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The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
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   Author  Topic: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow  (Read 502 times)
ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #20 on: Nov 12th, 2015, 9:24pm »
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on Nov 11th, 2015, 3:25pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 
Clyde:
 
Agreed 100%, my friend!
 
When I was born in Jersey City (January, 1957), the PRR was still using K-4's on their trains to Bay Head Jct. (NY&LB) out of their old Jersey City terminal (Exchange Place), which closed in late 1961.
 
Being the last steamers in use in my area at the time, for that reason, the K-4's have been my long-time favorite Pennsy steamer (the ERIE and the CNJ had abolished the last of their steam power only a few years earlier)
 
The only K-4 I ever saw personally was from the BROADWAY many years ago, on static display at the Horseshoe Curve.
 
I totally agree with you; a STATIC display T-1 would be FAR better than nothing at all; to see such a stunning and futuristic engine on display would indeed be an awesome experience, never to be forgotten........
 
"L.F.L."

 
Bill Withun did an article in TRAINS Magazine some years ago about divided drive locomotives (rigid frames, four cylinders, but the drivers connected by rods working on crank axles between the frames). His proposal looks very attractive, but I understand practical problems exist that reduce its probable utility. But the T-1 and the Qs strike me as engines that might have been worth trying the concept on.


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L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #21 on: Nov 13th, 2015, 8:18pm »
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Clyde:
 
I recall reading that TRAINS article awhile ago; can you recall the issue?
 
I totally agree; it would have been most interesting to see that concept applied to both the T-1's and the Q's.........the outcome, I am sure, would be quite interesting....
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Nov 13th, 2015, 8:18pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #22 on: Nov 13th, 2015, 10:37pm »
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Also of interest........
 
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/duplex/?page=prr
 
(courtesy: steamlocomotive.com)


« Last Edit: Nov 13th, 2015, 10:38pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #23 on: Nov 14th, 2015, 3:29pm »
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on Nov 13th, 2015, 10:37pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Also of interest........
 
http://www.steamlocomotive.com/duplex/?page=prr
 
(courtesy: steamlocomotive.com)

 
That is an interesting article. It appears to referenece (and link) the article I recall getting on the C&O test on the T-1..
 
They (and for that matter, the 6-8-6 turbine) might have shown well on the Santa Fe east of La Junta, though Chico's Hudsons and Heavy Mountain 4-8-4s offered everything that road needed.


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ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #24 on: Nov 14th, 2015, 3:33pm »
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on Nov 13th, 2015, 8:18pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde:
 
I recall reading that TRAINS article awhile ago; can you recall the issue?
 
I totally agree; it would have been most interesting to see that concept applied to both the T-1's and the Q's.........the outcome, I am sure, would be quite interesting....
 
"L.F.L."

 
Sorry, don't recall, but it was sometime in the last century I think. maybe in the late 1980s or early 1990s.


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L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #25 on: Nov 14th, 2015, 3:34pm »
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on Nov 14th, 2015, 3:29pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
That is an interesting article. It appears to referenece (and link) the article I recall getting on the C&O test on the T-1..
 
They (and for that matter, the 6-8-6 turbine) might have shown well on the Santa Fe east of La Junta, though Chico's Hudsons and Heavy Mountain 4-8-4s offered everything that road needed.

 
 
Clyde:
 
Just to indulge in the realm of fanciful "what if's" for a moment, could you imagine a cab-forward version of the turbine running on the ESPEE?
 
Far-fetched as all get-out, I know, but, man, what a picture your mind  conjures up with that fantasamagoric vision......(!!) :
 
"L.F.L."


« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2015, 3:35pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #26 on: Nov 14th, 2015, 5:34pm »
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An interesting page (w/photos) on duplex locomotives.....
 
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/duplex/duplex.htm
 
(courtesy: The Douglas Self Site)


« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2015, 5:37pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #27 on: Nov 16th, 2015, 5:19pm »
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on Nov 14th, 2015, 3:34pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 
Clyde:
 
Just to indulge in the realm of fanciful "what if's" for a moment, could you imagine a cab-forward version of the turbine running on the ESPEE?
 
Far-fetched as all get-out, I know, but, man, what a picture your mind  conjures up with that fantasamagoric vision......(!!) :
 
"L.F.L."

 
Yes, that is pretty fanciful, all right. But - might be workable.  
 
While they didn't come to pass, Santa Fe apparently considered some cab-forward designs at one time. I'd think a cab-forward, oil-burning turbine might have been useful on Chico's lines east of la Junta.


