Railfan.net Home Railfan Photos ABPR Archives Staff Safari Photos Railfan Links

Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums Railfan.net Forums
Welcome, Guest. Please Sign In or Register. May 29th, 2017, 11:20am
Categories •  FastIndex •  LongIndex •  Help •  Search •  Members  •  Sign In •  Register


Electric Loco Land!
   Railfan.net Web Forums
   Model Railroading
   Live Steam and Ride on Scales
(Moderators: moose_the_caboose, Brian Tusin)
   Electric Loco Land!
« Previous topic | Next topic »
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint
   Author  Topic: Electric Loco Land!  (Read 4236 times)
sonex761
TRAINing
Posts: 17
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #100 on: Jun 15th, 2009, 9:04pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

This is the one I used
 
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/product_p/ct-bdp100.htm
 
It is rated for 100 amps.  It does have 2 coils.  ON-ON.  One is energized for forward and the other for reverse.
 
Stephen


Logged
Dan Watson
Historian
Posts: 354
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #101 on: Jun 15th, 2009, 10:17pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Jun 15th, 2009, 9:04pm, sonex761 wrote:       (Click here for original message)
This is the one I used.
It is rated for 100 amps.  It does have 2 coils.  ON-ON.  One is energized for forward and the other for reverse.
Stephen

 
Stephen, thanks for the link.  I see some other (reversing) contactors that don't say anything about double coils, like this one:
 
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=dc88&Search.x=10&Search.y=8
 
Can I assume that it has a single coil, so OFF is forward, ON is reverse?
 
Moose, the Curtis controller I am using has a continuous amp rating of 20 and a max of 80.  I don't follow your concern about a runaway.  I'm not going to control the speed with the contactor, just the direction.  The controller has a "key switch" and a "kill switch", and would be in series with the contactor.  
Thanks for the idea about the solid state switch.  I may look into that if I can't find what I want with a mechanical/electrical device.
 
Dan


Logged
moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1474
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #102 on: Jun 16th, 2009, 4:01am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

hi all,
 
dan:  it's early, very early and i'm about to head into work.  about the use of 2 contactors...since others have used my loco, i've come to understand that having an independent kill switch is desired.  too often, somebody will mess with the control-head while sitting at the station.  i'll been lucky, i was able to catch it before it was too late.  i'm currently considering a single channel transmitter for use when i'm not the engineer.  i could sit anywhere on the train and still have command on whether or if the train moves.  that's the reason i mentioned the fail-safe contactor.
 
great subject, keep it up!  gotta get to work.
 
moose


Logged

sonex761
TRAINing
Posts: 17
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #103 on: Jun 16th, 2009, 9:27am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

It kind of looks to me like it is a double coil. You would have to contact them to know for sure.
 
Stephen


Logged
Benjamin Maggi
TRAINing
Posts: 4
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #104 on: Jul 24th, 2009, 5:37pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

I am starting on my first battery powered electric engine and I don't know much about electronics. I purchased a Ride Trains powered chassis and am looking at what I need to make it move. It will have two 280 watt motors for a combined wattage of 560W. I believe they are 12 volt motors. They will be wired in parallel, requiring 24 volts total. To power them, I will use two deep-cycle marine batteries wired in parallel to give off 24 volts.  
 
The problem is the motor controller. I have heard of Curtis and 4QD but I am not sure which one I need for my application. Also, even if I discovered what I wanted I need to know where I can purchase it.  
 
I have a friend who scratchbuilt his 44-tonner engine (not DG Marklin) and he is going to help me along. However, until I see him again I wanted to try and get a jump on locating a suitable motor controller.  
 
I am open to wheel chair controllers and golf car controllers too.  
 
By the way, here is the chassis I bought: (look at their 35T chassis on top)
http://ridetrains.net/news.htm
 
Here is the engine I will be building with the chassis:
http://www.middletonrailway.org.uk/rollingstock/91.htm
 
The dimensions match up pretty well. The cranks are cast into the wheels instead of seperate pieces, but with some red paint to pick them out I think it will look okay. The body should be fun. I plan to build it out of marine plywood.
 
Thanks for any help you can give.


