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Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
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   Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
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   Author  Topic: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops  (Read 6824 times)
pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #40 on: Mar 10th, 2010, 8:09pm »
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Just a teaser for tonight. The above piece is the start of the top center panel for the radiator shell. Like Bruce R., I tend to think of the camera after the fact. However, if you are going to make that piece, you need the tool in the next photo.
 

 
The above shot is of a 24" brake that I built almost twenty years ago. Not too pretty, but hell for stout. It handles 16ga. stainless, full width.
 
That little raised lip, on the workpiece starts as a 1/16" radius bend in the brake after the copper has been annealed to dead soft. Then, a 1/8"dia steel rod is used as a buck and the copper is formed over it GENTLY. I used only finger pressure and three annealings. Then you get to trim dead soft copper into a straight line, because the steel rod drifted a bit.
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #41 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 8:10am »
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After some cussin' an' fussin and some trimin' and fittin', it's time for a looksee. The camera sat on the bench while I made a cardboard pattern, did the layout and cut the copper..... Dang thing never took one picture!
 
 

 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #42 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 8:29am »
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Now for the next piece. Though incorrectin style, the full size piece contains all of the critical measurements. Get the numbers, make a sketch and refer to prototype photos for pretty.
 
 

 
Sorry about the blurry photography. If you look carefully, you can see how the numbers became lines on the block of Black Walnut. This will become the hammer form for the bottom of the shell.
 
Greg B.
 
 


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
pockets
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Posts: 1224
Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #43 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 8:34am »
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Here it is after a few laps through the drillpress and around the bandsaw. Now is not the time to be bashful with the sandpaper. Every flaw in the hammer form will be transferred to the copper. The working edge of the hammer form will be hit with a round over bit in the router.
 
 

 
Greg B.


« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2010, 9:07am by pockets » Logged


Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
pockets
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Posts: 1224
Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #44 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 8:36am »
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Charlie tt, Moosey has sent you an im.
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
pockets
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Posts: 1224
Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #45 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 11:21am »
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Here it is with a 6" scale to give a little perspective.
 
 

 
 
Back to the original hammer form to line everything up and do any last minute head scratching.
 



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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
pockets
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Posts: 1224
Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #46 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 11:29am »
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A little beatin', bashin', and trimin' and we end up about here. The basic pieces for shell are roughed in.
 
 

 
 
Pondering the simple fact that the easy part is done! Now the planishing, smoothing and trimming can begin as none of these parts are near finished.
 
Greg B.
 
 


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
ConrailRed9504
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #47 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 12:28pm »
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Man that's looking AWESOME!!  
Russ


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pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #48 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 1:16pm »
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Thanks, Russ,
I take a lot of pleasure in abusing a piece of metal until it shows me what I want to see
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
ErieAtlantic7597
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #49 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 6:51pm »
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     Nice, VERY nice !!!!!!


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pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #50 on: Mar 11th, 2010, 6:59pm »
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Bruce,
Coming from a builder who surrounds himself with builders, I take that as high praise, indeed. Thank you.
 
Greg B.


« Last Edit: Mar 11th, 2010, 7:02pm by pockets » Logged


Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
SteamHeaton
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #51 on: Mar 12th, 2010, 10:31am »
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Greg, beautiful work.   Thanks for showing us your amazing skills, with sheet metal.  Nice  brake too.  Looking forward to this project as it moves along . Ray III

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BobbyT
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #52 on: Mar 12th, 2010, 12:30pm »
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Greg, I wish you were a lot closer so I could witness you in action. That is truly a lost art. Very nice indeed.

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pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #53 on: Mar 12th, 2010, 1:28pm »
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Ray and Bobby,
Thanks so much. However, believe me when I say that there is nothing amazing, or lost, about this art. When you dip into the smaller scales and, in particular, the automotive scratchbuilders you realize just how "average" I am. Guys like Harry Wade and Jack Bodenman really keep me humble. Back in the day, when I was in O scale, the gang I ran with were some serious scratchbuilders. They got me started on shaping and forming non-ferrous metal.
 
