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Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
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   Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
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   Author  Topic: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose  (Read 29346 times)
moose_the_caboose
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #940 on: Feb 12th, 2010, 7:42pm »
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hi all,
 
the dry spell is over, i'm back in the shop.  i've used my 'way-back' machine to pull a project forward so i can complete it.  alex watson's bobber caboose has been sitting on the build track in my shop for months and months due to my health issues.  well, with the winter meet fast approaching it's time he got it back once and for all.  now here are some views from the time machine.
 
from the very beginning...
 

 
to his first view of the 2 axle buggy...
 

 
and a picture from the 'family' album..
 

 
to alex's reaction to seeing it semi-finished...
 

 
i said semi-finished because it still needed windows and the external lanterns installed.  sometime back, i started several trials at creating them, but life got in the way.  in doing this type of thread, i made a promise to myself to show my work, warts and all.  my first attempts were okay for studies, but not what i wanted alex to have.  see the pics below...
 

 
so tonight, i'm posting a couple pictures of what was done in the shop this afternoon...better than before, but not quite finished.  with additional honing of my copper techniques and some imagination when applying details, i think alex will be happy to have waited.
 

 

 
the two photos above show one of the lantern housings just as it came off the brake.  i've still got some clean up work to do before the joints are soldered and i've got to refine the lens housing, but i think that the learning curve has re-started.  now, what direction am i going with it?  something a kin to the photo below.
 

 
btw, the windows were completed long ago...now it's time to get the lanterns done!  the actual lamps are complete, but i need to photograph them for you.
 
later!
 
enjoy,
 
moose the caboose


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pockets
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #941 on: Feb 13th, 2010, 2:13pm »
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Not so much for Moosey, cause we've had this conversation: Please notice that even with the dings wnd wrinkles, how crisp and sharp the lines of the prototype are. One must use much thinner stock, and a correspondingly smaller bend radius, to achieve the same appearance in scale sizes.
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
Dick_Morris
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
  lamp.jpg - 28345 Bytes
« Reply #942 on: Feb 13th, 2010, 4:06pm »
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My skills and tooling for bending sheet metal are limited. As an alternative, I used thicker stock and silver soldered a headlight box together. The box is 4" tall and made from 1/16" brass. Hobby shop brass "L" and #1 or #2 screws were used from the inside to hold the box together for silver soldering. When done, the ends of the screws were filed flush on the outside as were the ends of the side sheets which were left a few thousandths long to give a sharp edge after filing. Now that I have a stout box I will probably apply the raised panels with soft solder, although following Moose's drawing they could be machined from 1/8" or 3/16" material and riveted in place. Brass escutceon nails make nice tiny rivets, but even some I have with .100" heads are a bit big for this application in 1/8 scale.  


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/lamp.jpg
Click Image to Resize

« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2010, 4:17pm by Dick_Morris » Logged
Dick_Morris
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
  lamp2.jpg - 31901 Bytes
« Reply #943 on: Feb 13th, 2010, 4:19pm »
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A close up of the els and screws.

http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/lamp2.jpg
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« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2010, 4:20pm by Dick_Morris » Logged
pockets
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #944 on: Feb 13th, 2010, 6:58pm »
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Dick, I have one, in 3-3/4" scale, about half finished using your technique.
 
Tip: Shop the housewares department of the large chain stores for stainless steel bowls. They make great reflectors for this style lamp. Measuring spoons or cups may work for 1.5 / 1.6 scale.
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
Steam290
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
  Pedestal_P-2078-C-ver_10_acad_2010_Model_1_510x660.jpg - 12683 Bytes
« Reply #945 on: Mar 26th, 2010, 3:06pm »
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Hi Dick,
 
I was running through this thread and your passenger car truck construction caught my attention. I am in the initial phases of building some wood beam caboose trucks. I have attached a picture of my pedestal design. I have been using AutoCAD's 3d capabilities. Did you do your own design and have them cast? Same with the journal boxes? One of my next steps is to draw up a journal box.  
 
Did you cast any extra journal boxes? If you were willing and I could piggyback off your efforts, I'd appreciate not having to draw up a journal box and reinvent the wheel so to speak.  
 
Are you going to use roller bearings or a fluid film bearing in your boxes. I'd love to hear more on your design.
 
Thanks,
 
Dale
 
on Dec 16th, 2009, 3:35am, Dick_Morris wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Life got in the way for most of the summer, but I've finally had some time to spend on rail projects. In the photo I'm starting to fit the parts together for my eighth scale, 7 foot wheelbase passenger car truck. The only parts shown that didn't come to me as raw material are the bolts and nuts. I'll be using the same parts to build a pair of 6 foot wheelbase caboose trucks for a circa 1870 Central Pacific caboose. The prototype drawings are from "Railway Car Construction," William Voss, 1892 and reprinted by Newton Gregg as "Train Shed Cyclopedia," No. 39.  
 