« Last Edit: Jul 24th, 2009, 5:39pm by Benjamin Maggi » Logged

You cannot learn to swim if you don't get your feet wet!
moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1474
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #105 on: Jul 24th, 2009, 7:50pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

hi all,
 
benjamin:  lets tackle your problem one step at a time...it's easier to eat the elephant that way.
 
at 560 watts, you're putting about 3/4 hp under the hood.  i wish you were going to use 24vdc motors, but to quote pockets, "you dance with who ya brung."  as for controlling that electro-mechanical power there are two common avenues to consider.  first, if you are going to use 12vdc, then a 12vdc controller with lots of ampacity and heatsinking will be needed.  add to that, the additional problem of 12vdc controllers aren't that common.  yes, they are available (4qd pro-120 in 12 vdc), but if you need a new one in some far off city, you might be out of luck.  having said that, wiring for this mode is fairly straight forward.  you'll be dealing with a parallel circuit for just about everything.  
 
for a moment, let's talk about parallel vs series.  if you are going to run parallel, you are going to connect positive-to-positive and negative-to-negative.  it's a good way to match components, but makes using cheap controllers less than satisfactory when it comes to fine speed control.  the controller will still need to hold up under current load, but the motors will only have to handle what each requires.  most 12 vdc controllers have a low-voltage cut-off point set at @9 vdc (4qd especially).  when your batteries reach that point, the controller knows it can't take the current that the voltage level produces so it shuts off...you are done for the day(unless you cheat and install a separate 9 vdc power supply for the controller alone - not recommended).  think of it this way, high voltage-low current...low voltage-high current.  in a parallel set up, you  have a larger ampacity reserve and a narrow voltage reserve.  pulling constant high current through your motors and controller produces a lot of heat, damages the motor brushs, and shortens controller lifespan.  
 
okay, that's parallel, so how about series?  you'll be wiring negative-to-positive for 24 vdc.  not hard to do, but can be dangerous if you forget what you are doing.  there's enough power available in just one battery to weld with, what do you suppose two or three or even six would do?  when you use this method, you are quite literally stacking battery plates together to get the voltage you want(12/24/36/48/60+).   when you stack/wire 12 vdc motors this way, you'll add enough motors to equal the battery voltage.  in this mode, you have a larger voltage reserve and a smaller ampacity reserve.  remember high voltage-low current?  that's working for you here.  well, almost!  the problem this method poses for you is how the motors operate connected in series.  it's like having two dogs in the house that get along, but can have problems at mealtime.  one dog will just about always get more 'food' than the other.  while one motor is getting everything first, the second motor takes what it is given in lower voltage and pulls more current.  lower voltage-higher current...and the current path includes the first motor.  this is where having motors that you could replace the brushes comes in handy.
 
having talked about wiring, let's move on to controllers.  if you are desiring a controller to go forward/backward/stop/dynamic brake, then you'll need to spend a little money and opt for a 4-quadrant controller.  curtis instruments, 4qd, diversified electronics, and a few others offer such controllers.  for your purposes, i'd look for controllers from a 'personal-mobility' machine, a 4-wheel chair/scooter.  most of the larger scooters are powered by one or two 1/2 to 3/4 hp motors.  if you happen to find one that also has motorized seat adjusting, you've hit the jackpot(in a two drive motor system, you have a third drive motor capability,ect).  if you look back at the very first page of this thread, the skytrain locomotive utilizes one of the curtis instruments personal mobility controllers - model 1228 in 24 vdc.  this little controller does it all.  it's controlling two - 12 vdc motors with 24 vdc.  how?  this controller was meant for one drive motor and one seat motor.  there are two(or three) internal controllers that can be chained (24 vdc in - 12 vdc to each motor) together with special instructions from their tech-engineers.  the performance curves of this controller are programmable and will need to be set prior to operation.  that is accomplished by means of one of ci's programming wands.  while the system is fused externally, i set the internal circuit breaker to 50 amps.  the little controller is capable of 70 amps for short periods...no reason for me to push it that hard.  
 
benjamin, this is the point where you have to ask yourself if you want cheap or frugal.  frugal spends money where it will do the most good.  curts instruments controllers aren't cheap, but when wired and programmed properly, they'll give years and years of smooth, reliable fine-tuned motor control, that's frugal.  if you want cheap, try diversified electronics...i've known some that loved them and more than a few who thought they were the devil's spawn.  so far, i've given you the simplistic view.  there are other variations on a theme.  it becomes a matter of how much control you want for yourself.  each type of controller has its good points and bad.  for your application, the pmc's would give the most value.  i use and love golf cart controllers, they're heavy-duty and can supply enough current to a locomotive to pull the barn doors off their hinges (one of my upcoming projects).  no doubt, others will voice their opinions, but you know, what i built works.  a couple pictures of both locos are shown, one is a workhorse and the other a research vehicle.
 
this is the short version, but don't let this missive end your conversation...keep digging, planning, and asking questions!
 
btw, i've 3 more electrics left to build before i quit and become steam only.  the ge 23 tonner in 3 3/4" scale for me, another research vehicle, and some for pockets.  here's the ge 23 tonner.
 

 
moose  


« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2009, 1:24pm by moose_the_caboose » Logged

dgmarklin
Historian
Posts: 350
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #106 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 10:17pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

I'm liking the topic and look to be in the same boat after today's run...  
 
Moose:  I am wondering which 4QD motor controller you have used in the past...  I have looked at their website, am right now matter of fact, and really am overwhelmed.  Just some guidance to start with would be great!  Have you had experience with the pro-120?  
 
