Railfan.net Home Railfan Photos ABPR Archives Staff Safari Photos Railfan Links

Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please Sign In or Register. Nov 24th, 2017, 11:19am
Categories •  FastIndex •  LongIndex •  Help •  Search •  Members  •  Sign In •  Register


building a 1-1/2" gondola
   Railfan.net Web Forums
   Model Railroading
   Live Steam and Ride on Scales
(Moderators: moose_the_caboose, Brian Tusin)
   building a 1-1/2" gondola
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2 3  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint
   Author  Topic: building a 1-1/2" gondola  (Read 1356 times)
belmontnyrailfan
Railfan
View Profile  

Posts: 129
building a 1-1/2" gondola
  101_0044.jpg - 79752 Bytes
« on: Nov 17th, 2010, 5:33pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

This will be my first project. I will buy a set of trucks and couplers, and build the rest. It will hopefully look like this car that I scratchbuilt in O gauge a few years ago, but instead of styrene plastic shapes I will use steel tubing . First a pic of the half-finished O gauge car showing the framework...

http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/101_0044.jpg
Click Image to Resize

Logged
belmontnyrailfan
Railfan
View Profile  

Posts: 129
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
  101_0059.jpg - 95057 Bytes
« Reply #1 on: Nov 17th, 2010, 6:07pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

... and the finished O-gauge car. Recommendations on tubing size for the frame would be appreciated, as well as any other comments.
 
Thanks,
Jon


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/101_0059.jpg
Click Image to Resize

Logged
moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1484
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #2 on: Nov 18th, 2010, 7:04pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

hi all,
 
jon:  nice project!  you're on the right track.  not enough time tonight to lay it out for you, but stay tuned.
 
moose


Logged

moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1484
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #3 on: Nov 20th, 2010, 11:03am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

hi all,
 
jon:  as my buddy pockets says, "HoooooKaaay, try this!"  since we here on railfan have no knowledge of your building skills, we'll start with the basics.  remember, our goal is to get you through the building process...successfully.  to start, there are a number of questions you need to ask yourself and answer for us.
 
1. your gondola project is a good one to start with, but what prototype are you basing is on?  can you post a picture of it?  
 
2. what are the prototype dimensions?  modeling in the smaller scales is great, but material specs and dimensions don't always scale up.
 
3. will the car be functional as a cargo hauler?  what's the cargo? how much weight and where in the car will it ride?
 
4. what trucks will it ride on?  what manufacturer?
 
5. what couplers will it use?  what manufacturer?
 
6. were you planning to build the car-body first, then the running chassis?
 
there are many more questions to be asked and answered...the crew here on railfan will have more to ask.  there's more to be done even before the first materials are gathered.  personally, i usually don't draft up a plan, but to help you stay focused, you may want to.
 
how would i approach this project?  
 
1.  review and commit the ibls wheel and coupler recommendations to heart and paper.
 
2.  build the chassis, first!  that means, obtaining the trucks and couplers that you are going to use.  when you've done that, you have committed to working and completing your project.
 
what and how should your first chassis look like?  well, there's a roaring arguement in the live steam community about how to even screw in a screw...this is why we recommend that you find a mentor local to you.  one whose equipment operates flawlessly and reliably.  that person is usually one who doesn't boast or brag about what he or she has.  no doubt, until your skill sets have reached a point to where you can build prototypical chassis', you'll want to start with a 1"x2" thin-wall tubing chassis like the one pictured below. (my apologies to those who've seen these photos of the western maryland caboose on the 'building railcars with moose the caboose' thread, but it bares repeating here.)
 
 

 
the pic above shows the main centersill, cross bolsters, coupler pockets, and safety-chain i-bolt anchors.  this chassis is dead simple to do with hand tools and a welder.  there will be certain variables that will make your chassis different than mine...we'll discuss them once your prototype dimensions are known.
 
whether you chose a wood body or a metal body, it is your choice, your pocketbook and your skill set.  as the photo below shows, the body is secondary and could be changed on a whim.  the precision is in the chassis...it must keep the couplers at the correct height and allow them lateral and vertical movement.  the chassis must also allow the trucks to move as well.  
 

 
this is where having the trucks available pays dividends.  you can't complete the chassis without knowing and understanding how to build the kingpin bolster pad.  the photo below shows one of my iterations for building bolster pads.  i promised early on that i would show the process by which i would build my cars...warts and all.  while i'm not proud of the welding job i did, it worked.  every skill set takes practice.  the bolster pad was required because not all live steam rail truck vendors use the same bolster specs.  so it will be important for you to let us know what and who's truck you are using.
 
