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The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
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   Author  Topic: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow  (Read 505 times)
L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #40 on: Nov 18th, 2015, 3:32pm »
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Clyde:
 
The subject of gauges is a fascinating topic in itself (no, I'm NOT going to conjure up images of either a narrow gauge or a broad gauge T-1!) ; this discussion and comparison of gauges, of course, also encompasses street railway and rapid transit lines.
 
As an example, the once-vast PSNJ (Public Service) streetcar network in New Jersey was virtually all standard gauge with an interesting exception; outside of Camden (served by PS's SOUTHERN Division) the car lines all were standard gauge.
 
However, within the Camden city limits, PS cars ran on a 5 foot gauge; this, of course, prohibited the exchange of equipment with the several northern divisions then operating streetcars (HUDSON, ESSEX, BERGEN, CENTRAL, and PASSAIC)
 
In fact, early in the 1930's, when PS was converting most Camden car lines to buses, a number of streetcars went north for further service on the ESSEX and HUDSON Divisions.
 
Before the cars could re-enter revenue service, they had to have their trucks swapped out at PS's huge maintenence facility, known as Passaic Wharf, near Newark.
 
Here, the wide-gauge trucks were removed, and surplus standard gauge trucks from previously scrapped equipment were installed under the car bodies brought up from the south...........
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2015, 12:09am by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #41 on: Nov 18th, 2015, 6:28pm »
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Yes indeed gauge is fascinating. And needs somebody who is the right sort of civil engineer to really lay it out (George?) lucidly. Wasn't Washington, DC street car system a five-foot gauge?

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L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #42 on: Nov 18th, 2015, 7:20pm »
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on Nov 18th, 2015, 6:28pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Yes indeed gauge is fascinating. And needs somebody who is the right sort of civil engineer to really lay it out (George?) lucidly. Wasn't Washington, DC street car system a five-foot gauge?

 
 
Clyde:
 
The old DC TRANSIT streetcar network (the last lines converted to buses in 1962) utilized standard gauge rails.
 
Interestingly, in 1929, the last of the standard gauge car lines in New Orleans were converted to 5' 2 1/2" gauge, to match the rest of the streetcar network.
 
The DC METRO operates uses a "modified" standard gauge.
 
In the late 1930's, several PSNJ work cars were sold to CAPITAL TRANSIT (DC), but, being standard gauge cars, they required no changes to their running gear when they arrived in the Capital..........
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Nov 18th, 2015, 8:51pm by CLASSB » Logged
George_Harris
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #43 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 12:58am »
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Yes, Clearances, Loads, and such:  As lots of things, the more you dig into it and more you learn, the more you realize is out there and the less you feel you really know.  
 
Almost all the so called constants that are used in various engineering calculations have ranges of variability.  Here is one good example:  When we figure required superelevation to balance the centrifugal force on a curve, the usual is to express it in inches, but that in reality is derived from the angle needed to balance lateral force and gravity and the space between wheel contact points on the rails.  Now, lets get to the fuzzy parts:  The space between wheel contact points on the rails is neither at the gage point, which is inside of the rail heads measured at a point 5/8 inch below the top of the rail head, nor at the center of the  rail heads.  Plus, superelevation is measured between the high points of the two rail heads, which is also not at the center of the rail heads.   Now the vertical component of the force is gravity.  That is a constant, 32.174 ft/sec^2, you think?  No not really, there is some variability in gravity over the surface of this planet.  Is it the same all the time at any one given place?  I don't know and am afraid to ask.  The range is small, but it is there.  In fact it is sufficient significant that to go with 32.174 and believing that your answers are good to that same level of precision is silly.  You might as well use 32.2 ft/sec^2, which is what is normally done, or else find out what it really is to greater precision if you are dealing with situations where that level of precision is needed.  Guess what, if you design things that close you are living in fantasyland.    And then, when talking about superelevation, do you really think that if you calculate superelevation for a curve for, say 125 mph, and get 8.49 inches, so set an actual superelevation of 6 inches leaving an unbalance of 2.49 inches, do you really think that 2.49 inches unbalance is what will actually be the force felt?  Well, yes, but only if you are really going 125 mph, and not 124, 126, or some other speed.  And, oh by the way, if you are in a vertical curve there is some vertical acceleration on the train going through it, so that changes the vertical component in this equation, and therefore the unbalance force felt.
 
So, when we calculate what we need, you use this when you have standard gauge track and are using feet, inches, mph, and for curve in degrees, degrees of change in direction within 100 feet, and that 100 feet is normally measured on the chord in the railroad world and on the arc in highways.  
for degrees, SE = 0.0007 V^2 D, or for radius,  SE = 4.0 V^2 / R  If you express you answers in more than 3 significant figures you are kidding yourself, and that third place is somewhat fuzzy.  
 
OK, back to track gauges and clearances:
 
Standard Gauge = 56.5 inches, or 1435 mm.  Brunel with his wide gauge railway referred to this derisively as the "Coal waggon gauge"
 
Russia and the Soviet Union after it as part of choosing 5 feet used it to slow down invaders, for which purpose it performed admirably.  From things I have read Hitler's invasion was hindered greatly by the need to regage the Soviet Railways in order to supply his troops.  Why it took so much time and effort I am mystified, as all stories of regauging of the Southern lines says that they managed to do it by taking the main out of service for one day only.  (We know who won the War Between the States, don't we?)
Oh by the way, the Russian gauge is not really 5 feet.  It is 1520 mm, which is ever so slightly less.  5 feet is 1524 mm.
 