Benjamin Maggi:
I have been using the Curtis 1505 on my GE 44 tonner, it really worked well on the dynamic and sure kept up with her on the runs BUT, it has seemed to fail today, I will have to investigate further but I think shes dead.  We checked the controller against another motor and it barely spun the smaller 24 v motor too.  Nice thing about the curtis, CHEAP!  But the 1505 didn't have reverse causing issues down the line.
 
Any ideas on the 4QDs would be nice, my locomotive is coming together nicely, just working out bugs as they come along.
 
Keep up the good topic,
Dean


Logged

Dean
Dan Watson
Historian
Posts: 354
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #107 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 11:24pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Dean,
My loco also has the same Curtis controller, and so far so good.  Do you have a heat sink attached to it?
Dan


Logged
Benjamin Maggi
TRAINing
Posts: 4
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #108 on: Jul 25th, 2009, 11:53pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Moose,
I made a mistake. I checked with the manufacturer and they are 24 volt motors. Two of them at 280 watts each.


Logged

You cannot learn to swim if you don't get your feet wet!
moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1474
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #109 on: Jul 26th, 2009, 1:25pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

hi all,
 
dgmarklin:  email sent.  there are a number of possibilities to be checked.  it's really hard to kill a ci controller.  mind you, i've done it...well, i've had one explode!  things can go wrong even when you follow the process correctly.  i need a little more info about your setup, so once that is known, we can post here about troubleshooting and the solution.  electrics are easily built and fun to operate, but have a stiff learning curve when things go bad.
 
benjamin:  same controller advice applies.   all you will have to do is parallel the motors to the single motor terminals on the controller.  that's the easy part!   as to which model controller, again, same controller advice applies, just make sure that you purchase the 24 vdc or the 24 - 36 vdc model....do NOT buy a controller rated for dc voltages higher than the combo 24 -36 vdc.  you'll be wasting your money and your equipment.
 
about purchasing, go to the websites for both curtis instruments and 4qd, they have a list of their dealer networks.  for curtis instruments, you can go to just about any golf cart shop and order one.  don't forget that you are purchasing a personal mobility controller, so medical scooter supply houses are an option....an expensive option, but an option none the less.
 
about the 35-t chassis that you wish to use, i visited the website of the supplier...no i don't know him, nor have i met him or have i personally tried his equipment.  know this, the hobby is tolerant of just about anything that can make it down the pike.  the gentleman building the equipment has some good ideas, but i don't feel a lot of love for his execution.  i build equipment that i want to last my lifetime, his appears to have a 5 to 10 year lifespan.  if you look at his bare chassis construction, he went for the cheapest pillow-block bearings he could find.  maybe good enough for his purposes, but not for me.  the biggest clue for me was his 'aspiring engineer' comment about himself.  there are those of us that routinely have to fix mistakes that engineers make.  why?  because they are making design decisions about what will work at a specific price-point of their choosing.  i'm working with a few engineers who are really good at their craft, but what's convenient for them is usually a nightmare for the folks who have to build and maintain the project.   while i'm currently involved in the live steam hobby, i'm also 'herding' some engineers who are developing several research rail vehicles.  they design for form follows function, but i make sure that the components will have a long service life and can be maintained without cutting things apart.  yes, there are a couple engineers out there that i really admire...they were mechanics first!  
 
the 35-t chassis appears to be an opportunity for the builder to produce better work, but he's asking a lot on faith and NOT showing how the running gear is set up.  in exchange for a cheap price, he's asking for data, fair enough.  if it breaks, he'll probably replace, also fair enough, but it speaks of design for the minimum reliability, not the maximum.  i wish no ill will on anyone who's building stuff for the hobby, but why build for the short time, why not for several lifetimes?  our equipment should outlast us.  that's what legacy is about...being able to show future generations what can be accomplished.
 
ben, this project should be your steppingstone for guiding your steamer project.  the skills you learn about railroad geometry with this project will become invaluable on your next.  if the running gear on the 35-t is insufficient, change it!  make it your design...just think, you'll be maintaining it, not the original designer.  
 
forgive the rant, but building to minimum reliability standards just sets me off!  in some way, i hope you can see what i'm saying is the true...i want you to succeed.  i want your family to still possess and cherish your equipment as a rememberance when you're gone.  that won't happen with minimum standards, but the odds are definitely in your favorite for maximum standards.
 
moose
 
 
on Jul 25th, 2009, 11:53pm, Benjamin Maggi wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Moose,
I made a mistake. I checked with the manufacturer and they are 24 volt motors. Two of them at 280 watts each.



Logged

dgmarklin
Historian
Posts: 350
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #110 on: Jul 27th, 2009, 10:16pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Excerpt from my "1/8TH SCALE GE 44 TONNER MANUAL" :
 
Pg 5-
Troubling Shooting
 
1. Check the fuse.
 

 
WHOOPS!
 