 

 
this is enough for today...plenty of questions to ask and answer, keep'em coming!
 
moose


Logged

belmontnyrailfan
Railfan
View Profile  

Posts: 129
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #4 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 12:03am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Moose,
First of all, thank you for taking the time to help me with this project.  
 
My goal for this project is to have a reliable, solid car that will carry me around and look more like an actual gon than a box on wheels.
 
To answer your questions:
1. the prototype would be an ex-army gon now used by the Arcade and Attica RR as an open car on their passenger excursions. I don't have any good pics in my files. I am not necessarily committed to that particular car at this point though...
 
2. I know it is a 40' gon, but don't have exact dimensions. I do have family and friends near the railroad who could measure and photograph the car for me.
 
3. The "cargo" weighs about 180 pounds, and will be sitting in the middle of the car.
 
4 & 5. I am thinking of going with Tom Bee's bettendorf trucks, and a pair of his couplers.
 
6. Chassis first. This factor may delay the start of the project due to the initial cost, but it seems that it will be "worth the wait".
 
Since this will be a riding car I am more concerned with strength than "scale dimensions", but I do want it to "look nice". I chose the "composite" design (steel framework with wooden sides and floor) because I like that look, but I am not sure how strong it will be.
 
Thanks again,
Jon


Logged
fresnojay
TRAINing
Posts: 21
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #5 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 5:55pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Just thought I would post that I am going to be wathcing this thread carefully. I recently bought 4 wooden gon bodies which the previous owner had built entirely out of wood. They are strong and have carried "cargo"   but am looking at dressing them up as they are as previously mentioned rolling boxes. Plus I want to add a steel center sill, bolsters, coupler pockets, and safety chain points as all of these currently are wood which is not allowed at certain clubs here in the west.
 
Anyhow will be watching and learning. Thanks for starting this thread.
 
Jason


Logged
moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1484
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #6 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 7:53pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

hi all,
 
jon:  keep looking!  what you want is out there...you are doing research.  think, there are groups out there that have the info you are looking for.  that's part of the fun of being a 'shop rat'!
 
tom bee's trucks are a nice choice.  his trucks are one of the standards for 1/8th scale hobby.  you'll find that you'll have to add @ 3/8" (0.375") bolster pad to your center sill.  you'll also have to add bolster side bearings (as seen in the 3rd picture) as well.  however good tom bee's trucks are, there are others who make trucks that are a little more unique to the hobby.  check out mark unfreid's barber trucks under the ic caboose now in possession of steamheaton.  wonderful and different!  when your car is finished...make it shine against a dull background of what everybody else in hobby does.
 
jason:  glad to know that you are watching here on railfan.  about your purchases, while i fully understand your enthusiasm and desire to get in the hobby fast, you've run up against something you hadn't counted on.  that being individual track rules about car construction.  each club or private railroad has a set of rules that in some cases are common to everyone and in others, unique to them.  the rules were created to maintain a safe track and environment to run in.  what that means is, they consider your cars unsafe and that means you are limited as to where you could run your cars per the rules of the individual tracks.  i consider this a lesson that you've learned...possibly, expensively.  however, there is a bright side...you spoke up at the next 'right' time.  just wish you would have asked/spoken prior to spending the money.  
 
to jon and jason:  as this thread progresses, you'll find the old hands here giving you some sage advice....think about what they are saying before replying.  what we speak about will be without ego or bullsh@@t.  your first piece of advice, before anything is done in the shop, find a local mentor.  understand that it is just like being an apprentice...you aren't his/her equal...do trackwork to THEIR specifications!  understanding track geometry will make your chassis' that much better for operation.  your mentor will also guide your car construction skill sets.  
 
you'll find that to a person, every old hand here on railfan...does trackwork, it's that important!  i don't care whether you build cars or locomotives, you MUST understand the total environment that is at work.  don't be like a lot of the 'chequebook' modelers who think that they know trackwork because they 'bought' their way into the hobby...and besides, their equipment isn't at fault, it's always the track.  if you talk to the better live steamers, you'll find that on a track where thousands upon thousands of axles have run without problems, one guy's equipment derails.  that's the guy who will say that the track is at fault.  DON'T BE THAT GUY!  THAT'S THE 'CHEQUEBOOK MODELER'!   learn everything you can and be the guy who can quietly pick up the tools and provide a reliable fix to just about any problem.  know this, a mentor doesn't have to be older than you...there are several people here that are some of the best trackmen i've ever run across...and they started as young kids in the hobby.
 