Moose, sorry to hear that health issues sidelined you but glad to hear you are on the mend. I just reread this entire caboose thread as well as the other car building material you wrote in the Largo thread. I'm looking forward to your future efforts.
 
 
 



http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/Pedestal_P-2078-C-ver_10_acad_2010_Model_1_510x660.jpg
Click Image to Resize

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Steam290
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
  Pedestal_P-2078-C-ver_10_acad_2010_Model_1_510x660.jpg - 12683 Bytes
« Reply #946 on: Mar 26th, 2010, 3:07pm »
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Guess my photo didn't make it.
Trying again,
Dale


http://Forums.Railfan.net/Images/LiveSteam/Pedestal_P-2078-C-ver_10_acad_2010_Model_1_510x660.jpg
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Dick_Morris
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #947 on: Mar 27th, 2010, 1:06am »
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I based the pedestals on a Master Car Builder's standard design. They were published in several volumes of the Car Builder's Cyclopedia. Google Books has several volumes, including 1895. The pedestal is at Figure 5481.  
 
I made patterns and cast my own. There are a couple of photos of the patterns and castings as well as one of the prototype drawings in this thread - http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=LiveSteam;action=display;num=1244324352;start=
 
The journal boxes are from another MCB drawing from a Cyclopedia.
 
The castings are pretty close to scale but I fudged a bit and made the jaw slightly overscale to fit the bearings. I'm using 3/8" ID by 7/8" OD ball bearings.  (From an ebay description - 1604 2RS Double Sealed Bearing 3/8" x 7/8" x 11/32".) The pedestal jaw opening is a few thousandths wider than 1" and the journals are 1". These are the only ball bearings that I've found that allow the journals to be pretty close to scale. Others have used needle bearings sucessfully but I have a hang-up about the possibility of dirt getting into them. Hopefully the 1" width leaves enough wall thickness that I won't wear through the sides too quickly. Although the axle diameter may seem small, it steps up to about 7/8" next to the bearing. I checked the specs on the bearing and was comfortable that eight of these bearings would carry the weight of my cars which are relatively early designs and fairly small.
 
I didn't cast any extras. In fact I need to cast some more. I had to make a bit of a detour to make a better foundry. I was using a hot plate, propane torch, and stainless steel sauce pan for the relatively low temperature alloy I used. It worked OK but was slow and not very efficient. The first batch of castings were pretty labor intensive, expecially the cores. I'm doing some different things with the second batch that should make the castings less labor intensive. However, I'm not sure I want to make  more castings than I plan on needing for my own projects. At eight per car, they add up quickly. I made an RTV mold of master wooden pattern and the actual patterns are urethane resin castings. I might be willing to pour an extra pattern or two if you want to pursue casting your own.
 
Both the pedestals and journals started life as a chunk of plywood or MDF with a photocopy of the prototype drawing at the right scale glued onto them. After cutting them to the rough size and shape, the final shaping was done with a table top belt sander and some sand paper and the other bits were glued in place until they looked like the appropriate part. I just marked up the protype drawings with the (more or less) scale dimensions for my working drawings for making the patterns and machining the castings. I can probably make a copy of the annotated drawings.
 
A while back I started a thread on cars for the Alaska Central RR. My plan is to describe building the trucks and then go onto the frames and car bodies as I build them, but I haven't been able to dedicate any further time to it. So many projects - so little time.
 
Your drawings look good. There is one thing I did differently. Instead of having the journal bear only on the inside and outside edge of the pedestal, I left the inside of my pedestal jaws flat so there is contact all the way across. I think this will give me a larger wearing surface and this area will be hidden when the truck is assembled.


« Last Edit: Apr 18th, 2010, 10:41pm by Dick_Morris » Logged
Steam290
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #948 on: Apr 18th, 2010, 5:33pm »
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Hi Dick,
 
Thanks for all the great tidbits of info. I also looked at the other thread that you referred to. I am impressed with all of the casting work that everyone is doing.  
 
Wish I was closer to you. I'd volunteer as a helper to give you a hand just to see how you did it all and gain some experience.
 
I do see what you mean about the bearing sizes. Those bearings you found on Ebay are quite reasonable. My pedestal scaled down ends up being 0.950". So at this point, I'm not sure which way I'm going to go.  
 
There are other later edition car builder's cyclopedias available at www.archive.org.
 
Dale
 
Also with too many projects and too little time.


