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Most luxurious passenger trains
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CarterB
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Posts: 214
Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« on: Aug 22nd, 2006, 2:16pm »
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During the 20th Century, what do you consider the most luxurious passenger trains? and why?
 A) In North America....
 B) and world-wide.
 
Include not only the particular accommodation (room) but total amenities on-board, including food service, and other service/s.
 
What do you consider the most luxurious operation/s world-wide today? and why?


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ClydeDET
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #1 on: Aug 22nd, 2006, 3:15pm »
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Well, probably have to break between pre-air conditioning and post-air conditioning, as the best of the trains before you had A/C pale beside ordinary accommodations afterward. At least in the summer.
 
In North America before  A/C I'd probably say the Santa Fe Deluxe. All room accommodations. The best of the best in meals. BArber shop. Bath, - anything known to the mind of luxury rail travel at the time, it had it.
 
North America after the introduction of A/C, probably something of a toss-up between 20th Century, Broadway, North Coast, Chief and Super Chief. They all had it all.
 
Rest of the world, pretty hard to say. Some of the British "Pullmans" to the north. At some times - Orient Express, whetehr direct or Venice Simplon. Blue Train n SOuth Africa.
 
Right now - the Orient Express operation. "Maharaja's Train" in India (all ex-Royal cars consist, supposed to be pretty special). American Orient Express or whatever they are calling it. VEry deluxe operation - and costs like it, too.


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petey
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #2 on: Aug 22nd, 2006, 5:07pm »
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Hello Guys,  
Clyde is right about the impact of A/C on the perception of 'luxurious' to train passengers.  Once it began there was no going back, and can you imagine the discomfort of the properly dressed matron with three inches of clothing on, in an unairconditioned car?  As Clyde says, this discomfort applies particularly to the Grande Ladies of the South.  
Case in point, couple of years ago I took the Austin Steam Train from Burnet to Bertram in July.  We all had seats in the 19th century, open window cars, everybody was 'moist'.  In exploring the train, I found the NKP 'City of Chicago' lounge car.  Wow...what a pleasant change  walking into that A/C car.  On the other hand, while taking a vacation trip on the AMTRAK 'Coast-whatever' from Portland to LA, my upper bunk  put me directly under the A/C vent.  Eight hours of that took the shine off.  
Considered a trip on the Amer. Orient Exp.  Have not done this, as the fare could have flown me to Japan.  And that, in part explains why the choo-choo companies wanted out of the passenger business.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #3 on: Aug 22nd, 2006, 5:32pm »
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Well, American Orient Express trains meet the "luxury" standards (or better) of the best of the trains operated in teh "old days", but it doesn't have the economies of scale and the ability to share costs with teh freight bidness the railroads had.
 
It's always cheaper when you have suppliers who are selling lots of stuff and you are just another customer than it is when everything is custom. Plus owning and maintaining hundreds or thousands of cars (on a per car basis) is cheaper than owning a few dozen only. But passenger service, by the mid-1950s at teh latest, was a minor amount of the revenue, but a very high profile public item and in many ways a considerable expense - after all, freight doesn't complain, passengers do. Running to schedule was important for apssenger, not so critical for freight. Etc.. Yeah - I can see why teh railroads wanted to train-off the passenegre end of things.  HAted it (And still do), but still can understand some of the motivations. And the less service you provided, the more expensive on a passenger-mile basis it got to continue it.


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Transcon
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Posts: 359
Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #4 on: Aug 22nd, 2006, 6:39pm »
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North America:
In North America, I´m differing between Heavyweight and Streamliner trains.
 
Heavyweights:
CP Trans Canada Limited 1929-1931
AT&SF De Luxe
C&NW/UP/SP Overland Limited
SOO/CP Soo-Spokane Train De Luxe
NP North Coast Limited before 1930
NYC 20th Century Limited
PRR Broadway Limited
SP Sunset Limited before 1930
C&NW/UP Los Angeles Limited before 1930
 
Streamliners:
AT&SF Super Chief and Chief
NYC 20th Century Limited
PRR Broadway Limited
GN Empire Builder
NP North Coast Limited
CB&Q/D&RGW/WP California Zephyr
SP Sunset Limited
 
For me, the probably 5 best trains of all those are the Trans Canada Limited, De Luxe, Super Chief, Chief and 20th Century Limited
 
Rest of World:
Orient Express in the time between 1910 and 1914
Rheingold (Germany)
Rovos Rail (South Africa)
Blue Train (South Africa)
Maharadja Express (India)
Great South Pacific Express (Australia)
 
The best train of all in my eyes is the Rovos Rail in South Africa. OK, it´s not a regular passenger train like Super Chief etc. was, but for me this train has it all. There are only 2 Drawing Room Suites in one single car! Including french bed, 2 or 3 sofa-chairs, writing desk, and even a complete bath (not a shower!)
 


« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2006, 6:43am by Transcon » Logged
Les_Shepherd
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #5 on: Aug 23rd, 2006, 3:42am »
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Prior to the advent of Palace class trains over recent years; the ranking was gnerally considered to be
 
1. The Blue Train (South Africa). The appointments and service were exemplary.
 
2. The Trans Australian (Commonwealth Railways). The cars included hot showers available for all and a piano in the first class lounge. The mantel was taken over by the Indian Pacific in 1970.
 
As I would understand the situation, for all of their gloss and reputation, North American trains fell well behind in these areas and even the best European trains were well behind.
 
The advent of Palace class trains has changed everything. The Blue Train has been moved into this class. There are plenty of these trains everywhere. India, Malaysia/Thailand, Australia, Canada as well as Europe. I can't afford to travel on them all to find out.
 
Note : The Great South Pacific Express, GSPE, when it existed, was know by local railfans as Go Slow, People Eating.


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Pennsy
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #6 on: Aug 23rd, 2006, 10:15am »
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Hi All,
 
Interesting to note that most have mentioned foreign trains as being the most luxurious, today. Hmmmmm.
 
I first was exposed to pampering on the Congressional, PRR, on the NEC. Streamlined Stainless Steel cars, Air Conditioning, and we were hauled by a Tuscan Red GG-1. Pig Heaven.  
 
The West Coast had it share as well. Super Chief and all of its relatives. No one has mentioned The California Zephyr. Those Vista Domes had Standing Room Only. To this day, I enjoy climbing those stairs to the Dome. Quite a view, as long as you stay out of the backyards and industrial backyards. If you wanted to really be pampered you made reservations in the Dining Car.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #7 on: Aug 23rd, 2006, 11:42am »
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You know, I find it a trifle odd that nobody (including me) mentioned the Golden State (Chicago-LA, Rock Island and EsPee) in both Standard and lightweight eras. One fine train. BEfore and after A/C.
 
Going to be sampling the current edition of the Cal Zephyr in October. We'll see how it is (in comparison to the Texas Chief, Texas Special, Twin Star Rocket  or General). Can't compare it to the original CZ since I never rode it.


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atlpete
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #8 on: Aug 24th, 2006, 1:59am »
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Worldwide and domestically I think Transcon's list "gets it,"  well done.
post-war pre-Amtrak I would make the following notations.
1. IC's Panama Limited; famous all-Pullman luxury train, wealthy Chicagoan's mid-winter escape route to Mardi-Gras and post Fat-Tuesday rolling hospital.
2. As an aside Transcon, alledgedly those who rode both will tell you the Chief was the best with it's full length dome, more delux rooms and lounge space then it's Super- sucessor, even with the coaches.
3. The Denver Zephyr; last complete "conventional" streamliner built by for a US carrier by Budd; Dome-Ob, Dome-"Chuck-Wagon", Dome-Buffet,  Dome-Coaches,  Dome-etc. etc. many argue (scenary aside)surpassed the CZ in ammenities.
4. L&N's Pan-American legendary 'cush between the dining car menu, service and unique pullmans, one of DPM's and Beebe's favorites.
5. UP's City of Los Angeles multi-lounge, multi-dome all-pullman wonder with unique dome-diner, the flagship of a fleet of ringers  
6. ACL's Florida Special, so special in every way Jackie Gleason chartered his own version of it. Where the delux cars from western roads went to spend the winter.    
7. Finally, apropo to Clyde's comment about SP/RI's stellar Golden State the Cascade and Lark both had a level of cuisine and sleeping accomodations that (at least until the early sixties) surpassed conventional concepts of comfort.
 
Post 1970 IMO Amtrak's Coast Starlight has been the undisputed premier domestic operation.(tour operators not withstanding)  


« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2006, 2:37am by atlpete » Logged
Les_Shepherd
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #9 on: Aug 24th, 2006, 2:29am »
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It is important to determine what appointments constitute “luxury”. I submit that these will be different for each type of train considered viz: day trains, overnight trains, long distance trains (24 hours or more).
 
