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Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
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   Author  Topic: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed  (Read 1065 times)
CNR_1000
TRAINing
Posts: 15
Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High Speed
 
« on: Oct 2nd, 2006, 7:26pm »
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What train do you think is better is it the shinkansen or tgv or ice.
 
Votes:
 
Shinkansen 0
 
TGV 0
 
ICE 0  
 
I don't know how to post pics so i got some videos of the trains to show.
 
Shinkansen
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwLzrZcRr8E&mode=related&search=
 
TGV
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3alZOIQu35o
 
ICE
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4ufdg7VugQ
 
 
I will be updateing this poll often so check in on this topic often.


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CNR 1000 GMD-1 Loco

Canadian National Railway Fan
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3796
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #1 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:54am »
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Since I have a certain amount, a little but not a lot, of insode knowledge, I should probably stay away from this, but I really can't make my self do it.
 
All fo them have the problem of unecessary complexity in many areas.  It seems that the designers and builders asking themselves, are there ways we can do this simpler, easier to make and maintain, more reliably, etc. are not really done for any of these.  
 
The Shinkansen is the oldest in basic design, which cuts both ways.  Many problem areas have been modified over the years, but then many areas where technology has moved on have not changed if the original still is workable, even if better/cheaper is now possible.  Mechanical equipment is spread out among cars so that, even though the trains are made up of individual coaches, you have to run either a full train set or nothing.  Their normal maintenance program appears designed by a bunch of obsessive-compulsives, and probably has three times the labor imput needed.
 
The TGV uses articulated train sets with one truck shared under the ends of 18.7 meter long coaches.  So again, you must either run the full train set or nothing.  When you listen to their operational planners, you are given the impression that these train sets are not really that reliable.  Simply put, they plan on the basis of a system with multiple "escape hatches" so you can pull failed trains out of service with minimal disruption to other trains.  
 
The ICE I know the least about.  However, the Germans are fanatics on smooth track, and build their trains on the basis that they will be run on near perfect track, so ruggedness may be lacking.
 
I would say that if we come to building high speed train sets in the US, lets look at all of them with a skeptical eye, use the good ideas, avoid the bad ones, and simplify the machinery as much as possible.
 
AS to taking a train set "out of the box" and running it in the US:  None of them come anywhere close to US crashworthiness standards.
The Japanese trains are wider than the standard American coaches, and wider than the standard allowed for freight cars, as well.  
The TGV and ICE are both narrower than US coaches, so you have less interior space.


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Pennsy
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #2 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 10:47am »
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Hi All,
 
Well said, George. Some time ago, the ICE train toured the USA and was hauled by two Genesis diesels and a power car for the HEP. From what I heard it ran fairly well in California, the lounge car was exquisite, and all had a good time. No speed limits were tested, just a nice quiet ride. Lots of high muck mucks on board. No idea what was done with the results of the tests.


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VentureForth
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #3 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 10:56am »
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I know we're straying off the orginigal topic a bit here, but I agree with George.  All three have their plusses and minuses.  I can't really comment at all on the TGV or ICE, but I have been on the Shinkansen several times and love it.  One of the reasons it doesn't have the same crashworthiness standard that is required by the FRA is that the Shinkansen runs on very protected trackage.  There are no grade crossings and there are huge fences along much of the ROW.  In general, it's almost impossible to acccidentally trespass onto the Shinkansen tracks.  Not to say it hasn't been done.  There have been a few casualties, including one just about two years ago where someone committed suicide by jumping in front of one train (a rapid express, regular train), and was hurled over the top of the fence where a 500-series Shinkansen hit him, and then finally hit a third time by another Shinkansen travelling the opposite direction.  The damage to the trains were relatively minor.  But this guy wasn't exactly a car or a truck, either.  
 
So, if we were to import a system to the US, I'd assume that it was the Shinkansen with the wider cars.  Of course, we'd drop the capacity by about 30% to accomodate for American size passengers, but the wider cabins are OK - if we were to get a dedicated ROW.
 
I've always thought that the cost to take steel rail technology to 200 MPH would be MUCH cheaper than to invest in maglev right now.  And George is definitely right.  All the technology is SO out there for us to pick and choose our 'dream team' for a good long distance, high speed service.
 
