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Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
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   Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
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   Author  Topic: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops  (Read 6795 times)
moose_the_caboose
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Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« on: Jan 18th, 2010, 12:06am »
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hi all,
 
yes, i made it home from the great cold of michigan!  many thanks to the hospitality of pockets and family...you're the best!  for those that don't know, pockets is one of the live steamers...one of a handful of folks, like the bcrr and the steam team folks...who've earned a deep and abiding friendship for putting up with me over the intervening years.  i count myself lucky to know such people that will guide, teach, countenance, listen, and even argue without the color of ego, self-import or self-interest.  i am humbled by their generosity of time and efforts on my behalf.
 
as the title of this thread indicates, there's a new 'critter' a'bornin'!  what will it be?  well....the final configuration has been decided on, but that's a surprize for the future!
 
okay, the backstory...several years ago, pockets and i sat down over a pot of coffee for some 'railroad talk'.  out of that conversation, two critters emerged, one for me, and another for him.  the two critters wouldn't be mirror images of each other, but unique unto themselves, reflecting our individual philosophies.  to that end, we both set out to collect some of the various parts and pieces that would be needed once construction could begin.  having done so, all that was needed was a shop set up to do so.  that goal remained elusive, until now.  the clam lake shops are now to a point to where some limited construction can take place.   only in the last year or two did the Moose Meadows Lumber Co come into play.  imagine my surprise this past week to find 'Moose Meadows' as part of the right-of-way for the clam lake railway!
 
as we have oft said, the live steam scales are journey unto themselves.  the journey that pockets and i have embarked on with this project is one of discovery for me...and for you.  while this thread is about a particular project (Moose Meadows Lumber Co #5), the skills presented are by far, to valued over the finished model, but make no mistake, this will be a model that i will cherish always. there will be those who would wish the 'easy' way to accomplish the 'look' of this particular critter, but the skills that pockets will present are those that will soon be forgotten if not passed on and practiced.
 
the photos below are NOT representative of the finished model, but contain elements of the models' design.  and btw, don't look for another 'goose'...bruce r's 'goose' by skip gage is too fine a model to copy.  all i will say is...you're gonna haftta keep watchin' to find out!  and come to think of it, don't ask when it will be finished.  we agreed that it will be finished when pockets says it is.  i'm satisfied that i can learn watching this craftsman at work.  i hope you enjoy watching as well.
 

 

 
 
Moose


« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2010, 12:10am by moose_the_caboose » Logged

moose_the_caboose
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #1 on: Jan 18th, 2010, 12:39pm »
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hi all,
 
pockets and i entered this project as a partnership...each doing what their strengths supported.  i have the easy part, materials support and electronic control systems.  pockets has the fun parts...copper-knocking and construction.  
 
normally, the start of a project like this would be to build the undercarriage and drive system, but with the planning that has been done, not so for this project.  it is pockets' craftmanship and attention to planning that allows us to leap-frog to some of the harder, skills-dependent detail elements.
 
so what's the first construction element?  a hammer-form for the radiator shell!  here's what pockets is building first.
 
we started with a full-size model t radiator shell to get the dimensions correct.
 


 
from those dimensions, we'll construct a hammer-form.  what's a hammer-form?  if you understand that certain metals like copper and brass are soft and malleable, you can hammer force them into new shapes.  the hammer-form imparts its shape on the metal when struck by various shaped hammers.  in skilled hands, metal can be shaped, thickened, thinned, stretched or shrunk.  think of what the black metal smiths did with hammer, anvil, and forge.  they built nations and made lifestyles like ours possible.  so what about our hammer-form?  look at the photo above, do you see the half-round bead that goes from one side around the top and then down the other side of the shell?  yeap, that's one of our first tasks.  
 
btw, do you see the pencil-lines on the full-size shell?  that's how we were able to determine the radii and tangents needed for duplication.  if look carefully, the full-size shell has 7 seperate elements built into it.  the model radiator shell will echo it.
 
now on to building the hammer-form.  under the copper-knocker's direction the carpenter cut out a rough shaping form and mounted it to a piece plywood.  the interior of the form was cut out to create the clamping ledges that will soon be needed.
 

 

 
here's a side-by-side comparison of the work so far:
 

 
gotta go grab so groceries...be back!
 
moose


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pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #2 on: Jan 18th, 2010, 2:18pm »
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Coppersmithing, like shooting, welding or any other skill combining art and science are perishable skills. Use 'em or lose 'em! It's been a few minutes since I have hammer formed copper, to any degree beyond a simple flange, so I'm re-learning a bit. Before we're finished with this critter we'll be hammer forming, spinning, soldering, brazing, boatbuilding and many other skills or arts.
 
