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Color Scheme Question
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   Author  Topic: Color Scheme Question  (Read 366 times)
TAB
Historian
Posts: 1909
Color Scheme Question
 
« on: Dec 20th, 2013, 12:27am »
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....I know I saw a photo somewhere. I've been through my reference material and have searched on line but without success. I'm looking for a photo of a PRR streamline passenger car, Budd I think, that is fluted, unpainted stainless steel below the windows with the remainder being tuscan red. Perhaps the roof was black. I would appreciate it if someone could help me locate an image as I'm interested in modeling a few cars in this scheme....Tom

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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3438
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #1 on: Dec 20th, 2013, 8:05am »
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TAB -  
 
The truth is out there! Yes, there was a (small?) pool of painted Budd Cars in PRR operations. It was one of PRR decisions,  
wherein many asked, "...why ever did they do that?...".
 
Seems to me, and IIRC, you should check equipment lists for the SOUTH WIND, which was a CGO/ Midwest - Florida, largely  
seasonal schedule. Trust this of some help...
 
.........................Vern....................


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TAB
Historian
Posts: 1909
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #2 on: Dec 20th, 2013, 1:03pm »
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.....Thanks Vern...I've done some additional searches....still nothing. I might just fake it from what I remember as they looked neat....sort of like the B&O cars that were silver below the windows, grey, blue and black window panel and above....Tom

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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3438
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #3 on: Dec 20th, 2013, 1:32pm »
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TAB -
 
Can you take a little joke! Do The Homework, Kids! The inventive will know answers are in the back of the book! See
this account, and its mention of the PRR "Red" Budd Cars...
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Wind_%28passenger_train%29
 
B & O, and unusual paint scheme noted? Absent Photos, my guess is what you note is a "stream styled" Heavyweight Car.  
In some examples, on some of the lines, the "Silver below the window line" treatment seen. In some cases, there was a  
"shadow line" horizontal pattern. A "trick of the eye" to hint it much more modern equipment, compatible with new Budd  
(and other) Cars...
 
.........................Vern.......................


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Henry
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Posts: 6109
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #4 on: Dec 20th, 2013, 2:10pm »
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From George Elwood's rr-fallenflags.org site, listed as "Coach owned be (sic) HS {Bill Navari Photo}":
 

 
 
Who knows how accurate the HS car is, but it is the only one I have found with the window panel in maroon.  
 
Most of the fluted Budd cars had a silver window panel with red number and roadname boards like the Congressional and Senator trains and like this car, listed as "Diner - LaCrosse WI - 06/20/04 - {M Foltz Photo} - (Henry Hudson)":
 

 
 
Another, "Diner 1155 - Pittsburgh PA - 12/26/82 - {Bob Rathke Photo}":
 

 
 
I thought I might have some N scale passenger cars with tuscan window panels, but no joy checking the ones I can get to at the moment. I'll keep it in mind
 
I know PRR painted two corrugated sleepers in Frisco's silver and red scheme, but they looked decidedly un-Pennsy. Aside from those two and the oddball HS car above, those are the only three PRR corrugated cars with tuscan/maroon or red window bands. I think I have seen a corrugated car that was entirely painted tuscan, but that may have been a model...
 
Henry


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3438
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #5 on: Dec 20th, 2013, 3:43pm »
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Henry - TAB -  
 
IMHO, DHRC 101 is fanciful and dubious. But, what do I know? Supporting Photos of comparables would do just fine.  
As quirky as the P R R was, your writer is not comfortable with this particular paint scheme...
 
The other two Photos? That's in my comfort zone. Looks like the new equipment brought in for the CONGRESSIONAL  
schedules. And, except for the KEYSTONE experiment, likely the last major order from the Line...
 
SOUTH WIND? It still won't go away. There must be some supporting Photos, somewhere. The "folklore" on it? The  
P R R demand near to made the BUDD guys crazy. It was no easy thing to get the Red paint to adhere to the native  
Stainless Steel. But, PENN long noted for getting things its way...
 
SA 21 DEC/ This account notes bickering between PRR and BUDD. http://www.american-rails.com/south-wind.html
 
...........................Vern..........................


« Last Edit: Dec 21st, 2013, 2:44pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

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TAB
Historian
Posts: 1909
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #6 on: Dec 22nd, 2013, 2:18pm »
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Henry....thanks for those photos. The first one is the closest to the photo I remember seeing except that the Tuscan Red covered the car from the window panel upward.
 
Vern....I found a lot of information on the South Wind, mostly consist and route data although some color information appeared here and there and ran the gamut from Loewy Scheme to all Tuscan Red to stainless steel but no mention of the particular combination that was the subject of my quest.....
 
....but in the process I came across another reference book, that with out evidence to the contrary, I'll consider the definitive text on the question of PRR passenger color schemes. The book is titled Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering and was published by the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. There is documentation (pages 88-89) of a red and silver paint scheme, identical to the one in question,  that was applied to two PRR sleepers, Imperial Range and Imperial Terrace for use on the through New York to Los Angeles, Golden State Route Over the PRR, RI and SP and although the letter board carried the name "Golden State", this must have been the car I remember, mixed in with other PRR equipment. The photo, as I recall was taken from a distance and the lettering on the, odd ball, mid train car was illegible.
 