Thanks again,
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
moose_the_caboose
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #54 on: Mar 13th, 2010, 8:28pm »
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hi all,
 
i may have been silent, but i'm not gone!  pockets and i talk almost on a daily basis about this project and so many other things.   so yes, even though i know a little of what he's going to post, i'm humbled by his openess and candor to take on a project using methods that others would consider too hard and antiquated.  i'm also humbled by the fact that he's willing to share with me and you what he likes to do, problem-solve.  when i wire an electric loco for operation, yes, there's some art to getting the electrons to flow where i want them in a safe and effective manner.  when it comes to pushing metal around, it's the combination of art and the energy of pushing, pulling, stretching and compacting the metal until it takes the shape you want.  i'm simplifying it here, but the processes you are watching are those that with artful thought, education, skills development, repetition of efforts and seeing what you want the metal to be, show it can be done.  process is process...someone had to be the first to try.
 
even as i am awed at what he's teaching us, i hope to take a little of what i've learned and create better models in the future.  thanks, pockets, i'm enjoying the journey!
 
since moose meadows #5 is being worked on in michigan and in florida, it's time to talk about and show you where my part of this journey is leading to...learning home metalcasting.
 
LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR!  DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!  i'm doing this out of need and a desire to learn to create my own parts.  i don't take this activity lightly!  Death or severe injury can and may result!
 
for some time now, i'll wanted to have appropriate cast-iron stoves to the cars that i build.  unfortunately, there aren't stoves on the market to my liking.  the upshot of learning to cast parts for the model t project is that i'll be able to have the stoves of my choosing available when i want them.  the need for specialty parts makes home metalcasting necessary.  on 2-20-2010, i spent the morning with a friend introduced to me several years ago by pockets.  shad h started his hobby of metalcasting a couple of years ago out of curiosity.  he was and continues to experiment with electronically 'fired' furnacses, but in the interim, he's developed a propane furnace that could be built from 'big box' hardware store parts.  for heating and melting aluminum, it's effective.  it can't generate enough btu's for the fuel expended to be efficient with bronze or iron.
 
our first step was to create our casting sands (sand, bentonite clay) and start 'mulling'.  mulling is the act of mixing and breaking clumps down to base grains of casting sand.  once the parts are 'rammed up', density of the sand should be to same...as much as can be done.  small pockets of variying densities won't may for a good casting.
 

 
in this picture, the patterns have already been 'rammed' in both the 'cope' and 'drag'.  the 'cope' and the 'drag' where separated and the patterns carefully removed.  for this particular test, only a pour hole was created with a fill trace to the parts mold.  normally, another vent would be created to control the exit of steam and other gases not to mention allow us to control how much metal to pour.  due to the fact that the 'parts' we were pouring were of an experimental nature, a down-and-dirty cope and drag were made from wood...don't do this for anything more than aluminum...and for safety's sake, not even for that!  a leak in the system or even a 'blow-out' can ruin your day.  copes and drags must of need have a way to hold the pattern in 'registration'.  if things don't get lined-up....
 

 
the photo below shows the furnace set up in a sand box.  the cope and drag would normally be set up beside it, but our initial pour was to create aluminum ingots.  the mantra of home metalcasting....NO LIQUIDS NEAR THE CASTING AREA!
 

 
here's a look into the fiery inferno as melt #3 starts.
 

 
here's the results of melt #2 once it had cooled...parts for shad h.
 

 
...and what about melt #3?  well, it was my opportunity to play in the dirt, mull the casting sand, ram up a pattern, and pour.  moose meadows #5 needs a few cast parts, so we did an experiment to see if we had all the components right for a good pour.
 

 
the photo above shows an original radiator cap for a model t (on the left) and our casting (on the right).  lots of things right, but lots of things that need improving before i'm call it a nice casting.  thanks to dan watson and others for helping guide our progress and keep an eye on safety.  shad and i have a lot to learn, but wer'e on the road.
 
moose


« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2010, 8:40pm by moose_the_caboose » Logged

Dick_Morris
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #55 on: Mar 14th, 2010, 12:34am »
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Looking good!
 
Some comments on casting aluminum and the zinc alloys, which are the ones I have experience with -  
 
In my opinion, your warnings are a bit on the cautious side. Running a mill, lathe, tablesaw, router, or welder all have the potential of really ruining your day. Casting is no different. In my opinion, if you take the time to become aware of the hazards and how to avoid them and take common sense safety precautions, casting isn't  inherently more hazardous than many of the other shop practices. As the temperatures get higher, as with bronze or cast iron, or as the size of castings gets bigger, the hazards increase.  
 
Your comment about liquids - particularly water - is on the mark. Even a misplaces drop of sweat in molten metal can get really exciting.
 
I've used Petrobond oil bonded sand in all my efforts. It makes excellent castings. On a good day, you can sometimes see the slight image of a fingerprint in the casting where you pressed your thumb on the mold. I paid around $50 about 12 years ago for a 100 pound bag from a foundy supply in L.A.  Fifty pounds almost fills a five gallon bucket. There is a home brew recipe for an oil sand developed by a university casting program called Kbond that is supposed to be perform equivalently.  
 