The KEY is annealing. You can only beat on it so long before it gets brittle, fatigues and cracks on you. Then you get more copper and start over. Rght now, I'm working with fairly light metal, so I don't wait until I can feel it resisting my hammer taps. I anneal pretty frequently.
 
More later.
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
Dave_J
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #3 on: Jan 18th, 2010, 2:48pm »
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This looks interesting, so I will be subscribing to further posts.  I know I will learn something from your work.
 
Dave J.


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BobbyT
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #4 on: Jan 18th, 2010, 5:52pm »
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Alright! Now we got's ourselves a craftsman project. I am eagerly awaiting each installment.

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pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #5 on: Jan 18th, 2010, 6:40pm »
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Dave J, thanks for your interrest. I learn something every time I read one of Bruce R's posts or step into my shop.
 
Hi, Bobby. Don't get too excited, I'm not Jack Bodenman. We're all gonna learn something here. I promised this critter to ol' Moosey a while back. He just jogged me off dead center! BTW, that's a nice lookin' pike your puttin down for unka Bob.
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
moose_the_caboose
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #6 on: Jan 18th, 2010, 10:23pm »
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hi all,
 
to pick up where i left off...
 
the half-round bead that we wanted to impart to the copper was done by using 2 strips (1/8 inch thick) of oak.  both were put through a quarter-round router bit so when combined, they would equal the half-round 1/4 inch strips we needed.  why use 2 strips instead of bending a 1/4 inch strip?  due to the two tight corner bends, the thinner strips would be less likely to slpit, crack or break.  it should be noted that trying to bend dry seasoned wood around a form is awaiting disaster.  so what does an old woodworker and metalsmith do?  we took the strips and soaked/steamed them in hot water until plyable.  this step has to be done with care to keep the wood from becoming too saturated causing the grain to lose integrity.  the photo below shows the inner strip already bent and clamped around the form.  this process has to be done quickly because the wood loses heat and moisture is short order.  to continue with a bend when the wood isn't ready means it will split and break.  if you have to stop mid-bend, carefully re-steam the wood, but don't get it saturated any more than necessary.  it should stay under clamps unto all the moisture is gone and the 'set' has taken.
 

 
in the photo below, you can see that the 2nd strip has already been added.  it should also stay clamped until all moisture is gone and the 'set' has taken place.
 

 
here's another shot with the 2nd strip in evidence.
 

 
when the 'set' was achieved, the two strips were removed and glue applied between them.  the clamps insure a close tolerance set.  when dry, the two became one.  that's what pockets is showing below.
 

 
before the strip could be permanently attached to the form, an inset ledge was routered into the base of the strips.  this inset/offset matches an offset on the full-size radiator shell to accomodate the metal of the hoods.
 


 
we are good to this stage, but now is the time to check and fix any irregularities in the form.  the copper will pick them up like finger prints.
 
more tomorrow...stay tuned!
 
moose


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ErieAtlantic7597
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #7 on: Jan 18th, 2010, 11:40pm »
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   WOW!!! As you guys know, I have a soft spot for those kinds of rail vehicles. Nice idea. And even nicer workmanship.


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pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #8 on: Jan 19th, 2010, 9:06am »
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Thanks, Bruce. You were a part of the conversation all the time we were working on this, and probably will continue to be. There's no way that I would have the arrogance to try and instruct you in working with copper!
 
We have to make a firewood run in the next couple of days. We burned up all we had keeping Moosey warm!
 
Greg B.


« Last Edit: Jan 19th, 2010, 9:07am by pockets » Logged


Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
Steen_Rudberg
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #9 on: Jan 19th, 2010, 11:16am »
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This is going to be interesting.
 
I can't wait to see the next posts.
 
Moose: Good to se that you are QRV again. I have been waiting for signs of life  


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Steen Rudberg
Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement.
moose_the_caboose
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #10 on: Jan 19th, 2010, 8:06pm »
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hi all,
 
many thanks to you all for checking in on this project.  it feels good to be back in the shop again...even pockets' shop!
 
my favorite spot in the clam lake shops?
 

 
why?
 

 
beautiful....but COLD!!!!  btw, to the left and right in the foreground is 'moose meadows'!  further to the right is 'fairoak'...but i'll post more in the 'clam lake' thread.
 
moose the still chilled!
 


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moose_the_caboose
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #11 on: Jan 19th, 2010, 8:39pm »
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hi all,
 
back to the critter!  first to give you some perspective...since i haven't and won't mention scale until the appropriate time.
 

 
to aid in the work to come and to ensure the workpiece stayed in place, a foot was added.  the foot made it easy for the workpiece to be held in a vise.
 

 
the photo below shows the hammer-form held in the jaws of the vice.  the marks on the form indicate that the work of hammering the copper had already been accomplished.
 

 
here's the second round on hammer-forming.
 

 
and as pockets mentioned, one of many annealings necessary.
 