In the pre air-conditioning era, the American end platform Parlor Car probably epitomised luxury of the era. The style was adopted around the world on only the very best trains. The combination of deep leather upholstery and waiter service was the very best.
 
It is a combination of the appropriateness of the appointments and the level of service which identifies luxury trains. The Dining car remains the pre-eminent indication of the whole train. Modern Lounge cars offer very little by way of service. The Dining car is supported by the appointments of the Sleeping cars. It is here that North American and European trains fall down.
 
Dining Cars
These have always been the big winner for railways. The combination of crisp damask tablecloths; heavy silver cutlery polished to within an inch of its life; meals prepared on board from fresh ingredients – no signs of pre prepared meals or congealed sauces which have been re-heated. A standard of food service way above anything the airlines can provide and equal to first class restaurants. It is adherence to these standards which lift a train into the luxury class.
 
Sleeping Cars
On overnight and long distance trains their appointments are very important. It is probably only worth considering these in the context of the air-conditioned era. The provision of hot showers in each car is basic. The standard lifts when you include a full private en-suite in each sleeping compartment. Neither of these levels was ever achieved on North American or European trains.
 
Lounge Cars – of all types
On overnight trains these cars have always seemed to me to be an expensive luxury. The amount of time they are used on a journey is disproportionately short relative to the length of the journey. On day trains they were more in the nature of a Parlor Car. Correctly fitted out they come into their own on long distance trains. That has certainly been the Australian experience. In addition to the usual chairs and lounges, compact tables and modes of entertainment are needed. The provision of a piano has been a valued and well used appointment on certain Australian trains since 1917.
 
Other Cars
The provision of cinema cars, gambling cars and cars for other specialist activities may be good selling points on certain services, but do they really add to luxury?
 
Day Trains
It will be interesting to read the contributions of those who experienced trains like The Coast Daylight, the Hiawathas and others. It has always been my perception that the pinnacle has reached with the “all Pulman” trains operated by British and European railways.
 
Overnight Trains
I have always considered trains like the 20th Century Limited and Broadway Limited to be overnight rains. Is the provision of on board facilities like a Barber Shop and Beauty Parlor a luxury service or even a piece of decadence? It has always seemed to me that these types of facilities amounted to little more than expensive marketing gimmicks. The two requirements for status are a good Dining Car and a car with a Lounge; and Sleeping Cars with en-suite compartments. The top train in this category was probably Southern Aurora. It came into existence in 1962 as an all sleeping car train between Sydney and Melbourne. It included a first class Dining Car, a full Lounge Car, twinette compartments with full en-suites, roomettes with partial en-suites, and a double bedroom in the de-luxe car. By the mid 80’s it was caught in the pincer of improved roads and rising operating costs.
 
Long Distance Trains
In North America, the Chiefs and the Florida trains along with the Trans Canadian were certainly amongst the leading trains. The Orient Express in Europe has always seemed to be more a train of repute based on intrigue rather than luxury. South Africa’s Blue Train and the Trans Australian/Indian Pacific are difficult to equal let alone surpass.
 
The Blue Train
I travelled on this train in 1987. I had a single compartment with a full en-suite which was huge by any measure. The train includes a 3 room suite featuring full bath and exclusive use of a Butler in the Lounge Room. A bottle of chilled champagne was waiting in the compartment on boarding. Tea and coffee were delivered as often as wished by the push of a button. In the Dining Car it was impossible to get through all of the courses offered. The compartment was turned down for night travel while away having dinner. The tinting in the windows was 18 carat gold.
 
Trans Australian/Indian Pacific
The Sydney-Perth journey continues to occupy 3 nights and the Sleeping cars are appointed to meet this need with en-suites and hot showers. The Lounge cars include a piano and compact tables. Musical concerts and card games have always been popular activities. The Dining Car provides 1st class restaurant standards. To experience this to-day you must travel “Gold Kangaroo” class. The lower classes miss the Dining and Lounge cars while “coach” class is very much 3rd class travel. The same standards and facilities are provided on The Ghan – Adelaide to Darwin.
 