 


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ClydeDET
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #4 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 12:58pm »
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Haven't ridden any of them, so can't comment about which one would be "better" - but will pose an additional question: Better in what way?
 
Better as a transplant to the USA for use in our passenger servcice? Better as compared to one another for the sevice each provides at home? Just what?
 
 
Comments: Assuming we are talking about a transplant  
 
At a guess - any of them would be OK if limited to corridor service, with the ICE probably having more attractions for requiring least modification to suit our conditions. and having the advabtage of not being a set that you have to run the whole set as a unit or nothing. The issue of ruggedness and meeting impact standards is a possible poser, though.
 
It should be noted that US experience has indicated that dedicated sets where a problem with one car means the whole set goes down is not a wonderful idea. And of course - you have to add whole sets to add capacity instead of cutting in an extrra car or five... or run a whole set for a less-patronized run as well.
 
Fact of the matter is - IMO - none of them are probably all that great as they run for transplantation to USA.  Indeed - we have designs available that would meet most of our requirements if we just (still) had plant to produce them. MAjor project to up-grade track and catenary on the East Coast, but that would be required for any operation that is intended to run reliably at higher than current speeds. REALLY major projects to get our long distance trains running at historically established schedules, or to establish new corridors for fast regional trains (TExas Triangle, California Corridor, etc). But existing equipment designs would serve very well indeed for such, at pretty quick speeds at that. After all - sixty or seventy years ago, early EMD E-types (ore ALCO PA-PBs) were capable of running reliably and safely at better than 100 mph for substantial distances, hauling Budd, ACF and P-S cars full of comfortable passengers. Not saying we just need to duplicate those designs, though at least as far as cars are concerned, we could do worse. We have, I think, gotten ahead of an E or a PA in terms of locomotives. Probably the biggest current obstacle is track capacity and condition in most areas.
 
As far as comparing them to each ther, I wonder if any of them would be superior away from home - each is designed to meet particular operating and traffic conditions and move to a different set and probably face problems. All clearly work well under the conditions for which they are designed.
 
Just my thoughts.


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George_Harris
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
  attrainnwujihdep060817.jpg - 183036 Bytes
« Reply #5 on: Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:50pm »
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If you have a dedicated passenger only line, you do not have to meet the FRA crashworthiness standards.  
 
Not sure how much seat enlargement would be necessary on the Shinkansen train sets, because I fit quite comfortably in one of their current design seats, and am somewhere too far above 200 lbs.  On the other hand, there are a lot of people out there that are a lot bigger than I am and after 16 years in Asia, my definitions of large enough and crowded/uncrowded are probably not exactly American normal.  After all, my wife and I, and she is no small thing either, have gotten used to and feel quite normal running around town here on a 150 cc motorscooter - sometimes with the dog on board as well.  OK, we do get some strange looks at times.  
 
Picture is me after ride on test run,  I have now tried the resize.  Picture taken by co-worker and emailed to me.  Taken in workshop building at Wujih (Taichung)



Image exceeds display size of 900 pixels wide. (1433x1075, 183036 bytes)

Click Here to View Image attrainnwujihdep060817.jpg - 183036 Bytes


« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2006, 5:16am by George_Harris » Logged
VentureForth
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Posts: 1158
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #6 on: Oct 6th, 2006, 6:19pm »
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Nice picture, George.
 
Here is a cool video of the latest and greatest N700 series Shinkansen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7P68KEh-y0&NR


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Royal_Palm
Railfan
Posts: 112
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #7 on: Oct 19th, 2006, 4:37pm »
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on Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:50pm, George_Harris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
If you have a dedicated passenger only line, you do not have to meet the FRA crashworthiness standards.  
 
Not sure how much seat enlargement would be necessary on the Shinkansen train sets, because I fit quite comfortably in one of their current design seats, and am somewhere too far above 200 lbs.  On the other hand, there are a lot of people out there that are a lot bigger than I am and after 16 years in Asia, my definitions of large enough and crowded/uncrowded are probably not exactly American normal.  After all, my wife and I, and she is no small thing either, have gotten used to and feel quite normal running around town here on a 150 cc motorscooter - sometimes with the dog on board as well.  OK, we do get some strange looks at times.  
 