 
...and some of the many shaping dollies that come into play.  pockets can elaborate on the qualities of specific metals like copper, but what a joy it was to watch him thicken, smooth, and even thin the strip of metal that will become part of the 'moose meadows #5' critter!
 

 
moose


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moose_the_caboose
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #12 on: Jan 19th, 2010, 9:07pm »
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hi all,
 
last post for tonight!
 
one of the lessons i learned while attending the coppersmith classes at 'clam lake university' was that clamping is everything!  while hammering, the metal is under stress and wants to move...following the coppersmiths' corollary to one of newtons' laws.  you can use it to your advantage...or at least control it.
 

 
some additional working on the tight bends, moving the copper to where we wanted it.
 

 
although the workpiece is far from finished, the hammer-form has done its job.  now it's time for the use of some specialty dollies to complete and smooth to perfection.
 

 
enjoy,
 
moose


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BobbyT
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #13 on: Jan 19th, 2010, 10:32pm »
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great work guys

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ErieAtlantic7597
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #14 on: Jan 19th, 2010, 11:01pm »
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   Absolutely BEAUTIFUL !!!!!!!!


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Dick_Morris
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #15 on: Jan 19th, 2010, 11:11pm »
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Neat!
 
For those who want to work at 1/8 scale and are more comfortable with kit bashing plastic than with building from scratch, the 1932 Ford convertable that's been issued several times by Monogram, etc., gives a starting place. You can usually find one on Ebay. One of the small suppliers of 1/8 scale cast resin parts has been promising a 1932 Ford pickup truck body that would fit these for about ten years, but nothing yet.  The roadster would make a good inspection car, but a 1930s flat bed truck of about one ton using the pickup body with a large cargo box on the back, either radio control or with a coupler or link and pin coupled trailer for a rider would be really slick.


« Last Edit: Jan 20th, 2010, 4:04am by Dick_Morris » Logged
pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #16 on: Jan 20th, 2010, 7:04pm »
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Thanks Bobby and Bruce. Y'all's affirmation means a lot.
 
 Bruce, as you can see, there are a lot of wrinkles to be worked out. The only place for them to go is to shrink the surface area of the metal, thus thickening it in the curves. Working metal between hard surfaces (hammer & dolly) stretches it. Working between soft surfaces (soft faced hammers and wood) shrinks it. Just like back when we were frenching headlights and making hood scoops!
 
 
 
Dick, I'm familiar with the kits you are talking about. Even though they've been around for MANY years, I can remember when they hit the market .
 
Moosey doesn't want to talk about scale, yet, but a pair of MGD, long neck twelve packs will rattle around nicely in the back of this thing!!


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
ErieAtlantic7597
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
  HPIM3011.jpg - 48886 Bytes
« Reply #17 on: Jan 20th, 2010, 9:48pm »
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   Greg,
 
   I just could'nt help myself, I had to post this pic of the radiator shell on my Goose2. My dear departed friend, Skip Gage, made this shell from a solid plate of alluminum. Hand shaped and polished. I did the radiator honeycomb and cap. Of course, I made it from stuff that I work with. It is the covering of a filter from a hood over an electric range. The cap is from a arthritis rub on cream tube. (when I was finished with it)
 
   Anyhow, I thought this would cause a smile or two. I really like that shell of yours. Neat!


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/HPIM3011.jpg
Click Image to Resize

« Last Edit: Jan 20th, 2010, 10:09pm by ErieAtlantic7597 » Logged
pockets
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #18 on: Jan 21st, 2010, 8:10am »
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Bruce,  
I was hoping to see you post some pics of the Goose. Filter screen.... Hmm...
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
moose_the_caboose
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Re: Moose Meadows #5, from the Clam Lake Shops
 
« Reply #19 on: Feb 6th, 2010, 8:49pm »
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hi all,
 
sooooo many ideas flowing!  that's what i like to see!
 
well, of necessity, the particular thread will slow down and then speed up of it's own accord.  that's the way parts production works...patience.
in the last few weeks, i've been on the look out for model t parts.  the moose meadows #5 now has a hubcap that will be modeled and duplicated!
 

 

 
the hubcap shown above is from a later model t (1921-1924) and appears to be one of the hubcaps from the rear-axle (pockets).  i'll be speaking to some model t guys in the near future to confirm what i believe about it.  anywho, the cap will be patterned and cast in brass or copper, then bored and tapped to receive moose meadows #5's axles.
 
my part in this build is to find parts to duplicate...so i'm looking for an engine, windshield, radiator cap, and so forth.  the list is growing!
 
moose


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