Wooden flasks work fine and many people use them, but you need to consider them to be expendable. If you leave a half inch or so of sand between the cavity in the mold and the edqe of the flask, they don't have a problem. If you cast in a place where the occasional fire won't cause a problem they work just fine. Much of what I have cast has been in wooden flasks. They are easy to make, expecially when you need an unusual size. A misrun of the molten metal is irritating, but isn't a big deal as long as the escaping metal has a safe place to go, like the dry sand you were working on.  
 
I make my wooden flasks with metal guide pins to register the cope and drag. I like to use split  patterns on match plates, which requires the use of guide pins. Although the pattern is more work, the molding is much easier. I posted a photo of a pattern on a match plate on your caboose thread.
 
A suggestion from someone who is an expert in casting (he teaches it at a university) and occasionally posts to the casting email groups is to use a kitchen mixer to mull small batches of sand.
 
That's a neat design for a foundry. I'm just finishing a new one built to a published design that uses a propane tank for the shell and is lined with castable refractory. Just today I was firing it for the first time and slowly ramping up the temperature to drive the water out. While watching it cook I was making a set of crucible tongs and tomorrow I'll make the pouring shank.


« Last Edit: Mar 14th, 2010, 12:43am by Dick_Morris » Logged
moose_the_caboose
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #56 on: Mar 14th, 2010, 4:54pm »
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hi all,
 
dick:  many thanks for your comments and response.  as a student of metal melting, i'll be in 'learning mode' for a long time to come.  the reason for the disclaimer is that unlike other live steam boards on the internet, we become one of the first stops for newbies just getting interested in the hobby.  as you know, there are other boards where unless you have the experience and the knowledge, separating fact from opinion, process from madness, or useful information from bullc@#p, finding the truth is a daunting task.  you and i are among those who accept the risks involved in metal melting.  we pick and fight our battles using the knowledge and wisdom we've gained over the years.   as an educator....and do i hate that phrase, i have to prepare those who would follow in my footsteps.  to our youngest members, i would be remiss by not pointing out the dangers.  i like to think that this board is where skills and tasks are first tried.  
 
so, moose meadows #5 is a first for me in many ways.  my good friend pockets, is showing skills that don't see a lot of use and aren't normally used in live steaming as a whole.  with yours and dan w's invaluable advice, the metal melting will no doubt, improve.
 
to all:  dick m. makes a valid point about warnings about anything we do in the shop.  mis-use a process, machine, or material and that dog bites pretty hard!  there's phrase that i like to use once in awhile 'if at first you don't succeed, then maybe skydiving isn't for you!'  there are a few hobbies where 'oops?!' isn't the word you want to hear...especially while skydiving or metal melting.
 
 
moose


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pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #57 on: Mar 18th, 2010, 9:37pm »
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Another progress report on MMLC #5, accompanied by the obligatory whining. Ol' Moosey got to extemporizing, one night, on the possibilities available in a LARGE model of a small prototype. Without giving anything away, let's just say that this shell would have been a lot easier to build had I known, up front, that a complete radiator had to fill it! Well, onward and upward....
 
First we need a hole roughly centered at the top of the shell. I'm here to tell you that this thing, at this stage of construction is VERY delicate. I had to put it back in the hammer form and grab that in a vise before I could run a drill through it. Characteristic of sheet metal, this left a nice triangular hole. Not to worry, a sharp countersink, held in an oversize pin vise made the hole useable.
 
 
 


« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2010, 10:05pm by pockets » Logged


Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
pockets
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Posts: 1224
Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #58 on: Mar 18th, 2010, 10:03pm »
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This update has been unceremoniously interrupted because the pics need resizing. What with my being blissfully computer illiterate, that becomes Moosey's job.
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
pockets
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Posts: 1224
Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #59 on: Mar 20th, 2010, 6:16pm »
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Okay, we'll try this again.
 
Once the hole was opened up sufficiently, I grabbed a 10-24 screw and nut along with a pair of fender washers. After annealing the area around the hole, I sandwiched the copper between the washers, with the screw passed through the whole mess. One of the nice things about LARGE SCALE is the ability to use real tools. Using two 3/8" sockets and ratchets I put as much squeeze on those washers as that #10 screw had to offer. This greated a nice flat area, on top of the shell, to start shaping.
 

 


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
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