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moose_the_caboose
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #949 on: Apr 18th, 2010, 7:54pm »
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hi all,
 
i've taken some time away from this thread to think about the direction i want to take it next.  in the postings above this one by dick & dale, the direction is to model older railcars via the trucks they ran on.  considering the stagnation of the hobby, i couldn't agree more.  i find myself looking at equipment dating from the 1870's to the 1910's.  to be sure a time in railroading when danger rode the rails, but also when for me, there was more diversity in how equipment was built.
 
as most of you know, i always seem to have more projects in the wings...doesn't everybody?  there are several that are being done (ever so slowly) for publication and then there's the project i want to do for those whose eyes have watched as i've grown here on railfan and equally important, for my dad.  my dad hired on with the seaboard air line railroad which led to my love of trains.  as we take notice of those in his generation, we note that they had a work ethic that drove them to do great things at home and abroad.  i've talked in the past of doing a seaboard caboose, now is the time to do it...after all, my dad's generation isn't getting any younger.  
 
the creative space that i've wanted to find myself (and catch up to pockets) is building a caboose in board-on-board fashion.  that is the task i set for myself and only for myself.  this project will for me, be the lead-in for a project that will be the collaboration for common parts for dale, myself and charlie on some cbq equipment.  more on that at a later time.  suffice it to say, this is going to be a hell of a journey.  i've set some goals to be good enough at what i do in order to be able to build a couple passenger cars for the clam lake.  that's a tall order!
 
in choosing a car to do, i face a dilemma...to do this one, a car that my dad would recognize and take comfort with...
 

 
or this one...one of the pre-war cabs...and a side-door car to boot...my favorite.  this one is just rich with detail!
 

 
i know what i want to do and i know what i should do...let the research begin.
 
moose
 


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pockets
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #950 on: Apr 18th, 2010, 9:37pm »
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Wow,
Check out the ladders, grabs and steps on 49880... What a widow maker!!!
 
Build 'em side by side    
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
BobbyT
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #951 on: Apr 18th, 2010, 9:38pm »
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George,  
 
As I recall, the Seminole Gulf was using an old ACL or Seaboard (I can't remember which) side door caboose as a yard office. I cannot recall if it still had the cupola or not. But next time you are down here we can take a field trip and check it out and grab measurements. Maybe we can grab Bruce R. as he may be able to get us access to it.


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moose_the_caboose
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #952 on: May 9th, 2010, 7:48pm »
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hi all,
 
even as the seaboard is getting some time from the research dept, the bobber caboose is still in the shop.  to that end, i've been putting some effort into getting it ready to return home.  this particular project has languished for far longer than i would like, but alex knows i won't return a project i'm not happy with.  so as i've done numerous studies on how to build locomotive lamp-housings with repeatable results, the time has come to just get done and back in his hands.
 
in the beginning, i was thinking about doing a brass or copper box with wood appliances attached to it.  after trying...as i said...'numerous' times to do everything in brass shim sheet, it has occurred to me that like the folks that i mentor, i need to take it one step at a time and build on the skills that i acquire.  i need more practice with metal working.  sooner or later, i'll be where i want to be with my metal skills.  
 
for alex's bobber, i went back to my original way of doing it with a copper box and wood appliances.
 

 
in the photo below, the lamp-housings are in 1st primer.  as soon as they have a minimum 72 hour hardening, i'll wet sand them, add the smaller details and take care of any fill blemishes before final priming.
 

 
so while the housing were hardening, i went back into the shop to do something i've never done by myself before, create lamp reflectors.  i'd  planned on using pockets suggestion of a kitchen spoon as my primary plan, but this afternoon an idea struck that i couldn't refuse.  i blame no one for the results save for myself...the result are crude, but you can see how it works.  some of our family members were talking about a time when we went to busch gardens and stopped in the bazaar...the brass shop to be exact.  i thought about how facinated i was to watch this guy take a flat piece of brass and slowly tap it into a bowl.  now jump forward to my january trip to visit with pockets and his family...to the great time he and i spent in his shop creating a hammer-form.  well, my hammer-form is just the wood handle to one of jorgensen clamps.  
 
with a small round of shim brass in my left hand, i slowly tipped and beat the outer edge around the lowest contour of the handle.  pockets is right, the work will tell you when it's time to  anneal...and anneal i did, more than 6 times.  i also learned that there is a time when even one tap is too many!
 

 
here's a look at how i was doing it.   crude at best and i've got more beating to go, but fun!  and no i don't have all the fancy hammers, but ya gotta start somewhere.
 

 
here's a look at the raw shim stock and the first reflector.  i still have to learn how to smooth and polish, but guess it will be one step at a time...so this has been one of my first steps.
 

 
...and for my final trick for today...an approximation of how the reflector will work with the lamp.  i still have to make the bracket that holds the reflector.  the lamp's tank-body is on a stalk that fits through the caboose roof and guides the grain-o-rice bulb wiring to the control system.
 

 
gettin' late and work starts early tomorrow...enjoy!
 
moose-with the cut up fingers!
 


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pockets
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #953 on: May 9th, 2010, 8:10pm »
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Way to go, Moosey! Tin knockin' is huge fun and you'll soon have the scars to prove it. Remember, when workin' sheet metal, if ya ain't bleedin', ya just ain't tryin'.....
 