Picture is me after ride on test run,  I have now tried the resize.  Picture taken by co-worker and emailed to me.  Taken in workshop building at Wujih (Taichung)

 
"Coach Class" on the Shinkansen is five-across seating. "Green Car" is four across seating and more comfortable reclining system. It is not too much more expensive than Coach. This is based on my experience almost twenty years ago. (My, how time flies   )


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George_Harris
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Posts: 3796
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #8 on: Oct 26th, 2006, 6:35am »
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It is the coach class five across seating that I am talking about.  They are still bigger and more widely spaced than an airline coach seat.  That is from sitting in them in Japan about two years ago and in Taiwan about two weeks ago.  With some fairly minor exceptions, we are getting standard Series 700 Shinkansen trainsets.  They are now running through from end to end, but not yet a full schedule or opened to teh public.  
 
George


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RDG_4-8-4
Former Member
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #9 on: Oct 26th, 2006, 9:21am »
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on Oct 6th, 2006, 6:19pm, VentureForth wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Nice picture, George.
 
Here is a cool video of the latest and greatest N700 series Shinkansen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7P68KEh-y0&NR

 
The front end looks like a shoe.


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P+W_bullet_train
Former Member
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #10 on: Oct 26th, 2006, 9:29am »
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In this corner.......the Shinkansen......(applause).
 
In this corner.......the TGV..................(applause).
 
In this corner.......the ICE...................(applause).
 
 
 
And the winner is..............................
 
http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?52159
 
...................(screams and applause).
 
Nothing like the original high-speed electric train!!!!


« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2006, 9:35am by bullet_train » Logged
W.G McAdoo
Former Member
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #11 on: Oct 26th, 2006, 10:32am »
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        I would have to say that the original 1964 Shinkansen Bullet was (is) my favorite. (I STILL have a tin toy version of one!!) The Bullet in its original configuration reflected a time when "modern" was pleasing to the eye, and didn't resemble a cross between a syringe and a Dustbuster. Certainly, the Shinkansen was light-years ahead of its time, both in design and concept. The original P&W "Bullets" certainly were the inspiration for the high-speed electrics of today.....not only did they revolutionize electric traction, but they also paved the way for the high-speed services so commonplace today. BTW: George, as always, your fount of information NEVER runs dry!! Excleent observations!!

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RDG_4-8-4
Former Member
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #12 on: Oct 26th, 2006, 3:22pm »
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on Oct 26th, 2006, 10:32am, W.G McAdoo wrote:       (Click here for original message)
                              The original P&W "Bullets" certainly were the inspiration for the high-speed electrics of today.....not only did they revolutionize electric traction, but they also paved the way for the high-speed services so commonplace today. BTW: George, as always, your fount of information NEVER runs dry!! Excleent observations!!

 
Don't forget the P&W Bullets were the first RAILROAD equipment ever tested in a wind tunnel.  In this respect they were indeed the world's first high-speed electric trains.


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W.G McAdoo
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #13 on: Oct 26th, 2006, 4:09pm »
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on Oct 26th, 2006, 3:22pm, RDG_4-8-4 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Don't forget the P&W Bullets were the first RAILROAD equipment ever tested in a wind tunnel.  In this respect they were indeed the world's first high-speed electric trains.

 RDG: No dispute here!!!!


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George_Harris
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #14 on: Oct 28th, 2006, 9:28am »
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on Oct 26th, 2006, 9:21am, RDG_4-8-4 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
The front end looks like a shoe.

The actual term is duck bill.  
 
I have been told that the aerodynamic analysis for the T700 concluded that wider would be better, but clearances say that the duckbill can't be wider than the body of the train.  As it is, it is 2.000 meters longer, but thanks to the rounding that is not a factor in curves.  
 
Taiwan High Speed Rail opening date is being revised.  It is not going to be October 31.  The new date is not set.  Trains are now running full length except Taipei, itself.  Roughly a half hour interval schedule, but without the public.  Employees that are cleared for being on construction sites are permitted on board, by request and with an acceptable reason.  Hopefully, I will be on the Tuesday 7:00 am train one stop service to Tsoying (Kaohsiung) to go to a couple of meetings down there.
 