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L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #28 on: Nov 16th, 2015, 6:01pm »
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on Nov 16th, 2015, 5:19pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Yes, that is pretty fanciful, all right. But - might be workable.  
 
While they didn't come to pass, Santa Fe apparently considered some cab-forward designs at one time. I'd think a cab-forward, oil-burning turbine might have been useful on Chico's lines east of la Junta.

 
 
Clyde:
 
Was not at all aware that SF ever even considered cab-forwards; this certainly would have been one serious piece of motive power, had such a locomotive ever become a reality on SF rails............
 
"L.F.L."


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L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #29 on: Nov 16th, 2015, 6:59pm »
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A little "sidetrack", here, regarding PRR and SF steam.....
 
In 1956, 12 locomotives of SF's 5011 class were leased to the PRR, and used on coal trains between Columbus and Sandusky, Ohio.
 
In this service, they shared the rails with PRR's J-1's.
 
All of the engines were sent back to the SF in November; by December, they were put in storage and never turned a wheel again.....
 
(courtesy: "SANTA FE RAILWAY", by Steve Glischinski)
 
"L.F.L."


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ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #30 on: Nov 17th, 2015, 4:48pm »
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on Nov 16th, 2015, 6:59pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
A little "sidetrack", here, regarding PRR and SF steam.....
 
In 1956, 12 locomotives of SF's 5011 class were leased to the PRR, and used on coal trains between Columbus and Sandusky, Ohio.
 
In this service, they shared the rails with PRR's J-1's.
 
All of the engines were sent back to the SF in November; by December, they were put in storage and never turned a wheel again.....
 
(courtesy: "SANTA FE RAILWAY", by Steve Glischinski)
 
"L.F.L."

 
I believe the 5011s gave excellent service, though am not sure how well they were liked in comparison to the home-road power that the engine crews were more familiar with.
 
From IRON HORSES OF THE SANTA TRAIL, p 339: "...After a few incidents resulting from misunderstanding of the length and characteristics of the Santa Fe standard pilot fabricated of second-hand flues, the Santa Fe engines settled down for an uneventful summer of work.
Sandhouse gossip has it that the Pennsy J's could start more than the sons of Madame Queen, but the latter could keep it rolling faster. Considering the basic elements of the two locomotives, this seems to be a reasonable appraisal.
For certain, the Pennsy firemen loved the ease with which an oil-burning fire could be maintained!".
 
s to Santa Fe Cab-forward proposals, IRON FORSES OF THE SANTA FE TRAIL has a chapter starting on page 374 that discusses such.
 
Included are a 6-4-4-4 duplex (proposal, never went past drawings); a quadraplex(!!) 2-8-8-8-8-2 with a cap forward for engineer and a cab aft for the firemen (or firemen - it was coal-burner) from 1913. Not past proposal and drawings;  same designer (George Henderson) also proposed a 2-6-6-6-6-6-2 quintiplex that used a jointed boiler and articulated tender; and the true behemoth 2-10-10-10-10-10-2. I doubt the quadraplex and quintiplex  engines could have provided enough steam to feed all the cylinders, and then there is the matter of how they would handle curves (even with multiple articulations) without damaging track or derailing.
 
The duplex 6-4-4-4 was intended for fast passenger service and would have been capable of extended 100 MPH runs with long trains on the race-track east of La Junta. If they had been built...


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L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #31 on: Nov 17th, 2015, 5:18pm »
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Clyde:
 
EXCELLENT post; I appreciate you taking the time to post this fascinating historical data/trivia.
 
Regarding duplex/articulated steam locomotives, the following links should be of interest.......
 
http://www.beyergarrattlocos.co.uk/garratt-mallet.html
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garratt


« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2015, 5:21pm by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #32 on: Nov 17th, 2015, 5:27pm »
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This excellent photo site is dedicated to the last of the massive Garratts operating in Zimbabwe; one can really stimulate their imagination picturing such monstrous machines pounding the devil out of PRR iron.....
 
http://david-longman.com/zimbabwe.html
 
(courtesy: David longman)


« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2015, 5:27pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #33 on: Nov 17th, 2015, 9:07pm »
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on Nov 17th, 2015, 5:18pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde:
 
EXCELLENT post; I appreciate you taking the time to post this fascinating historical data/trivia.
 
Regarding duplex/articulated steam locomotives, the following links should be of interest.......
 
http://www.beyergarrattlocos.co.uk/garratt-mallet.html
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garratt

 
De nada - I was thinking that I had seen the cab-forward proposals for the Santa Fe  in IRON HORSES OF THE SANTA FE TRAIL (wonderful book IMO) and it was handy (not a given...), so it was a quick and easy find.
 