Don't forget, anneal, anneal and ANNEAL.
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
moose_the_caboose
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #954 on: May 14th, 2010, 10:28pm »
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hi all,
 
i'm still working on the reflectors for the bobber caboose...here's a look at how the second one roughed in.
 

 
the lamp-housings still have some smoothing and priming left to do, then i'll add the more delicate details before the color coat is put on.
 
enjoy,
 
moose-the-fingersore!


« Last Edit: May 20th, 2010, 5:54pm by moose_the_caboose » Logged

pockets
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #955 on: May 15th, 2010, 10:30am »
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Lookin' pretty good, George. What's the brass box for?
 
Greg B.


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Mechanical engineers build weapons, whereas civil engineers build targets.

When the man at the door said," Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms", I, naturally assumed it was a delivery!
Slipped_Eccentric
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #956 on: May 15th, 2010, 11:06am »
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If you REALLY wanted to go nuts, you could make them work...
 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/111777/afv/topic/afpgj/4/Default.aspx#129678
 
And how I made reflectors
http://www.mylargescale.com/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/11/aft/112930/Default.aspx


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Expatriate Floridian in Pennsylvania.
moose_the_caboose
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #957 on: May 16th, 2010, 12:19am »
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hi all,
 
slipped eccentric:  NOW THAT'S NOT FAIR!!!  you did an incredible job on your reflector and we had to go else where to see it!   first, let me say that i'm impressed with your inventiveness and second, i'm doubly impressed with your willingness to try something out of the ordinary...then  again, i know your family.  give them my best when you see them!
 
i'll brought over a couple of pictures of his reflector to show what he's talking about....with luck, we can get him to talk more about it.
 
 
on May 15th, 2010, 11:06am, Slipped_Eccentric wrote:       (Click here for original message)
If you REALLY wanted to go nuts, you could make them work...
 
http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/aff/11/aft/111777/afv/topic/afpgj/4/Default.aspx#129678
 
And how I made reflectors
http://www.mylargescale.com/tabid/56/afv/topic/aff/11/aft/112930/Default.aspx

 
starting with the raw materials...with centering aid in place.
 

 
starting the process of spin-forming with the raw material held tight to the spin form and with the forming bar (screwdriver i think) being leveraged against the tool post.
 

 
shown with the spun reflector still attached to the spin form.
 

 
reflector off of the spin form ready for the next set of processes.
 

 
and yes, it really does work!
 

 
now here's a side-by-side comparison of the two processes...on the left is an example of spin-forming and on the right is my attempt at hammer-forming.  on the left, the precision is built into the machines by the designer while on the right the precision is built into an individual through long practise and art.  there's no question of turning out multiple copies of spin-forming to a high degree of precision, repeatability and time-saving.  hammer-forming is time consuming, requiring patience and practised art.   well, i just like the feel of pounding metal!
 

 
slipped eccentric: your reflector is wonderful!  it was created by a process very much practised today.  while not an easy process to master if you are working with a complex pattern, it is one that we can all learn.  please do take a few minutes and talk about the creative process you used for the reflector.
 
pockets:  the brass box is the base of one of the lamp-housings.  when it comes time to service the lamp (change the bulb), i want to have clear access to the lamp's base.  it also makes it much easier to attach the lamps to the catwalk.
 

 
enjoy slipped eccentric's work...i am!
 
moose


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Slipped_Eccentric
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #958 on: May 19th, 2010, 6:34pm »
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Thank you for the compliments!  You do bring up a great point, too.  I am probably going to make up to a dozen of these reflectors, and spinning is great for that.  If it were only going to be one or two like yours I probably would have just pounded them out just like you did.  It's still in the R&D phase, but I may make the reflector shallower like yours are as it seems more appropriate for the period.  If anyone has any questions I can open up another thread so as not to highjack this one too much.

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Expatriate Floridian in Pennsylvania.
moose_the_caboose
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Re: Building Live Steam Railcars with Moose the Caboose
 
« Reply #959 on: May 20th, 2010, 6:36pm »
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hi all,
 
justin:  a thread on 'tin-spinnin' and 'tin-knockin' would be great!  gotta keep learnin' new things!  btw, your work in the smaller scales is beautiful!
 
on May 19th, 2010, 6:34pm, Slipped_Eccentric wrote:       (Click here for original message)
Thank you for the compliments!  You do bring up a great point, too.  I am probably going to make up to a dozen of these reflectors, and spinning is great for that.  If it were only going to be one or two like yours I probably would have just pounded them out just like you did.  It's still in the R&D phase, but I may make the reflector shallower like yours are as it seems more appropriate for the period.  If anyone has any questions I can open up another thread so as not to highjack this one too much.

 
 
moose


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