Palace Class Trains
By reasons of price. The Blue Train has moved into this category. It is difficult to imagine standards being raised from where they have always been. The Indian Pacific and Ghan also fit into this category.
The Venice Simplon Orient Express (VSOE) is very much considered Palace class, but just what are its standards of service?
The Eastern & Oriental Express (VSOE operated) between Singapore and Bangkok use second hand cars from New Zealand. They were built for The Southerner between Christchurch and Invercargill.
Similar questions can be asked about The Rocky Mountaineer and India’s Palace on Wheels. Could it be that most of these trains operate on nostalgia masquerading as luxury?


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silver_champion
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Posts: 888
Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #10 on: Aug 24th, 2006, 7:33am »
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ACL Florida Special an under rated trains. Also the Champion. Santa Fe's Super Chief is the top train to me.

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CarterB
Railfan
Posts: 214
Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #11 on: Aug 24th, 2006, 8:57am »
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Les brings up interesting points as to what may be considered luxury.........now and pre- WWII.
 
Given some of the comments/standards set, what would the posters consider THE best train:
 
A) North America
B) The World
 
a) Prior to 1939  1) day  2) overnight
b) 1939 to 1971 1) day  2) overnight
c)  Post 1971 1) day  2) overnight
 
Reasons why also.


« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2006, 8:59am by CarterB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #12 on: Aug 24th, 2006, 11:38am »
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Pre-1939 day train - probably a toss-up between the Hiawathas and the Coast Daylight. Lightweights done right, full amenities, streamlined STEAM, and just flat-out beautiful trains to look at. Hard call, though, becasue there were plenty of other mighty fine ones. But I'm gonna stick to "after air conditioning" and make it the ones set forth.
 
Pre-1939 over-night, another mighty hard call, but I'm gonna come down on the Super Chief. The original lightweight with the very custom Budd cars. Fast, all the amenities you can ask for, comfortable according to everybody who ever rode and spoke to the subject, and treated as teh number one train on a carrier that cared about teh way it ran its passenger service.  Note that teh Pan, the 20th Century, the Broadway and others (Sunshine Special, anyone?)can make a claim, but I reckon (maybe becasue of my own preference for Santa Fe)  I'll stick with the Super Chief.
 
Rest of the world?  I don't think I can make an honest call, so I won't.
 
Post-1939, once more I'm going to stick to the USA.
 
Day trains are just too many of similar attainments, but at least into the early 50s, still have to give consideration to the Hiawathas and the Coast Daylight. Reading Crusader is another mighty fine train, what with its great diner and the round end parlor obs at each end. Congressional.  
 
Overnight trains? Still think the award falls to the Super Chief, even as combined with El Capitan, which was a train of superior attainments itself. But the last great iterations of the Empire Builder and North Coast are certainly worth consideration. Or the Pan American or 20th Century or Broadway. ACL and SAL have a right to consideration for their top trains.


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Transcon
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #13 on: Aug 25th, 2006, 9:08am »
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North America:
pre 1939:
Day: MILW Hiawathas between Chicago and Twin Cities. The trains were the fastest on rails at that time and I like the F-7 Baltics very much with their elegant painting.
Overnight: AT&SF De Luxe. Pure luxury. Including exclusevly 7 Drawing Room Sleeping cars. Even had an early (or seen from nowadays "primitive")sort of air condidtioning.
1939-1971:
Day: SP Shasta Daylight. For me it´s the most beautiful paint scheme ever. And the train had the "Stairway to the stars" domes, the tripple-unit diner "Shasta Club" and those high windows on every car.
Overnight: AT&SF Super Chief. Extra fast, extra fine, extra fare. All Room All Sleeper status. Pleasure Dome with the Turquoise Room. 4 Lounge areas (in the Baggage Barber Shop Buffet Lounge, in the Pleasure Dome, in the Dormitory Club Lounge and in the Sleeper Lounge Observations.
Post 1971:
Day: I have no idea.  
Overnight: The Royal Canadian Pacific. On this train I´m only missing a steam loco that should pull the train. The rest is perfect.
 
Rest of world:
Pre 1939:
Day: Germany´s Rheingold. It was something completely new when introduced in 1928.
Overnight: Orient Express in the time between 1910 and 1914. 6 wheel-truck sleeping and dining cars, finest mahagony, teak and even cherry wood, crystal lamps, and persian carpets. The dining car interior was fantastic. The ceiling was decorated like in a baroque castle (with ornaments and stuff). It would also have looked like a first class lounge on the "Titanic" if the plants were included.
1939-1971:
Day: Germany´s Rheingold. Travelling at 200 km/h, 1st class only, including bar car, dome-bar-lounge and diner.
Overnight: Brazil´s Cruseiro do Sul. The finest and only streamliner train in South America.  
Post 1971:
Day: I have no idea.
Overnight: South Africa´s Rovos Rail. I already mentioned why.