Back to the original thought.  If we ever run any of these things, TGV, ICE, or Shinkansen, it will have to be on dedicated track.  Taiwan HSR track tolerances for construction are 2 mm in a 10 meter chord, in otherwords, slightly over 1/16 inch in 33 feet, and in general it was met.  For maintenance, the limit is 5 mm, still under 1/4 inch.  It is extremely smooth, even at 300 km/h.  This is what they expect and what they get.  ICE and TGV track standards are similar.  If we ran any of these things on track to US FRA safety limits for whatever speed they are doing, they would probably shake to pieces.
 
George


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dethomas01
TRAINing
Posts: 11
Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #15 on: Nov 5th, 2006, 2:46pm »
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Quote:
Taiwan High Speed Rail opening date is being revised.  It is not going to be October 31.  The new date is not set.  Trains are now running full length except Taipei, itself.  Roughly a half hour interval schedule, but without the public.  Employees that are cleared for being on construction sites are permitted on board, by request and with an acceptable reason.  Hopefully, I will be on the Tuesday 7:00 am train one stop service to Tsoying (Kaohsiung) to go to a couple of meetings down there.

 
OPENING CEREMONY FOR TAIWAN HIGH-SPEED RAIL SLATED FOR DEC 7: REPORT
 
Quote:
TOKYO, Oct 27 Asia Pulse - A grand opening ceremony for Taiwan's first high-speed railway will be held Dec. 7 at the system's Taichung station in central Taiwan, a Japanese news agency reported Friday.
 
According to Kyodo News, Taiwan High-Speed Rail Corp. (THSRC) has sent invitations to former Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi and many other Japanese politicians and railway industry celebrities to attend the inauguration of the 345-kilometer railway which uses the Japan-built Shinkansen "bullet train" system.

 
http://au.biz.yahoo.com/061027/17/y5yw.html


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George_Harris
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #16 on: Nov 6th, 2006, 1:34am »
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Let's just say, I work here, and what will actually happen can not be explained by me if I would like to keep it that way.  But, opening ceremony may not exactly mean you can go out and buy a ticket to ride up and down the line that day.  
 
What I can say, is that we are runnin trains, for trial running and testing, but not to the full schedule of services.  Last Tuesday, rode it from Panchaio (western Taipei suburan stop, as currently the last 8 km into Taipei can not be put in service) to Tsoying (station fror Kaohsiung until the railway is put undergound into the central city - maybe 10+ years away)  Down on the 7:00 train, 85 minutes for 332 km with one stop at Taichung, much of it done at 300 km/h, came back on the 17:25 train, 1 hour 50 minutes, all five stops, a couple of slow orders, same 332 km.  Very smooth.  You definitely know when you meet a train going the other way, but then 300 km/h each = 186 mph, equals a closing speed of 372 mph.  Track centers of the mains are 4.5 meters = 14'-9", with the trains being 3.38 m = 11'-1" wide.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #17 on: Nov 6th, 2006, 12:26pm »
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So you have 3'8" clearance ebtween passing trains? Remind me not to go trespassing and trying to stand between a couple of trains as the blow by each other...

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Pennsy
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #18 on: Nov 6th, 2006, 12:36pm »
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Hi Clyde,
 
A neighbor of mine, recently retired from Union Pacific, tells me that this situation has happened and they are instructed to flatten out on the ground, between the passing trains. That way they can't be touched, or sucked under the wheels. Seems like it is good advice, should you find yourself in a tough situation like that.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Shinkansen vs Tgv vs Ice (The Battle of High S
 
« Reply #19 on: Nov 6th, 2006, 4:33pm »
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YEah, I expect lying down and hugging the ground (good advice when people start shooting at you or droppoing mortars or artillery into the vicinity according to my trainers when i was wearing a green suit, so i tend to think of that as a remedy for danger of various sorts) would be a MUCH better idea than trying to stand tall and proud. ANd as narrow as you could manage....  A much better one would be to just not get on the ROW (where you don't belong unless you are a railroad employee doing work, eh?) in the first place.

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