don't be rushed into completing a project.  do it right, do it well, and do it because you enjoy the process.  that's what a 'shop rat' does!  there's no greater joy than spending time in the shop and sharing with others.  comraderie among REAL live steamers is a joy i wish for everyone to experience.  your success is our joy.
 
moose


Logged

fresnojay
TRAINing
Posts: 21
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #7 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 9:09pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Moose,
 
You do offer very wise and insightfull words and information. I also have seen the said dreaded modeller you speak of   . I do not intend to become him no worries there . These cars I bought are not really putting me behind that much as this was actually already expected and planned on. I just didn't know exactly how to go about it. But this is where I figured I could learn from the boards, forums, etc. from folks and legends like yourself. As a side bonus on this journey found out my dad was a welder by trade for many years before I was born so he offered to teach me how to weld. He has also allowed me to basically setup a shop in his garage since he owns his home. It seems this has sparked the interest inside him again as well. The purchase I made was extremely cheap from all I have talked with and initial investment was has not set me back much at all.
 
Anyhow enough talking from me. Time to ask a couple questions and listen.
 
1. What is the commonly accepted tubing dimensions WxHxT used for car frames? Material I would guess is steel, but what grade? Hot Rolled, Cold Rolled?
 
2. Recommended welding type. Brazzing, Arc, Mig? My dad said he has done all these so anything is game.
 
3. What is the bolster pad material like in your pics?
 
Thanks in advance,
Jason
 
P.S. Sorry hope I am not thread jacking.


Logged
ErieAtlantic7597
Historian
Posts: 5838
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #8 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 9:22pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify


 
   Jon and Jason,
 
   I was staying out of this thread at first because I'm more of a repair/ rebuild/improve type 'mechanic' in our hobby. I don't have the abilities that George T. or Peter B. do for building from scratch. This being said, I cannot agree more with the very good advise given both of you from George T. Oh, there are a few threads here at railfan.net that not only tell about building car bodys but also show the details in pictures.  
 
   So many folks in our hobby don't seem to realize that the tracks and the trains (cars,locomotives) HAVE to work together. For an intant ,all along the track, the rolling stock and the fixed plant become a machine together as the equipment rolls along. AND it all has to work correctly. Otherwise your on the ground. As i like to say, "this is a fun hobby,,,,,,until the stuff is off the track, then the fun is over".
 
   Also, find a good non- boastful guy that has equipment running constantly and dependably. You can learn a lot from folks like that. And please, don't tell them how much you know. Try to find out how much THEY know by listening instead of talking.  
 
   BTW, Jon, I like the choice of the composite cars. During the second world war, the RRs used quite a few types of this car. Box cars, gons, hoppers, and even composite cabooses. Steel had to go to war material uses, so a spider work of steel frame work was constructed and wood used to fill in the open spaces. Neat looking cars. I look forward to your project.
 
   Bruce


Logged
pockets
Historian
Posts: 1224
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #9 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 9:56pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Jon & Jason,
I can only echo Bruce's remarks. You can do a lot worse than to follow Moosie's guidance. We have a little shop time, together, and he knows his stuff. His rolling stock WORKS.
 
I've heard Moose called many things.... Called him a few, myself, but legend....?!  
 
Greg B.


Logged


Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3826
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #10 on: Nov 21st, 2010, 11:50pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Hi, all.
 
I still look over your shoulders ever so often, even though it has been a long time since I have had anything to say.  After all, I do not do any of this stuff.  However, reading some the things Bruce had to say about track in the past, it is amazing some of the similarities between the full size rail world and the large scale model world.  
 
To Jon and Jay:  Take Bruce's advice fully to heart.  Particularly finding someone who is non-boastful.  I would add to that, stay away from someone who spends more time telling what everybody else is doing wrong than giving real guidance about what works.  There are plenty of people out there who like to make a big mystique out of stuff so as to inflate their own importance.  Stay away from these characters.
 
Generally, you have to get the guy that really knows the stuff to start talking.  The self-important you have more trouble getting to shut up.  
 
Hint:  the guys with the big write ups in the technical literature are not always the best in their field.  The ones that are best, are usually too busy doing to write about it.  


« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2010, 11:51pm by George_Harris » Logged
pockets
Historian
Posts: 1224
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #11 on: Nov 23rd, 2010, 8:38pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Jon,
After George H's post I was apprehensive about this one, but after some prodding from another moderator, here goes nothing.
 
