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Desperately need help identifying locomotive NY Central
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   Author  Topic: Desperately need help identifying locomotive NY Central  (Read 434 times)
Deborah
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Re: Desperately need help identifying locomotive NY Central
 
« Reply #20 on: Jul 5th, 2016, 11:33am »
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I will throw one more query out on this SYR engine.  
Is the "cab" where the engineer (driver? remember, not very knowledgeable of proper terms) sits, made of wood? And does it follow that it would be painted a contrasting color?, matching color? or would it be varnished wood?
 
Moving forward...I may have two additional engines to inquire about. I don't have the details yet, but I will soon.
 
This forum has been wonderfully responsive.Thank you's  and acknowledgments abound.
 
Deborah


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Just the facts please!
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3440
Re: Desperately need help identifying locomotive NY Central
 
« Reply #21 on: Jul 5th, 2016, 12:43pm »
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Deborah - Lodge Members -
 
The Photos and the Time Line appear to work against possibility of a wood cab for the Engineer and Fireman?
 
This entry from Dr. Richard Leonard work provides this view. Same equipment, a few years after delivery new? Cab apparently  
steel construction? Surely it would be useful to have the Builder Photo from ALCO Files of exactly what it delivered to NYC...
 
http://www.railarchive.net/nyccollection/nyc823_bvg.htm
 
..........................Vern........................


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Norm_Anderson
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Posts: 1726
Re: Desperately need help identifying locomotive NY Central
 
« Reply #22 on: Jul 6th, 2016, 7:53pm »
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Deborah, I again concur with Clyde that a wooden cab is very unlikely.
 
Here is another view of a similar locomotive --this one in color-- that may prove helpful.  It is the same locomotive type, built by the same manufacturer at about the same time, for New York Central subsidiary Michigan Central.  In its lifetime this engine passed through several owners, and was modified several times, but upon its donation to the Henry Ford Museum it was cosmetically restored to as-built condition.  I offer this photo in support of Clyde's conclusions about the coloring of the boiler jacket.  
 
http://www.railroadmichigan.com/henryford1.jpg

 
I would caution, though, that the use of orange paint on the cab of your locomotive is even more unlikely.  Assuming the photo you are working from is unretouched black-and-white, the engine in your photo seems a bit more "workaday."  For example, I think if your engine had those silver-colored ends on the cylinders, they would appear brighter in your photo.  Ditto with the grabirons (handrails).  However, I am no expert in these things.
 
A was intrigued to notice, just now, that in your picture the bell atop the engine's boiler appears upside-down.  This means that the photographer captured the bell while it was being rung (perhaps more or less constantly) as the train trundled down this urban street.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


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HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3440
Re: Desperately need help identifying locomotive NY Central
 
« Reply #23 on: Jul 7th, 2016, 8:31am »
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Norm - Deborah - Lodge Members -
 
"Ah! Now we are getting somewhere!" (Leslie Nielsen in Airplane!)
 
What a great find in Henry Ford Museum! Some basics here. The NYC System with history of much reliance on ALCO Schenectady.  
The Ford Museum Photo of a substantially similar same type. At this late date, may we infer separate NYC Lines each had differing  
standards for their respective power? It all may have become much more unified as a System about 1914 (per readings about Time  
Lines and Histories).
 
So that: The orange cab may have been unique to MICHIGAN CENTRAL? The headlight not the same position compared with Syracuse  
Photo. There may appear to be a possibly different gray in area in front of cab, and in area of firebox. Also, note other distinctions  
reported here in your most recent commentary...
 
Norm - Have a heart here, yes? Can't locate the text explanation on Ford Museum site, respecting the Michigan Central item. Your  
writer is having issues! That is, the MC Locomotive carried a carbide head light? Also, where the fixtures for front end "marker lights"?  
Compare, on the Syracuse view, the unit displays. More, it had an electric headlight (tho the generator is not plainly apparent)?
 
......................HTH & FWIW.................. Vern..............


« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2016, 12:23pm by HwyHaulier » Logged

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Norm_Anderson
Historian
Posts: 1726
Re: Desperately need help identifying locomotive NY Central
 
« Reply #24 on: Jul 7th, 2016, 10:21pm »
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on Jul 7th, 2016, 8:31am, HwyHaulier wrote:       (Click here for original message)

Norm - Have a heart here, yes? Can't locate the text explanation on Ford Museum site, respecting the Michigan Central item. Your  
writer is having issues! That is, the MC Locomotive carried a carbide head light? Also, where the fixtures for front end "marker lights"?  
Compare, on the Syracuse view, the unit displays. More, it had an electric headlight (tho the generator is not plainly apparent)?