In the mean time, I am rewiring my locomotive to make it cleaner and to prevent wires getting caught in moving parts.  Still waiting on my amplifier from Ebay for the sound card...
 
Hopefully back on the rails Saturday!
 
Dean


Logged

Dean
Henry
Historian
Posts: 6085
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #111 on: Jul 28th, 2009, 12:25pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Dean,
 
Glad to hear it is such a minor issue! Looks like the 44 Tonner is just training you
 
Henry


Logged
moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1474
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #112 on: May 25th, 2010, 6:42pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

hi all,
 
bringing this thread forward for our new posters to gander...
 
moose


Logged

moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1474
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #113 on: Nov 2nd, 2012, 9:33pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

bumped for another's project clarity.

Logged

moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1474
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #114 on: Nov 12th, 2012, 2:21pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

hi all,
 
i'm bringing this thread back for jib228's benefit....the planning of an electric loco.
 
jib228:  my apologies for the interuption in the flow of info to you.  life got in the way again.
 
anywho, in electric loco land, all real estate MUST be planned out!  it must be able to have someone troubleshoot it and it must keep high current flows away from milliamp flows.  in the photo below, you can see how i did the engineering model.
 

 
the pics that follow are of the rebuild of the ge 44 tonner for a good friend of mine.  as you look through them, note that the pics are in the early stages for the rewiring.
 

 

 

 

 
the 44 tonner also included a sound card and amp system, both of which were separated from the drive electrics to isolate them from noise problems.
 

 
for a nice installation, ease of troubleshooting and lower levels of frustration, your real estate should be first and formost in your design criteria.  you must:  create heatsink methodologies, keep the circuitry neat (for your benefit), keep high current wire runs short and utilize the space you have available.  and....oh yeah....make it fool-proof so that you can deal with any problem that arises...like separation of your loco from the train.  this is where many all-in-one systems, err.  you MUST always plan for a runaway!  one of my personal locos use anderson connectors to connect main power to the motor.  if the loco leaves the service car (battery and controller), the anderson connectors sever and the power is shut off.  i've always tried to make sure that the first riding car and service car have a drawbar connecting them.
 
so, whatta ya got in terms of real estate, how do you want to utilize it, and what safeties have you thought about building in?


Logged

fresnojay
TRAINing
Posts: 21
Re: Electric Loco Land!
  CAM00046.jpg - 134250 Bytes
« Reply #115 on: Feb 28th, 2014, 1:06am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

It's been a long time since I posted last on these boards and have had a lot happen both in and out of the hobby since then.  
 
Anyhow I have started and am about half way through my first loco build. It is a model of the Lehigh Portland Cement 23T Boxcab. It is a prototype test build of a friends design for possible future DIY production run. It started as a water jet cut chassis frame and body set. Deck is 5/8" steel with 3/8" side frames and man is it HEAVY. It will be electric powered (hence the post in this section). It has taught me a lot so far and will continue to do so. As a side note my deciding to take on this project came from a wealth of knowledge I acquired last year during a complete rebuild of a friends Conner Beam engine and its consist.
 
Anyhoo going to try and upload some pics of my project.
 
Jason


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/CAM00046.jpg
Click Image to Resize

« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2014, 1:08am by fresnojay » Logged
fresnojay
TRAINing
Posts: 21
Re: Electric Loco Land!
  CAM002071.jpg - 269088 Bytes
« Reply #116 on: Feb 28th, 2014, 1:11am »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Ok here is another of where it currently is as of end of work today as I can only get 1 pic per post it seems.
 
Jason



Image exceeds display size of 900 pixels wide. (269088 bytes, 998x740 pixels)


Click Here to View Image CAM002071.jpg - 269088 Bytes


Logged
moose_the_caboose
Moderator
Historian
Posts: 1474
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #117 on: Feb 28th, 2014, 6:33pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

on Feb 28th, 2014, 1:11am, fresnojay wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Ok here is another of where it currently is as of end of work today as I can only get 1 pic per post it seems.
 
Jason

 
wow jason, you are moving along!  keep it coming and keep posting!


Logged

fresnojay
TRAINing
Posts: 21
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #118 on: Mar 1st, 2014, 9:42pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Thanks Moose. Its been a long time in coming and can't wait to be able to run it. Its great to see something coming to life after all this time.
 
Jason


Logged
BobbyT
Historian
View Profile  

Posts: 601
Re: Electric Loco Land!
 
« Reply #119 on: Mar 2nd, 2014, 5:18pm »
Quick-Jump   Reply w/Quote   Modify

Jay, That looks like a nifty little critter kit. I like it. Please keep the updates coming.

Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7  ReplyReply     EMail TopicEMail Topic   PrintPrint

« Previous topic | Next topic »