Above, you will see the accepted norm in 1/8 scale underframes. As has been proven under thousands of cars, this provides a very serviceable chassis.
 
Although I am not a standard gauge modeler, I have a soft spot for the wartime composite construction cars. I, too, was an O scale scratch builder ( working in styrene and wood until my mentors led me into brass. Life hasn't been the same since!   ) and can totally relate to your gon.
 
 The underframes (sills, bolsters and stringers ) were a remarkable, riveted fabrication. That center sill would be fabricated in one of several possible ways. A favored method was the use of angle iron and plates riveted into parallel I beams connected by plates, creating a box section. Depending on the design capacity, this sill could be relatively shallow and straight, from end to end. Alternatively, It could be of deeper section, in the center, and taper up at the ends for truck clearance. This was known as the fish belly center sill and may have been replicated with the side sills, as well.
 
Just some food for thought.....
 
Greg B.
 


Logged


Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
Dan Watson
Historian
Posts: 354
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
  CompositeGondolaAresize.jpg - 67787 Bytes
« Reply #12 on: Nov 23rd, 2010, 10:05pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Jon,
Here is a copy of the drawing of a composite gondola from the 1922 Car Builder's Cyclopedia, which may help with your project.  The image is a little fuzzy because of the limitations of images posted here.  If you want a higher-resolution file, PM me your email address.
Good luck with your project.  Freight cars from this era are of great interest to me.


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/CompositeGondolaAresize.jpg
Click Image to Resize

« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2010, 10:14pm by Dan Watson » Logged
Dan Watson
Historian
Posts: 354
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
  CompositeGondolaBresize.jpg - 56076 Bytes
« Reply #13 on: Nov 23rd, 2010, 10:06pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Here is the end view.

http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/CompositeGondolaBresize.jpg
Click Image to Resize

Logged
Dan Watson
Historian
Posts: 354
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
  CompositeGonRibs.jpg - 28569 Bytes
« Reply #14 on: Nov 23rd, 2010, 10:33pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

By the way, I notice from the photos of these composite gons, that the diagonal braces generally slope one way from the end of the car to the middle, and then slope the other way from there to the other end of the car.  The drawings don't really show that detail.

http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/CompositeGonRibs.jpg
Click Image to Resize

Logged
George_Harris
Historian
Posts: 3826
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #15 on: Nov 24th, 2010, 12:06am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Nov 23rd, 2010, 8:38pm, pockets wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Jon,
After George H's post I was apprehensive about this one, but after some prodding from another moderator, here goes nothing.

Believe me, Greg:  The words were definitely not aimed at you.  
 
I don't know when, if ever, I wil have the time and money to get involved with this stuff, but I definitely enjoy reading all the things the people on here have to say.  
 
By the way, concerning the diagonals on the gon all going the same way toward the middle:  That has them all in compression, except the one from over the trucks toward the end of car, which is tension.


Logged
moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1484
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #16 on: Nov 24th, 2010, 9:16pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

hi all,
 
jason:  let's see...
 
1.  common chassis steel is 1"x2" thin-wall tubing.  watch out for the thick wall!  just about all the tubing has an inner-seam weld, it's that weld that gets in the way of your couplers.  in an earlier post, i suggested that the trucks and couplers be acquired first.  being able to take one of the couplers with you to the steel yard will allow you to buy the steel that you can really use.  cold rolled or hot rolled?  not necessarily applicable for this application.  why?  at most steel yards, tubing is tubing.  they don't really define it any further than high carbon or low carbon steel...if even that.  if they do, man, what a yard they must be!
 
2.  welding?  you can do whatever floats your boat...but the recommended method is stick or mig welding.  stick welding on light gauge steel requires a finer skill set than mig welding does.  both types of welding are well worth spending the time to acquire the skills.  when you build your chassis, allow your dad to teach you the basics and the finer points of both methods.  you're gonna remember the time you spend with him in the future.  practice, practice, practice!
 