 
Vern, I'm sorry to say that I've mislaid the link to the website where I discovered the information about this loco's restoration.  I stumbled across it while scrolling through Google images, hoping to blindly strike paydirt, but when I go back there now, the order of the photos is scrambled, so I've lost the trail of breadcrumbs.
 
I did manage to find this link from the Ford Museum site (which you may have already seen):
 
http://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-collections /artifact/45463

 
(Hmmm . . . when I tested this link, it took me to the "Digital Collections" main page.  I had to type "Locomotive" into the Keyword box, then select "3 Dimensional" from the list of artifacts.)
 
However, this link contains little information on the loco's travels and restoration (this was not the site I accessed before).
 
As to to your questions, I'm not sure what type of headlight is on the Michigan Central loco-- could it in fact be oil burning, with an oil reservoir at the base and a small "chimney" at the top?  The mountings for the "markers" on the NYC&HR loco may have been add-ons to conform to NYC&HR practices.  As for the generators and blowers, might they be out of sight on the far side of the boiler?
 
I also managed to locate a photo of the cab interior of this locomotive, which I present here in the interest of curiosity.
 
http://www.railpictures.net/photo/292520

 
When this loco was in service, it's a safe bet the cab interior was not this pristine, but it shows off the brasswork to good advantage.  I am intrigued by the two firedoors-- perhaps, to get the engine up to speed quickly, the Head Brakeman would sometimes grab a shovel and help out??
 
Deborah, I am spending a bit of time with this locomotive because it bears such a close resemblance to your No. 3897 (or 3837).  I discovered that during this time period the New York Central System ordered over 300 locomotives of this type, so the American Locomotive Company (ALCo) would have been cranking them out as quickly as the factory at Schenectady could manage-- meaning that the basic design and features would probably have been highly uniform.  All of that to say that this Michigan Central engine is, for all practical purposes, an identical twin to your locomotive in Syracuse (but without that orange paint on the cab!).
 
Some further info regarding the cab interior (again, just for interest):  At this time, it took five people to operate a train.  This was true of freight trains as well as passenger trains.  Three people rode in the locomotive.  The Engineer sat on the right side of the cab (facing forward), and was responsible for the safe operation of the train over the track.  The Fireman sat on the left side, and was responsible for the performance of the locomotive (keeping the fire hot, an adequate supply of water for steam, and lubrication of the various bearings and other moving parts).  The Head Brakeman was responsible to manually operate switches and junctions, as needed.  At the rear of the train were two more people-- the Conductor, who was the true "Captain" of the train (the Engineer drove on the Conductor's orders), and the Rear Brakeman, whose job was to re-line any manual switches that were opened by the Head Brakeman.  In freight trains, these two people rode in the Caboose.  On Passenger trains, they rode among the passengers.
 
 
Regards,
 
Norm


« Last Edit: Jul 8th, 2016, 1:34am by Norm_Anderson » Logged
HwyHaulier
Historian
Posts: 3440
Re: Desperately need help identifying locomotive NY Central
 
« Reply #25 on: Jul 8th, 2016, 6:54am »
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Norm - Deborah - Lodge Members -
 
WOW! So what you have determined, ALCO had something of a "Master Order" for three hundred (300) of the newer design  
(in the time) "Atlantic" 4-4-2 types. Clearly, it worked on the orders for years...
 
Some supporting points? The MICHIGAN CENTRAL (NYC System) piece surely one of the earliest units, supplanting the  
older 4-4-0 types (see 999). On it, we see what is either an oil or carbide head light. And so, of course, there were no electric  
marker lights displayed. The FORD unit did not have a generator, so to power electric fixtures. (An episode of "Pawn Stars"  
explained the problems with carbide lamps.)
 
So that the view at Syracuse of a NYC&HRRR locomotive suggests it was later build. That piece of power evidently with  
electric head light and marker lights. Other new advances, the NYC&HRRR unit likely had the fixtures to collect water from  
track pans? (See the Edison movie clip of 1905?) (In the era, archrival PRR had introduced track pans, too.)
 
Misc Note: In the continuing process of building of its NYC SYSTEM? Quite possibly, as the various Lines brought into the  
SYSTEM, the acquired firms with some autonomy and latitude in the manners in which each operated. Reported histories  
(much can be located in 'Net searches), apparently a more rational combining ca. 1914. (Just as well. First World War  
placed enormous demands on the Railroads.)
 
...............................HTH.................. Vern.........................


« Last Edit: Jul 8th, 2016, 7:22am by HwyHaulier » Logged

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