As to Garratts, I suspect they might handle curvy track better than Mallets or simple articulateds. Wonder how a standard gauge  example built to N&W loading gauge would have done on that road? What about a 4-8-4+4-8-4. Using a Y's boiLer and running gear off a J, perhaps...


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L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #34 on: Nov 17th, 2015, 9:36pm »
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Clyde:
 
Good question!
 
The Garretts certainly could handle "curvy-lines"; in Africa, many of the lines they operated on years ago had quite a number of curves, especially in mountainous area.
 
Elevation was another important factor in Africa; the highest point of any railway in the Commonwealth (Timborora Summit) stands at 9,136 feet above sea level in the Kenya highlands.
 
One of the largest of all the Garratt articulated locomotives on the EAR (East African Rys.) were those of the "59 Mountain Class".......
 
"L.F.L."


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L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #35 on: Nov 17th, 2015, 9:40pm »
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See also:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAR_59_class
 
According to this article, these steam-driven Goliaths were the ".......largest, heaviest, and most powerful steam locomotives to operate on any metre gauge railway in the world...."


« Last Edit: Nov 17th, 2015, 9:45pm by CLASSB » Logged
ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #36 on: Nov 17th, 2015, 11:26pm »
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on Nov 17th, 2015, 9:40pm, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
See also:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EAR_59_class
 
According to this article, these steam-driven Goliaths were the ".......largest, heaviest, and most powerful steam locomotives to operate on any metre gauge railway in the world...."

 
I have seen that claim, and know of no reason to dispute it.
 
Here is a bit of modeler's trivia, or something. HO track is almost perfect 3'6" gauge modeled in S (1:64) scale. If you are up to it, model NZ (or other 3'6") railroads, using HO trucks, running gear, etc. and scratch-built superstructures.


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L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #37 on: Nov 18th, 2015, 12:25am »
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on Nov 17th, 2015, 11:26pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
I have seen that claim, and know of no reason to dispute it.
 
Here is a bit of modeler's trivia, or something. HO track is almost perfect 3'6" gauge modeled in S (1:64) scale. If you are up to it, model NZ (or other 3'6") railroads, using HO trucks, running gear, etc. and scratch-built superstructures.

 
 
Clyde:
 
Regarding scale/gauge:
 
Kenya's railway network, in the not-too-distant past, had been 3' 3 3/8"; it has since been re-gauged to standard (Stephenson's) gauge.
 
With standard gauge a "standard" here at home for well over a century, we often forget that many gauges have been (and are still used) throughout the world; of course, that translates into specific specifications for motive power, rolling stock, etc.
 
Though getting a bit further away from the original topic of the T-1, recall that the former ERIE were blessed with very generous clearances, which harked back to the ERIE's broad-gauge days.......
 
"L.F.L."
 
 


« Last Edit: Nov 18th, 2015, 12:26am by CLASSB » Logged
L. F. LOREE 1403
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #38 on: Nov 18th, 2015, 12:30am »
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Articulated steamers......
 
http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r095.html
 
(courtesy: Mike's Railway History)


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ClydeDET
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Re: The Mighty T-1/Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow
 
« Reply #39 on: Nov 18th, 2015, 2:13pm »
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on Nov 18th, 2015, 12:25am, L. F. LOREE 1403 wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
 
Clyde:
 
Regarding scale/gauge:
 
Kenya's railway network, in the not-too-distant past, had been 3' 3 3/8"; it has since been re-gauged to standard (Stephenson's) gauge.
 
With standard gauge a "standard" here at home for well over a century, we often forget that many gauges have been (and are still used) throughout the world; of course, that translates into specific specifications for motive power, rolling stock, etc.
 
Though getting a bit further away from the original topic of the T-1, recall that the former ERIE were blessed with very generous clearances, which harked back to the ERIE's broad-gauge days.......
 
"L.F.L."
 
 

 
Indeed there have been, including some adopted for reasons having nothing to do with operational efficiencies. Like the 5-foot gauge adopted  in Russia, Spain and Portugal, which had to do with making invasion more difficult.  
 
And of course there was Brunel's "God's Wonderful Railway" with its 7-foot gauge in Britain. I am of the opinion that a five or six-foot gauge would have been a better idea than Stephenson's as "Standard" gauge But what would I know? I understand that going much over six feet leads to problems, such that Brunel's 7-foot would be marginal in a number of ways. But the generous loading gauge would be good.


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