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ForestRump
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #14 on: Aug 25th, 2006, 6:46pm »
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atlpete wrote: As an aside Transcon, alledgedly those who rode both will tell you the Chief was the best with it's full length dome, more delux rooms and lounge space then it's Super- sucessor, even with the coaches.
 
The Chief did not get its full-length dome until 1956, 2 years after it lost its all-Pullman status and most of its deluxe rooms (I'm assuming you mean compartments and drawing rooms; after coaches were added, its sleepers were 10-6s and one 10-3-2 Blue series car).  It also lost much of its lounge space in 1954 when coaches were added, including the sleeper observation car and the baggage-lounge car.  So it never had all of the amenities you mention at one time.  Plus, until 1954 when coaches were added it was over 5 hours slower than the Super Chief.
 
Also, the reason luxury cars from the west coast came east to spend their winters serving on the Florida Special (and other Florida trains, both SAL and ACL) is that ACL miscalculated and ordered way too many roomettes and too few luxury rooms when it streamlined the Florida Special in 1949.  It had no compartments and only 4 drawing rooms with 150 roomettes!  Actually, the most important source of pricier accommodations was the PRR.
 
I was surprised that in the day-time category no one mentioned all-parlor car trains: the Senator (Boston-Washinton), the Congressional (New York-Washington), the Bay State, the Knickerbocker, the Merchants Limited, the Yankee Clipper (all New York-Boston, the Yankee Clipper replacing the Knickerbocker in the 1930s), and the Twilight Limited (Chicago-Detroit).  Those are the ones I know of.  The New Haven paid so much attention to the Merchants Limited that in one 4-year stretch in the 1920s it was re-equipped 3 times.  Also, some time before 1920, the Owl from New York to Boston had rooms with brass beds (not bunks that pulled down from the wall).
 
Transcon said the Milwaukee Road's Hiawathas were the fastest trains of their time, but I think the Burlington's Twin Zephyrs were faster.  They kept to pretty much the same schedule as the Hiawathas and the 400 on a route that was about 20 miles longer than the Milwaukee Road route and 35 miles longer than the CNW route.


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ClydeDET
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #15 on: Aug 25th, 2006, 6:57pm »
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I think that the His were probably the fastest until the Twin Zephyrs came on scene.
 
I will beg forgiveness for not mentioning more of the all-parlor trains in the East - but do claim that I recognized the Congressional as in the running.


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Mark_Foster
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #16 on: Aug 25th, 2006, 7:06pm »
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In the South at least there were no trains that could match the IC's Panama Limited.
All Pullman deluxe equipment, dining and ameneties. An overnight schedule on the 900+ miles between Chicago and the Big Easy wasn't exactly loafing either.


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Transcon
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #17 on: Aug 26th, 2006, 1:02pm »
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@ Forrest Rump:
I was talking about the Super Chief, not the Chief.
And the Super Chief definetly had 4 lounge areas between 1951 and 1956. Just go and check the Super Chief consists on the Santa Fe board.


« Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2006, 1:06pm by Transcon » Logged
Pennsy
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #18 on: Aug 26th, 2006, 2:07pm »
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Hi All,
 
As I remember it, the Super Chief was one Quantum Jump above and beyond the Chief. Talk about five star service.


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atlpete
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Re: Most luxurious passenger trains
 
« Reply #19 on: Aug 26th, 2006, 4:01pm »
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My observation (not Transcon's, who submitted the Super Chief) about the Chief being preferred by some over The Super- was based on an opinion expressed by the editor of Trains Magazine in the '60's, made on my part in the hope of initiating a response comparing the two, which ForrestR has done most informatively and refuting this perception. It's interesting though that Fred Frailey attributed to the Chief  
 
" ...as much as the Super Chief, ..... embodies the Santa Fe ethic of luxury, speed, and spit and polish service."
 
A favorable comparison implying an equivalent level of service, but not a better train, certainly based on the consist per FR.  
 
Regardless of where the bedrooms and compartments came from I certainly believed the seasonal Florida Special merited nomination, though I was surprised to learn it did not get it's own(at least initially after going lightweight) observation car. Like the leased sleepers though I have seen photos of sixties era  FS's with "Tower" series pennsy obs, and L&N ex-Crescent obs.


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