.....so I think I found the answer to my question....sincerest thanks for all the input....Tom


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3438
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #7 on: Dec 23rd, 2013, 9:17am »
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TAB - All -  
 
You surely found a pair of "rare birds" in the PRR System. "Wiki" item of some help. Raises an obvious question?  
Whether Red used was standard PRR, or the Red favored by ROCK ISLAND? Sources also state use of ESPEE Daylight Red.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_State_%28train%29
 
http://www.rits.org/www/histories/goldenstate/gs.htm
 
......................Vern......................


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TAB
Historian
Posts: 1909
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #8 on: Dec 23rd, 2013, 12:21pm »
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Hello Vern....those photos of the equipment in the second link above virtually confirm that what I saw in the photo was a Golden State car mixed in with a more traditional liveried PRR train. The color photo I recall was of poor quality and taken at a distance. That plus the vagaries of color photography compounded by the translation to print must have darkened the red to more resemble the PRR's Tuscan......thanks for your efforts in helping to shed some light on the equipment in question.....Tom

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ClydeDET
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Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #9 on: Nov 19th, 2015, 9:32pm »
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I think Pennsy had through cars to San Antonio off Penn-Texas to Texas Special at St. Louis, and they were painted to match the KATY/Rock Island cars for that train.
 
Red skirts, red pier panels, red roofs, fluting above and below the pier panel natural stainless steel. Quite dramatic, but not what you are recalling I fear.


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3438
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #10 on: Nov 20th, 2015, 7:39am »
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on Nov 19th, 2015, 9:32pm, ClydeDET wrote:       (Click here for original message)
I think Pennsy had through cars to San Antonio off Penn-Texas to Texas Special at St. Louis, and they were painted to match the KATY/Rock Island cars for that train.
 
Red skirts, red pier panels, red roofs, fluting above and below the pier panel natural stainless steel. Quite dramatic, but not what you are recalling I fear.

 
Clyde - Lodge Members -  
 
You allude to "...a horse of  a different color..." (Wizard Of Oz)? <G>
 
The New York - Texas through cars of Texas Special implies specific Pullman routes for service. So that each Carrier in the routings
provided through equipment for a Texas Special "pool" of Cars. The actual numbers of Cars apparently decided by "mileage pro-rate"
among the Carriers party to the particular agreement.
 
In the same era, keep in mind there were East Coast - Texas Pullman routes which involved equipment in the style of Missouri Pacific  
(MP) Eagle services. IIRC, we used to have MOPAC Eagle Cars appearing in B&O schedules passing through Baltimore (ages back).
Perhaps Brother Bowen,  and Wayner, has sorted it all out over the years?
 
.............................Vern........................


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ClydeDET
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Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #11 on: Nov 20th, 2015, 5:41pm »
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on Nov 20th, 2015, 7:39am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

 
Clyde - Lodge Members -  
 
You allude to "...a horse of  a different color..." (Wizard Of Oz)? <G>
 
The New York - Texas through cars of Texas Special implies specific Pullman routes for service. So that each Carrier in the routings
provided through equipment for a Texas Special "pool" of Cars. The actual numbers of Cars apparently decided by "mileage pro-rate"
among the Carriers party to the particular agreement.
 
In the same era, keep in mind there were East Coast - Texas Pullman routes which involved equipment in the style of Missouri Pacific  
(MP) Eagle services. IIRC, we used to have MOPAC Eagle Cars appearing in B&O schedules passing through Baltimore (ages back).
Perhaps Brother Bowen,  and Wayner, has sorted it all out over the years?
 
.............................Vern........................

 
Mr. Dubin, in SOME CLASSIC TRAINS and MORE CLASSIC TRAINS has quite a bit on that sort of thing. I have both books, and both are - at the moment - buried. I need to excavate them and put them back on the shelf they are supposed to occupy.


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HwyHaulier
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Posts: 3438
Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #12 on: Nov 21st, 2015, 9:19am »
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Clyde - Lodge Members -
 
Ah! To make it easy and convenient, link (here) is Eric Bowen work with his Streamliners site, and its Texas entries...
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/index.html
 
TEXAS SPECIAL the joint service schedule, wherein part of handling via FRISCO (StL S F). The paint colors, with the lightweight  
equipment used a medium Red (definitely not PRR Tuscan Red)...
 
TEXAS EAGLE System. Rather an involved joint service arrangement. Colors used completely different that that of FRISCO
services. Shudda' added: Because the EAGLE System done by St. Louis rival MOPAC...
 
.........................HTH....................Vern............................


« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2015, 11:16am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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ClydeDET
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Re: Color Scheme Question
 
« Reply #13 on: Nov 21st, 2015, 9:55am »
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on Nov 21st, 2015, 9:19am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Clyde - Lodge Members -
 
Ah! To make it easy and convenient, link (here) is Eric Bowen work with his Streamliners site, and its Texas entries...
http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track9/index.html
 
TEXAS SPECIAL the joint service schedule, wherein part of handling via FRISCO (StL S F). The paint colors, with the lightweight  
equipment used a medium Red (definitely not PRR Tuscan Red)...
 
TEXAS EAGLE System. Rather an involved joint service arrangement. Colors used completely different that that of FRISCO
services.
 
.........................HTH....................Vern............................

 
The Eagle had quite a complex operational pattern. And a number of schemes over the streamliner years, getting less complex in every shift until it was a somewhat somber dark blue overall.
 
Eric has done wonders with his site. And a very nice guy, too.


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