0-0). I found it a very interesting read and does give a good part of the back story and early history of the Shinkansen System. It also covers the life and times of Shinji Sogo, AKA Old Man Thunder. Read the book to understand how he got that nick name.
CHESSIEMIKE


Logged


Remember that a lone amateur built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3433
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« Reply #54 on: Apr 3rd, 2016, 8:25am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Clyde - Parties Of Record - Lodge Members -  
 
All right! Maybe late to this, tho have followed the thread with much interest. The "Texas Triangle" routings approximate distances on the NEC.  
Also, recall the strong opposition to Miami - Orlando projects...
 
The unadulterated competitive realities being, among other things, strategies of air carrier, SWA. The pure genius of its strategy with the "...all  
737s, all the time...". By now, it is an over forty years back design. SWA apparently also the force behind Boeing work it also effective on 'trans-
con' stage lengths, too. It is also most effective on shorter 'stage length' schedules, especially if deployed and dispatched effectively so the  
aircraft is busy all day.
 
Misc 737 Note. It was several seasons back (on a Thanksgiving Day, IIRC) when SWA rolled out a 'long haul' 737, and did a test run, Oakland,  
CA - Baltimore. Earlier, the design did not have the range. SWA nows runs several daily on the route. FWIW.
 
IMHO, that's the landscape. Your writer just the messenger here, folks...
 
..............................Vern........................


Logged

Ticket Agent serving...Pacific Stage Lines...Washington State System...Mt. Hood Stages...Pickwick Stages...Transcontinental & Western Air Lines.... Admitted Gold Bug..... Observant Orthodox Mossback..... H.M.R.A.O. Curmudgeons......
Pages: 1 2 3  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint

« Previous topic | Next topic »