Equipment gauge (height and width) is only partly related to track gauge.  American is too wide, too high, and too heavy to run on the lines in Western Europe, despite the track gauges being the same.  The Japanese equipment operated on their 1067 mm (3'-6") gauge lines is as wide as that run in Europe on standard gauge tracks.  The Shinkansen coaches are 11'-1" wide, which is 5 inches wider than the 10'-8" of most of the AAR standard freight car diagrams.  Despite this difference, the Shinkansen cars can run virtually everywhere on the North American railroad network outside the northeast as almost all railroad lines in this country are cleared for a certain level of oversize equipment.  
 
Yes, we would have been better off with a slightly wider track gauge, but to what extent I am not sure where the magic value is.  India has been doing some study on developing some high capacity freight lines and some of the issues we have with double stacks are considerably less significant when you have 5'-6" between rails instead of 4'-8 1/2".  Brunel may have gone a step too far, particularly for the equipment of the time, but that really should not have been used to justify going all the way back to the current standard.  It is true that there are problems with equipment and operations on 3'-6" that are reduced by going to a wider gauge, but they are obviously not severe enough to cause systems to go for major track regauging.  
 
Someday when sufficiently bored I am going to try to do some sort of analysis of the ratio between standard equipment widths versus track gauges that are used in this world.  It might be enlightening, but it could simple be confusing.  
 
Just a few random thoughts.


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Henry
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #44 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 1:34am »
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Years ago I read somewhere that some streetcar systems were built to other than standard gauge to deliberately prevent steam railroad equipment from being able run on their streets. It may have been required by some city charters.
 
Henry


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #45 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 8:29am »
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on Nov 19th, 2015, 1:34am, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Years ago I read somewhere that some streetcar systems were built to other than standard gauge to deliberately prevent steam railroad equipment from being able run on their streets. It may have been required by some city charters.
 
Henry

 
 
Henry/Clyde/All:
 
You are right on the mark, my friend!
 
Most non-railfans naturally assume(d) that the streetcar tracks that once criss-crossed their cities and towns were always of the same gauge of the railroad tracks that carried the trains which served their communities.....NOT!
 
DENVER TRAMWAYS' cars, as an example, utilized a 3' 6" gauge.
 
An interesting scenario was at hand in Baltimore in the early 1900's, when a proposed interurban line was to be built between Baltimore and Washington DC; this new line was also to allow through service via the existing trackage of Baltimore's UNITED.
 
However, the new interurban was to be built to 4' 8 1/2" gauge, while the UNITED's cars utilized a track gauge of 5' 4 1/2".
 
The new company planned to swap trucks under its cars at Elliciott City, in a manner similiar to what was used for used for years on the EBT.
 
During the planning, oddly enough, few seemed to question the problems posed by switching trucks on which the traction motors were mounted.
 
Until the end of all streetcar service in Los Angeles in 1963, the "Yellow Cars" (formerly LARy) used the same narrow gauge as DENVER TRAMWAYS (3' 6").
 
On several streets where they ran along the same routes as PE's "Big Red Cars", dual-gauge tracks were utilized.........
 
"L.F.L."
 


« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2015, 12:50pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #46 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 8:47am »
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George:
 
Once again, a most outstanding piece of writing, loaded with a trainload of facts, figures, and well-researched engineering data.....thank you for posting here with us, and for taking the time to write it all down.
 
EXCELLENT work.....
 
"L.F.L."
 
 


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #47 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 12:46pm »
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on Nov 19th, 2015, 1:34am, Henry wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Years ago I read somewhere that some streetcar systems were built to other than standard gauge to deliberately prevent steam railroad equipment from being able run on their streets. It may have been required by some city charters.
 
Henry

 
 
Henry/Clyde/All:
 
From Columbus, Ohio, comes this interesting tale of different gauge streetcar rails (w/photos)
 
5' 2' vs 4' 8 1/2"..........
 
http://www.columbusrailroads.com/track%20gauge.htm
 
(courtesy: columbusrailroads.com)


« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2015, 12:48pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #48 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 2:24pm »
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Whee - tell me life can't get complicated. And consider the situation at Denver and its Union Station (and some other places that I can't recall seeing photos of but am sure had the same arrangements) where dual gauge track to allow service by both standard gauge and 3-foot narrow gauge roads....
 
I do rather wish we had gone to the Erie six-foot "Broad Gauge" (if memory serves) as our national standard. or even the South's dominant 5-foot.


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #49 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 2:38pm »
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on Nov 19th, 2015, 2:24pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Whee - tell me life can't get complicated. And consider the situation at Denver and its Union Station (and some other places that I can't recall seeing photos of but am sure had the same arrangements) where dual gauge track to allow service by both standard gauge and 3-foot narrow gauge roads....
 
I do rather wish we had gone to the Erie six-foot "Broad Gauge" (if memory serves) as our national standard. or even the South's dominant 5-foot.

 
 
Clyde:
 
Indeed, when discussing the pros and cons of gauges (both in a historical context as well as in a modern sense) things can get quite interesting AND complex, to say the least!
 
Dug the following item out of my files.......
 
http://www.parovoz.com/spravka/gauges-en.php
 
"L.F.L."


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #50 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 2:43pm »
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See also:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_trolley_gauge


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #51 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 6:42pm »
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Information and several photos of remnants of New Orlean's long-gone dual gauge streetcar lines......
 
http://www.streetcarmike.com/no_artifacts.html
 
(courtesy: streetcar mike)


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L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #52 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 10:15pm »
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The ANCIENT roots of gauges......(!!)
 
http://www.naciente.com/essay94.htm
 
(courtesy: Paul V. Hartman)


« Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2015, 8:16am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
Former Member
Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #53 on: Nov 20th, 2015, 8:12am »
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Railroad gauges and Roman chariots...........
 
http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp
 
(courtesy: snopes.com)


« Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2015, 8:15am by CLASSB » Logged
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