3.  the bolster pad material?  lol!  5/16 & 3/8 fender washers!  once i establish a rolling chassis, it is time to make sure that chassis works with the trucks and suspension.  the car needs to be able to rock no more than 0.25" maximum deflection for each side of the vehicle.  in other words, no more than 0.500 maximum deflection from bolster bearing to bolster bearing.  normally, since the most common truck that i use are the tom bees, the pad wants to be a piece of 0.375 steel.  but, and there is always a but...even tom bee has a bad day once in a while, so it must be measured and the differences accounted for.  with that done, you must also keep an eye on coupler height.  ibls recommended height is 4.4375" from the top of the railhead to the absolute centerline of the coupler.  however, as recommended by an old friend, john b, if you plan to run at tracks that haul a lot of 'cattle', make your absolute centerling distance at 4.375" to account for the suspension compression of the 'cattle' cars.  the choice is yours...just make it before you build.  and make it with the estimated weight of the body on the chassis, suspension deflection will affect outcome.  now, with all that out of the way, you still need a floating bearing surface...that's where you can use a fender washer.  a word of caution, mic out the washers 'cause most of them aren't true flat.  that tiny bit of angle WILL bite you...ask me how i know!
 
on Nov 21st, 2010, 9:09pm, fresnojay   wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Moose,
 
You do offer very wise and insightfull words and information. I also have seen the said dreaded modeller you speak of   . I do not intend to become him no worries there . These cars I bought are not really putting me behind that much as this was actually already expected and planned on. I just didn't know exactly how to go about it. But this is where I figured I could learn from the boards, forums, etc. from folks and legends like yourself. As a side bonus on this journey found out my dad was a welder by trade for many years before I was born so he offered to teach me how to weld. He has also allowed me to basically setup a shop in his garage since he owns his home. It seems this has sparked the interest inside him again as well. The purchase I made was extremely cheap from all I have talked with and initial investment was has not set me back much at all.
 
Anyhow enough talking from me. Time to ask a couple questions and listen.
 
1. What is the commonly accepted tubing dimensions WxHxT used for car frames? Material I would guess is steel, but what grade? Hot Rolled, Cold Rolled?
 
2. Recommended welding type. Brazzing, Arc, Mig? My dad said he has done all these so anything is game.
 
3. What is the bolster pad material like in your pics?
 
Thanks in advance,
Jason
 
P.S. Sorry hope I am not thread jacking.

 
jon:  everything above applies.  know this, what pockets, george h, bruce r and the others are saying is true.  now, after seeing your small scale model and dan's posting of the usra composite gon,  i can tell you that there is a lot of data out there for you.  you also have an eye for the 'art' of a model.  in the due course of time, we will be pushing you to do finer and better work.  everybody has their own journey and travels at their own pace.  as my friends here on railfan and those whom i share close friendships with push me to move on down the road to where i want to be, so will i push you.  in time, you will be able to build as your skills and artistic sense tell you to.  don't get too excited...it's a long hard journey...one that we are going to share with you.  what's one of the things that you can do for your self?  education....and share with us what you learn and where you found it in our 'edumacation' thread, just be mindful of copyright issues.
 
being a 'shop rat' is a heck of a lot of fun!
 
moose


Logged

belmontnyrailfan
Railfan
View Profile  

Posts: 129
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #17 on: Nov 24th, 2010, 10:15pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Wow. Lots of good info here. Thanks to all who have contributed so far.
 
Dan: love the drawings, lots of food for thought... look for a PM with my e-mail.
 
Maybe I can persuade my Dad to take a tape measure with him the next time he visits the Arcade and Attica RR.


Logged
fresnojay
TRAINing
Posts: 21
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #18 on: Nov 25th, 2010, 12:59pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Moose,
 
Thanks for the answers and info. As well as all the other members that have chimed in.
 
I do not currently have a set of trucks and have been tossing up fabbing my own but for now I may shelve that idea until I get schooled a bit in all things required. I do however have a pair of couplers that came on one of the cars. I also plan on visiting RMI as they are local to pick up another set or 2 so I know how they will work in the tubing as well.  
 
I do have a local builder friend as well as a few other people I met at my first meet that also live in the area. I will be talking to them over the next few days to find the yards they visit when looking for material. I should after the holidays be able to get a pair of trucks to go with the couplers to be able to get the frame figured like you mentioned.
 
As for the bolster pad material. Good to know about the washers. But I was wondering about the plastic looking material you had pictured. A gentleman I met from LALS at my last meet mentioned that thier riding cars used Delrin pads with a light layer of grease on the bolsters. All but eliminated thier issue with cars on the ground. So thats why I was asking.
 
Thanks a million to all,
Jason


Logged
belmontnyrailfan
Railfan
View Profile  

Posts: 129
Re: building a 1-1/2" gondola
 
« Reply #19 on: Jan 2nd, 2011, 2:23pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

I've put some of what is in my head on paper, but don't have a way to post it here right now. My laptop won't even boot up  . Hopefully it will be fixed soon as I would really like to hear your thoughts on my design ideas...
 
Jon


Logged
Pages: 1 2 3  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint

« Previous topic | Next topic »